Messages

31

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realistic version of balance

« on: April 23, 2014, 05:12:15 pm »

I meant the actual coding, testing, rebalancing etc. of the entire game. Not just items. Not just crpg things. M&B engine from the ground up. Doing this would require a ton of time. crpg patches would grind to a halt. Melee: Battlegrounds would have to be cancelled. The devs aren't going to do it. You're basically saying "I'm the ideas guy, I'll just give you a list of fighting techniques and facts to keep in mind while you make a videogame for me."

It is not like "Lol go and make videogame for me". It is like "I'm the ideas guy, I'll use your code, change the items' stats, add one animation, and rebalance the combat system totally by that. But the problem is, I am not allowed to use your assets without permission." And, actually, not only for me - a lot of people lack realism in cRPG.

Gameplay > Realism

(click to show/hide)

If you want to go and simulate real life, go LARP medieval combat. Otherwise, please leave our already easy to learn yet hard to master combat and mechanics system alone. Real life doesn't make a good game (the last words of people dying on a medieval battlefield were "fukin op cav ill rek ur shit m8 i swear on me mum"). Sure, we're inspired by the romantic aspects of swordplay, but nobody wants to play a game in which you consistently die because everything is unbalanced in order to accommodate for "realism".

By the way, if you want an ultra-"realism" game - next time you get wounded, stop playing for 6 months. Next time you die, throw your PC out the window and build another one.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be realistic aspects to the game, it's just that (I know you have all earned degrees in medieval combat) many of these "realism" posts are redundant to say the least.

Add this thread to the graveyard.

Edit: If you only have a problem with some of the weapon statistics Dima, I understand. "Realism" is an often overused and oddly interpreted word to use when describing what it is that you want to change about the game.

I do LARP combat. It is fun, sometimes more fun than M&B, sometimes less. But you can't simulate some things in real life. You, of course, can, but it is very hard, sometimes dangerous.

1) Horses. You can only use them for transport in real life, because in real life you can one-hit your friend RPing your opponent with an (un)lucky horse bump or attack while galloping. You will just crush his bones, like you do it with a mace.
2) Ranged. We have to use very light bows, because we could kill each other otherwise. The arrows don't fly far, they are very slow and hard to aim. Ranged are only effective in very close range. You can't simulate (non)penetration, because you have to protect yourself as good as possible.
3) Shields. You can't crush them, because one shield costs like $100. Too expensive to throw away several per week, given that there are already a lot of things that break.
4) Huge armies. When big LARP events happen, they are dangerous, because people hit very strongly and don't think about people they hit. Some people also bring stronger weapons than allowed, like heavier swords, stronger bows etc. It is also very hard and expensive to host such events, and you need much better armour for them, that is also very expensive.

Etc., etc.

The bonus of going LARP or cRPG is that you don't really die, as you would do in a real army, you don't have to heal wounds, don't suffer from bloody flux etc.
If you make something pretending to be a real life balance, it is often unrealistic at all. For example, you have only one way to thrust in M&B, IRL you have a lot of them. You should balance realism and arcade if you want a good game. cRPG item balancers forgot about realism, every topic with something like "Do that stats edit, it is realistic" will go the realism discussion area and be left there forever.

As for me, "realistic" game is a game that looks similar to real life, and that doesn't make me cry "LOL HOW???//" too often. That is actually why any "realistic" game about fencing becomes unrealistic when some pros learn it's mechanics too good and use glitches of engine. In Chivalry, for example, every fight with noobs only will look realistic, and any fight with pros only will look like a lot of teleports, magic etc. So is it in M&B, any pro will just outspam a noob and onehit him by turning in the same direction in which he moves his blade.

And item stats is not the only thing I need. I also need some animations to be changed/edited, but I can learn to do it myself. The only thing I want from cRPG is it's code added to Warband.

Its not all nerfs now, throwing got buffed, a bunch of polearms got 1 more speed etc.

 And what are the changes that are needed to make this game more realistic then?

For example, boosting plate, so it really does protect from projectiles and swings, nerfing some weapons like knife (that penetrate plate now), nerfing cutting damage against armour (possible in cRPG), adding upper thrusts for polearms etc. The list of changes will be discussed after devs say something.

Although i agree with Ronin, the playerbase prefers it because anyone who didnt will have stopped playing here long ago.

If such a version appears, a lot of people can go and play it. There are not so a lot of mods that are still supported for now.

32

Game Balance Discussion / Respec with no XP loss for 1 LP

« on: April 22, 2014, 04:33:05 am »

I suggest to implement ability to fully respec a character above 30 lvl in a cost of 1 LP without losing any XP. Losing XP to punish players for changing their mind is good, but what if we let players choose the punishment?

I suggest to block this for characters below 30 lvl in order to stop people doing a big mistake.

33

Strategus General Discussion / Anti-Druzhina alliance

« on: April 22, 2014, 02:41:03 am »

I joined Druzhina and found, that no clan is actually a real threat to Druzhina. Why don't all other clans just unite against us and let us have a real war?

34

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realistic version of balance

« on: April 21, 2014, 10:49:49 pm »

It would be a different kind of balance. The game is stuck in an unending spiral of nerfs and tears because sertain concepts where introduced wrong to begin with. You're afraid of the change because you think you might lose something, but each class would be winning a lot too if we where all willing to learn new things with the same engine.

WERE
For some reason, it's a common mistake here.

But you are actually right. It will just be a different kind of balance.

I agree wholeheartedly, and would like to add that once a week players should be obliged to play a Farmville-style minigame where they clip their characters fingernails, or suffer a penalty to WPF (because in real life, it's pretty awkward to have fingernails that are too long).

such joke
much funny

35

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realistic version of balance

« on: April 21, 2014, 09:46:23 pm »

Fear of the unknown.

I will say it once more - if developers agree, everyone is able to discuss the concept, you too. And if we doubt in something, we test it in real life.

Because the playerbase isn't big enough to be split up in two mods.

1) It can grow - if you invite people to play cRPG with realistic balance, they will come.
2) It is big enough now to take some players for tests
 

I've read enough

I will translate a very interesting quote from a russian free-to-play RPG: "If everyone is complaining about being always killed and everyone else always being OP, game is balanced". Understood? But in order to balance it the game sacrificed it's realism.

I am totally up with this !
The thing is,there is no such thing as "balanced battle" in real life. Not in medieval times,nor in modern. It was always unbalanced. That unbalance was the reason why technology advanced, people always came up with new ideas to overcome OP shits.
Arrow ---> Plate --->Bodkin Arrow
Lancer ---> Pikeman ---> Plated 2hander ---> Musket

Lots of examples could be given. Balancers killed this game by balancing this game by discarding reality. Want an example ? Cleaver has bonus against shield.

I would totally play realistic cRPG with all weapons have a crushthrough chance in correlation with their weight,lances being broken or stuck in the body once pierced into someone by a cav. Hugely increased glance chance to all armors starting with chain mail. Archery speed and damage buffed.
Armor for instance. In cRPG armor just reduces your incoming damage. This is bullshit,even chain mail is too damn hard to penetrate since flexibility of chains absorb the damage by spreading the force of impact to much greater space but in this game you can penetrate it with everything.
No hold blocks, there is no such thing as blocking without a shield it is fucking parry and it is basically striking your opponent's weapon to deflect the attack in other words,you change the incoming swing's direction to prevent any harm to you. Crossbow reload speed should be increased heavily,remove shield skill requirement to carry a damn shield. Heavily reduce long range accuracy of all ranged,add inaccurate but deadly indirect shots to ranged.More blood & gore for amusement !

You actually don't understand the concept of Medieval Warfare. Sorry. And I suggest to discuss list of changes later, when we receive any feedback from developers.
But I will show you your mistakes.

1) Lances were brought to Europe with Crusades, they were not invented in Europe. Before that, Europe used spears on horseback, they were shorter and much heavier.
2) Cavalry was OP not only due to a lance. For you to know, in Ancient times cavalry was at first armed with darts and throwing spears, then it began to hit with a spear - but not thrusting forward, thrust was directed from up to down. And it WAS OP against undisciplined armies.
3) In ranged it was like "Broadhead arrows - Chainmail - Bodkins and crossbows - Brigandine from middle distances, plate from any distances - Crossbows and plates becoming heavier and heavier, but slowly - Firearms-Heavy plates". Then, when firearms received ability to penetrate even the heaviest plate, became more accurate etc. etc, Medieval Warfare actually ends, and it goes for the next step, which was tried to be covered in WFAS. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pavia - it was the end of Medieval combat. The problem also was, that horses were almost always protected worse than the rider, which allowed to kill the horse to dismount the rider and sworm him as you see tincans swormed on DTV.
It is not a precise explanation of Medieval Combat history, only a brief one, as you have to read many books to understand it fully, but it will give you at least some notes.
4) You are right that armour must give you better protection - it could even be done with Warband engine, you should just work with armour stats. But you are wrong about deflecting swings. You actually can just block a swing, not deflect it, especially if your weapon is slower than opponent's. Deflections are represented in chamberblocks, that allow you to parry a swing and immediately hit back, even if you are just a spamming bot, lol. But some weapons are impossible to be just blocked. Better to say, some attacks, I mean thrusts. You can easily block it with a shield, but with all other weapons you will need to deflect it. In real life it is also possible to hold opponent's pole and stop his swings if you catch it, but it is hard. When dueling against spearmen with a shield and a short sword, I charge them fastly while crouching and protecting myself with a shield, then I drop the shield, catch the pole and rape them with my sword.
5) About chainmail. It is an armour against arrows, especially arrows fored from far distances. It does NOT give full protection against swords, but it gives some. For example, from a deflected swing that still reached you due to some reason.

mail - bodkin arrow - plate - arbalest

Realistically ranged would be really inefficient against plate armor from a distance, which would allow for tight formations of polearmers who would still be raped by realistically op cav gangs if they left formation and rushed.

Meanwhile the two melee forces approach each other with ever increasing danger from short range ranged and bolder cav, untill the two forces met each other and all hell broke loose. All the while ranged would be doing their best to take out enemy horses, so they might survive by the time melee infantry is too busy to give them couver. It's very possible to achieve this.

True, but also not precise. The precise balance will be discussed later, after some feedback of developers.

You can't create a truly realistic game in the M&B engine. It is a game that mimics medieval combat, not an attempt to realistically model the physics of fighting in real life.

Making the combat "more realistic" in crpg would make it less fun for most people. Even those who would like to try it would find lots of things frustrating and unenjoyable. It would also require a complete rework of all player stats and items from the ground up, and I don't think anyone wants to put that much effort into this idea.

The player population isn't large enough for two separate versions of CRPG.

To be more precise, it is totally impossible to make a truly realistic RPG at all, but it is possible to make a very close to real life fights game - and also possible to give cleaver bonus against shields.
And if noone wants to do that, I can - I study history in Moscow State University, and I do fencing in real life.

The balance of ranged and everyone else will be discussed later.

Realism would destroy the mod me thinks. Whats with all the boners for realism anyways? Its still not going to be very realistic unless you completely change the mod, and then its probably going to be a steaming pile of dog poop anyways. Just changing some weapon stats wont really make the game more realistic.

Oh, really? We will watch it later, I will show you that it is possible. Just give Katana 255 damage, it could easily slice a plate-armour knight, that is why Samurai had so bad armour. And add "Bonus against Longsword" to Katana.

I play it because its a good mix of balance and some hints of realism compared to other games. More realism at the cost of balance is just poop.

It is not just realism in a cost of completely unbalanced gameplay. It is realism that is balanced after being made realism. So it is harder to balance it, but not impossible.



Please, no more changes discussion. Do it in another topic.

36

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realistic version of balance

« on: April 21, 2014, 02:20:03 pm »

No thanks.

Why?

37

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Team balance in cRPG battles. Long text!

« on: April 21, 2014, 02:05:28 pm »

I will boost this topic, it is probably still worth implementing.

BTW, it can be done in a specific mode called like "balanced battle".

38

Realism Discussion / Realistic cRPG. We can make it, dudes!

« on: April 21, 2014, 01:54:49 pm »

http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/realistic-version-of-balance/
Vote, guys, if you are interested to see realistic version of cRPG balance using same improvements as cRPG but realistic stats. Discuss things there please.

39

Game Balance Discussion / Realistic version of balance

« on: April 21, 2014, 01:49:39 pm »

CRPG team has very good coders, it is perfectly balanced, at least more than Native, but in a matter of good balance it sacrificed realism, and is even less realistic than Native.

To prove that some people want it, I ask you at least to watch amount of posts in “Realism discussion” thread, full of ideas about realism.

So, my idea is not to try again forcing developers to sacrifice their perfect balance. I just want to suggest a deal between those who want realism (probably, trading some balance for that) and those who want perfectly balanced game: by making another version of the mod with very slight changes, mainly in weapon stats, that will make this game much more realistic.

The list of changes can be formed later, when both developers and a bunch of players agree to do something like that. The only thing that I can say for now is that if we doubt in something being needed or not needed, I will be able to test it in real life in historical martial arts organization.

UPD: Please, no more changes discussion. Do it in another topic. Just answer to the poll and discuss the ability to make it, not the balance.
UPD2: I pressed the wrong button and deleted the poll. Sorry for that, revote ic you want.

40

WSE2 Beta / Re: Public use?

« on: April 12, 2014, 09:05:14 pm »

cmp's time is more valuable than the money you'd get for that.

You know the rules of capitalist world? Everything has it's price, especially everybody's time.

41

WSE2 Beta / Re: Public use?

« on: April 11, 2014, 12:26:25 am »

It's locked to cRPG because:
- it hasn't been tested with anything else
- it only provides a subset of WSE1 operations (the ones used by cRPG)
- it requires setting up several custom config and resource files
- I don't really have time (and interest) to manage/support a public release

Can you probably make an "As is" release, unsupported, but free for use at own risk?
Or, probably, a crowdfunded release? I am sure, that a lot of modders and mod players would be great to donate on thing like public WSE2.

42

WSE2 Beta / Re: Public use?

« on: April 09, 2014, 11:53:34 pm »

I mean, WSE2, not the first version

43

WSE2 Beta / Public use?

« on: April 09, 2014, 11:47:17 pm »

WSE must have taken a lot of hours to make it, a lot of working hours of professional coders. It allows to do a lot of things. But most part of the beginners in moding want to see some features they see in the cRPG in their mod, and some people would be glad to write their own extensions for WSE.

So, the questions are:

1) Is WSE free for public usage?
2) If no, why? Will it probably ever be released for public usage, probably, without the source code?

Didn't find any answers in FAQ area or any other.

44

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realism version: why not?

« on: December 24, 2013, 09:05:48 pm »

How is Naitive more realistic? 

Plate armor is more capable of bouncing cutting hits, it is much easier there to couchlance people, weight does not affect skills so much, you can't knockdown a full-plated guy by hitting him with a stick, you can't penetrate fullplate with hunting crossbow from big distances, bows are not more accurate than crossbows, amount of ammo is bigger, you normally die if headshot... Should I continue, or is it enough?

45

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Realism version: why not?

« on: December 23, 2013, 05:01:16 pm »

I like the idea - actually a LOT.

This medieval Battlefield 2 hopping game with 13 yr old agi girls wielding heavy polearms without fatigue and faster than the eye can follow... is sometimes fun, but also kinda tiring.

But like Macropus said: not much of a chance.

Mod is on its decline, dev ressources going into the new game, Bannerlord coming up, player base is already going down... so I do not see any sub-mod coming...

Maybe one of the mods for the new games (Bannerlord or M:BG) will take up the idea. But I doubt it, real combat sims always attract only a very limited number of players, most are in just for the lulz (nothing bad with that - me too ;-) )

People will still play it, even when Bannerlord will be released.

Actually, Native was much more realistic, than cRPG.But Native lacks some further development, that is done here.