Why do picks do so much damage?

[Silveredge]

This was the exact same issue people had with the Mace.  The pathetic reach of the weapon was the balancing factor.  And it was nerfed with less damage, less speed, and less weight(for knockdown).  Except with the steel pick you also have a shield that autoblocks for you.  The steel pick does an incredible amount of damage.  One thing that I shouldn't point out for people is that when you use a weapon with pathetic reach you're suceptible to kicks.  Nobody understood that balance, we had to be ignorant and dole out the nerfs.  So I support leveling the playing field and nerfing one handers that do as much damage as 2h's while still letting the player have a shield.  Rest in peace 2h Mace.

[Phew]

Any mediocre player can make a 24/15 STF char, grab a greatsword, and be near the top of the scoreboard every round.

Some top players can excel with a pick/warhammer/etc, but the average joe that tries a short 1-hander will spend most of their time whiffing due to the short reach, getting hit in the back of the head by teammates as they facehug their enemies, and/or getting kicked. Even the top players generally have to go heavy agility to be effective with the short 1-handers, making them so fragile that a 2-hander can one-shot them if caught unaware.

I tried a generation with a Steel Pick, and I wasn't very effective at all. Facehugging is just too hazardous, thanks to kicks and teamwounds.

[Silveredge]

Wat?

Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps...  Not seeing them "having" to go high agility.  And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?

With a 1h sword you can stay out of kick range.  Like I said, the short weapons should suffer the risk of getting hit by kicks because of the damage they do... however, if you're smart with your footwork and directions it's really hard for them to land kicks.

[HarunYahya]

Just wondering why they are so damn effective compared to all other weapons as far as raw damage and speed are concerned.

Using a hammer is kind of pointless... because if you use a pick you will land hits more often (speed) and kill in equal or less swings (damage).

For example, the BEST 1h stabbing weapon, the espada, does 30 damage base. Steel pick however does 32 damage.


I like the idea of having so many different types of weapons that you can really find a niche, but the pick imho has a bit too much goodness compared to other weapons in the same class.

/kick dead horse

Simple.
Steel pick has a unique design which let's you penetrate armor and rip off internal organs with a single hit .
You can create a hole in plate armor with every hit by using steel pick.
Maces are more likely used to daze the enemy they rarely hit the flesh inside the armor but the momentum they deal to armor is enough to daze,stun or take the breath away from a knight which leads to dealing a killing blow with a dagger when the knight is laying down in the ground.

To deal damage on a plated knight with a sword (Espada for example)
You need to find weakspots such as armpits and connection zones of plates and stab your sword through those places which are protected with mail and hardened ladder only.
You can't penetrate armor for example steel cuirass with a stabbing sword because the lenght and flat design of the sword will not gonna handle the recoil of the impact and shatter.
Swinging a steelpick is faster and more powerful then making a straight stab with a sword therefore pick can easily penetrate armor.

This is why steel pick deals huge damage against armored people.
Since most of the people use armor it seems overpowered and some 2handers can cry about the damage.

Problem is you just ignore technologic development of medieval era.
When greatswords and huscarl axes were powerful and "overpowered" best knights were wearing chain mail armor while less important troops wear only hardened leather armors.
Big axes were used to counter footmen with big shields.

Then soldiers began wearing full plates and weapon technology evolved to be able to damage those guys which gave history bec de corbins , picks,maces , poleaxes etc

Then gunpowder founded and very good mixture of steel were produced therefore instead of wearing heavy plate armors , knights started to wear cuirasses which cover your chest and have very much weakspots at neck,armpits,shoulders and ankles. People started to use sidesword,long espada type weapons to kill those men by using their many weakspots.


Now you are crying because you can't kill a knight who wears an armor which is 300 years ahead of your weapon.
Which looks silly
Same as crying because you can't shoot an F-22 Raptor with KAR-98 infantry rifle.

[Phew]

Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps...  Not seeing them "having" to go high agility.  And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?

You're only proving my point, that it takes an exceptional player to excel with a pick. Manowar and San would wreck with a practice dagger. Every round you can find multiple "scrubs" wielding greatswords near the top of the scoreboard, but whenever a pick user is up there, it's usually a high level, veteran player with a ton of looms.

And yes, the shorter the weapon, the more frequently you get teamhit. I shouldn't have to explain this.

[Turboflex]

Pick is really hard to use in open areas. I like to think I am pretty effective with my 73 length axe but on battle servers dropping down to 64 length is just way too low. I don't think it's that OP, on NA at least the only guy who really rapes with it is San and he is good enough he'd own with any weapon.

On Siege a pick is better, as long as you mostly stick to fighting is small, enclosed areas like walls, turrets, doorways and gatehouses.

[Silveredge]

You're only proving my point, that it takes an exceptional player to excel with a pick. Manowar and San would wreck with a practice dagger. Every round you can find multiple "scrubs" wielding greatswords near the top of the scoreboard, but whenever a pick user is up there, it's usually a high level, veteran player with a ton of looms.

And yes, the shorter the weapon, the more frequently you get teamhit. I shouldn't have to explain this.

I like how you glossed over my point about you saying 1h's have to have high agility.  These players do not have high agility, I'm sorry I had to spell it out.  For referring to people as "scrubs" I'm not even sure who you are.  I really don't see greatsword using "scrubs" near the top of the scoreboard every round.  The ones I do see at the top "every round" are, at the very least, player's who know what they're doing.  The only real true scrubs that I see sometimes doing quite well are those random bad players with a shield who find a ton of other bad players without a shield.  They walk up holding block, the other player hits their shield very slowly, and then gets killed by slow random attacks.  You can see the shielder doesn't even know what attack is coming out, he's just attacking, then holding block.  It's rather funny to watch.  This only happens at extreme times (early/late)when you have less people who know what they're doing.

You get teamhit by bad swings or your own sporadic movement that an average level player can't and shouldn't try to predict when trying to get a hit in, I shouldn't have to explain this.

[Phew]

Silver, I'm not going to get into an internet pissing contest with you. I'm sorry some skilled players occasionally kill you with a very specialized 64 length weapon, but that doesn't mean that picks are the scourge of overpoweredness you make them out to be.

I thought to myself a couple months ago "mauls are OP on siege". To test my hypothesis, I made a STF mauler (having never even played a 2H char before), and sure enough, I could close my eyes and smash overheads on top of a ladder/in a doorway and top the scoreboard.

Have you tried a steel pick alt to see its strengths/limitations firsthand? I didn't have much fun during my generation with a steel pick, looms and all. Constant teamwounds, glances on overheads, and getting owned by the S key.

[Silveredge]

Obviously you never read my posts, since I kept pointing out that people aren't getting that the short weapon is balanced because of the reach, thats why it hits really hard.  I pointed out thats why my mace (70 reach) previously did great damage.  So with the irony of others now wanting the pick nerfed, I made it clear that I could care less if it got nerfed.  Yes, I mained a shielder for quite a few gens.  Easiest blocking I've ever done.  Takes a little more to kill people, but having the shield is a great trade-off.  Whenever I touched the pick, not even loomed, it wrecked everything it touched.  My build used 7 PS.

EDIT:

I'm sorry some skilled players occasionally kill you with a very specialized 64 length weapon, but that doesn't mean that picks are the scourge of overpoweredness you make them out to be.

I'm still confused where this came from.

[Phew]

Obviously you never read my posts, since I kept pointing out that people aren't getting that the short weapon is balanced because of the reach, thats why it hits really hard.  I pointed out thats why my mace (70 reach) previously did great damage. 

I'm sorry your weapon got nerfed, but that shouldn't be justification for nerfing the steel pick also. Mace was nerfed because it was head and shoulders above the other 1-slot sidearms for archers/xbowmen. When they nerfed the mace, they should have added a 2-slot version with better stats.

[Silveredge]

I think both weapons were/are fine.  But I'm fine with the longsword and 1 stack of bolts, I used the mace because it allowed me 2 stacks of bolts and was a good weapon.  Despite the fact I had to constantly block against polearms/greatswords before I could get 1 swing in.  Now there is no reason for any ranged to use the mace, they would get better utility from having 1h wpf and having access to the 1h maces that are now superior to the mace as well as all the other weapons that are 1 slot.  You had 2 choices with 2h wpf, now you have 1, the langes messer is a better weapon than the mace after the nerf.  You get the same mace but the ability to use a shield with the iberian.  But anyway, this post is about the pick, which I think does an awesome amount of damage, but I don't necessarily believe it deserves a nerf.  However as I said, after experiencing the mace nerf, I don't care if the same thing happens to the pick.  At least they have a shield to fall back on.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Woooo, 27-12 shielder scrubs ftw!

Why the hell is the military hammer not also a 2h mode? 80 length, should be a 2h with X.....just a thought.

I like using short weapons as a Str shielder. But, I also only play siege or dtv, so its all about crammed bodies, tight spaces, reduced whiffing 1h, and high damage/knockdown.

Sounds hot.

[Vodner]

Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps...  Not seeing them "having" to go high agility.  And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?

Mano uses an Italian, which has decent reach. If you have a high ath 2h build and you hate fun, then it is entirely possible to beat San in a duel by spending the entire fight backpedalling and kicking. Why anybody would play in such an boring manner is beyond me, though.

[San]

^I can confirm this, as long as you can block and kick decently well, it can become a test of patience. Flowchart/formulaic fights are generally unfun, would prefer to see some dynamic play and learning mid-fight.

Having low agility is from a time where I made a wager with someone on the forums about how slow you can be with a short weapon. My ideal with the steel pick would probably be 21/21 for an overall build and 18/24 for a specialty build (high level only). I experienced a pretty large performance gain from switching from 27/12 steel pick to 24/15 back last fall.

The 1h blunt/pierce look particularly powerful because of the lack of highest tier blunt/pierce weapons for other weapon types. Some of them even got nerfed, like the bec de corbin. However, you still see ridiculously powerful and short weapons like the great maul and morningstar, and some mid-tier weapons like the bar mace that all have pretty respectable damage.