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1

General Discussion / Re: Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 04, 2012, 12:55:56 pm »

Why only 2 weeks ago I ninjed the siege server for 2 hours with Hospitaller. I planted a good half dozen forward bases right on top of the flag. One map was over in under 30 seconds. That's when I worked out the thing was FUBAR and needed a patch and I stopped building them inside (more or less. I've done it about 3 times since then).

Like poop said, should we just remove pole arms until we can fix polestagger? The solution wasn't to just destroy my class, the solution was to fix the Forward Base, and if it was going to take time make that thing not spawn. This is just a blanket ban on my class. We've already been kicked in the balls, I mean nerfed twice.

If you don't know about ye olde history of siege gear it goes like this. Once upon a time a single man could easily build almost anything. Healing tents were like 5 con mats.
We would merely hurl ladders about and chase each other through sky. It was possible back in ye olden times to send enemies plunging to their deaths with a mighty wave of ladderpults.

Then came the crying and tawdry little bitches. They cried and whined and they drove the devs to a dire decision.

You should stick to being poetic. Many of us played during all those times... some of us more than others... some of us on and off over the years. You know, you say it's the little bitches with their crying that ruined those good ol' days... but aren't you trying to now do the same thing? You're crying and whining about them doing 'a blanket ban on [your] class' and for what? In hopes they return to you your tools to use things that are not working as intended? How are you any better than the people you're bitching about?

Let's go off on the polestagger tangent for a minute, even though it really has no place in this discussion... there's a huge difference between something working as intended but being unbalanced and something that isn't working as intended and doing things that aren't meant to be done. When something isn't working the way it should, yes it should be removed until it can be fixed to work as it should. When something is simply unbalanced in the eyes of its players, like many see polestagger, then it needs to be balanced... but you hardly have to remove something that is actually working the way it should. Like it or not, polestagger is working the way it's supposed to... so no it doesn't need to just have all weapons removed using it... it just needs to be properly balanced.

Spawn tents keeping their spawn point after a round is over was neither balanced nor working as intended. You yourself just described how you were able to ninja a flag in 30 seconds and with Hospitaller you ninja'd the siege server for 2 hours. Your own admission describes what is so broken about it. I have yet to see polestagger truly affect a game in such a way. It's annoying as hell, but 2handers... 1handers... they seem to kill people just as easily...

Now, let's apply some of this to the ladderpults... just so we can see another example of something not working properly. I remember those... battle servers... narrow bridge full of people and someone could just run up and pop comes a ladder magically from under the ground... lifting people up and up until they jumped to their deaths or were tossed to their deaths when they broke... what an innovative tool! Kill dozens of people, including friendlies, with a single click of a button. Yeah... when people think of siege ladders in a medieval combat game... they definitely think about how ladders should be capable of flinging people like catapults... those ladders sure worked perfectly, didn't they? About as perfect as watching ladder built upon ladder, built upon ladder up into the heavens... I bet you enjoyed those days too and touted your banners and slogans when people were told to no longer do that... and bitched about people bitching to have it stopped... and how the whining and crying players ruined your fun... well, things generally get removed when they get abused too much... some people can tolerate it a little... some not at all...

- - -

tl;dr for all the people who have attention spans shorter than a gnat... people crying about their toys being taken away are no better than the ones crying to have them taken away in the first place... so everyone can get off their high horse.

Bring back the siege equipment when they can properly disappear at the end of a round. I think that's only fair since everything else gets reset. The time and effort it takes to build and protect such things are the same sacrifices some people make to chop down doors and gates round after round. I see no reason for anything to persist longer than a round.

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General Discussion / Re: Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 04, 2012, 12:57:41 am »

Hopefully they be able to fix it so it works more properly to stay in line with somehow resetting after rounds... then we can have them back.

Really the argument is, should this stuff be in the game? That is what it is down to.

That was never my argument, and I'm not sure many other people were arguing that way either. No one wants to see things removed, but only if they work properly. Obviously, the spawn tents in siege aren't working 100% as intended so it's better to avoid the potential headaches and have them disabled/disallowed till they no longer do that.

If anyone thinks the argument was simply about removing spawn tents from siege, then they missed the greater picture I think. I, for one, would just like them fixed if they are going to be allowed, and until then have them disallowed. I don't want to potentially lose modifiers because of a spawn tent creating scenarios that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

As for the weapon rack issues... well, that wasn't even an issue in my OP, but they're obviously showing the same symptoms the spawn tents are of what the admins don't want happening... i.e. not going away at the end of a round.

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General Discussion / Re: Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 03, 2012, 09:06:46 pm »

Team-switched or not, no one should be spawning at these locations at the start of a round. Let's say attackers got a tent inside a hidden nook that's near a gate they can open quickly, sure if they get team-switched they shouldn't spawn there anymore, but neither should the attackers still on offense at the start of a round. Everyone should spawn at the regular starting spawn points, not get an advantage that persists through rounds.

This isn't about a strategy that's over-powered or new, it's about a strategy that creates an obvious abusive situation when things go right. Just because someone finds something that can be abused, doesn't mean they should be using it. Like when pikes and long spears weren't to be used on horseback, or the siege construction piles when they were indestructible. It wasn't a matter of being an over-powered strategy, but because they weren't working as intended.

Now, if the powers that be wish to rule that using spawn tents in their current state, that can lead to people spawning at the start of a round that bypasses defenses is fine and dandy, then I propose making doors and gates remain in their same conditions at the start of a new round. I mean, it would be just good strategy to go around breaking all the doors in the first round when they're weak so that you can have an easy path on the following rounds... and if the defenders can't counter that, well too bad, yes?

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General Discussion / Re: Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 03, 2012, 02:06:19 pm »

There were a couple maps where it was put inside the 'walls'. One map it didn't really matter and just led to one guy getting killed I think like 40 times, but the second map was the one with the double doors at the bottom of the really tall hill map... wish I could remember the map name. Anyways, a spawn tent got setup just inside the gates, and it survived a couple rounds since no one noticed it at first given how the gates are not typically defended as it is, and it was pushed up against a building. Attackers got to start a couple rounds with someone already inside the open the gate right away, as opposed to spending a minute or two chopping on the gate which is what gives defenders a chance to setup.

I can't say that KUTT was responsible, I was just saying a couple KUTT members, as well as one or two more, voiced their support over said tactic (and being told that organized groups know how to properly use them by said people just implies a clan or group of friends planning it) when some people complained. Instead of joining into that debate in game, I simply started this thread. No head-hunting or anything, just simple discussion as to why some sort of clear rule/guideline should be laid out as to it's usage in siege... especially when someone defended the use of a spawn camp inside closed gates by saying that admins do it, so it's okay. If that's true, then I think the admin is also out of line... but that's beside the point. I just don't see any reason for anyone to claim that spawn tents that persist through multiple rounds if ignored/not known is just clever strategy when it more or less defies the point of resetting doors and gates.

Being used outside of doors/walled areas I think is a somewhat acceptable compromise for those that wish to use them, because they are a good strategy... they do help for some tricky spawns or just keeping people one step closer to an objective. The after-the-round effects of surviving tents are just too abusive or annoying, depending on which side you're on when you spawn there, to have people simply shrug their shoulders and say, 'Well, too bad you lost as defenders within two minutes on a map that clearly takes longer because you didn't notice our hidden spawn tent that allowed us to open your defenses from the inside.'

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General Discussion / Re: Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 03, 2012, 12:06:10 pm »

Well, Digglez does have a point though. Spawn deselect or not... the tent and anything done/created during a round should disappear or else gatehouses should stay open and doors should also stay destroyed... after all, attackers might spend half a round chopping down doors too... so unfair to make them do it again...

I just can't believe... well, okay I do believe, but I can't understand how there can actually be a number of people that don't see the abusive usage of them right now no matter how easy they are to destroy. If they can create something that shouldn't be happening (i.e. attackers spawning inside walls at the beginning of a map when they should be spawning outside) then common sense would say the only real choice is to make sure it never takes place. In this instance, having players refrain from using them. It's the only simple solution that avoids the abusive usage until something can be done to change it, if ever.

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General Discussion / Spawn Tents in NA Siege

« on: May 03, 2012, 06:28:32 am »

Since when is using spawn tents legal in siege? Or for that matter any game mode? I thought those were a purely Strategus thing... especially when it's obviously being used to be abusive for attackers. Take tonight for example with KUTT primarily being the vocal supporters of said tactic... so using the forward base, if it survived through the match, those using it to spawn now spawned at the start of the next round inside the walls, allowing them to quickly open gates within 5 seconds.

Being seemed to be happy with this since it allowed for fast and easy victories for attackers, and anyone upset with this had mostly KUTT telling them to 'take it to the forums then!' or 'admins use it' and the lovely 'only organized groups know how to do it' responses. Am I really one of the few who find this tactic abusive? If the forward base spawn reset at the end of the match, that'd be one thing but it obviously persists and it happened on multiple maps where people got these forward bases in locations that didn't get them destroyed easily... talk about making siege viable only for attackers... since what good would spawning outside with a forward spawn point do for any defenders?