cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: tankmen on June 14, 2011, 12:07:54 am

Title: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: tankmen on June 14, 2011, 12:07:54 am
this would stop those 2h cav for the most part, you the know the ones that bump then block and flee, as well as stop the annoying pike men that block then spin stab at point blank range. It makes no sense to side block with these weapons, they should hit the ground with the shaft... but its just a suggestion after all
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Amoebe on June 14, 2011, 12:11:19 am
I think you should use a pike once and see how it's being held. Then you'd see that your argument is pretty much invalid. Just a suggestion ...
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 05:49:53 am
Good suggestion. +1

Pikes wouldn't be an ideal melee weapon. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense using an unwiedly pike to twirl around and block easily. I would suggest making pikes a 1 slot weapon though as a trade off
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Cepeshi on June 14, 2011, 06:56:57 am
bad suggestion, this would make pikemons quite useless...even tho i have to agree spin thrusts are lol, they are used by players wielding different weapons aswell, not just pikes...
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 07:07:35 am
Quote from: Cepeshi on June 14, 2011, 06:56:57 am
pikemons


I CHOOSE YOU PIKE-A-CHU!  :lol:



It wouldn't affect what they are designed to counter: horses. Since the lolstab is a flaw of a fundamental design of the warband engine, other things need to be done to discourage the abuse of it in melee.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Cepeshi on June 14, 2011, 07:12:13 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 07:07:35 am

I CHOOSE YOU PIKE-A-CHU!  :lol:



It wouldn't affect what they are designed to counter: horses. Since the lolstab is a flaw of a fundamental design of the warband engine, other things need to be done to discourage the abuse of it in melee.

supporting charging inf is not abuse mate :) i do pike to heads when i meet group of my teammates, i just hide behind and poke poke poke...if the frontal like is getting thin, i switch to sword :) but yeah, its ridiculous you can hit around corner and around shield with the spinning :( blocking should remain tho, it saved me a few times, imagine, you pike a guy, he goes on, you turn just to see another horse, but with 1her on it, you block his swing and voila can stab someone else...and to be hones, people are not protecting the pikemons that well :( (yeah, we should make the word PIKEMONS! famous)
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Brutal on June 14, 2011, 08:38:17 am
I know that wikipedia is not the best source but:

"Although primarily a military weapon, the pike could be surprisingly effective in single combat and a number of 16th-century sources explain how it was to be used in a dueling situation; fencers of the time often practiced with and competed against each other using different attacks such as the infamous lolstab."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28weapon%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28weapon%29)
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 08:43:20 am
the "Dueling" situation is talking about pike on pike. Any weapon can be used on the same weapon in a 1 on 1 situation. Also, this post on the wiki doesn't cite any of the "number of 16th-century sources" which it states say it can be used in single combat. Wikipedia can be a great source, but this article is in need of a bit of love.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Bulzur on June 14, 2011, 10:57:42 am
I thought the op was talking about blocking with a lance "on a horse" first, and then pikemen.
I agree with the "no blocking" on a horse, since we can't block couch lance either. Just leave the block thrust maybe, for cav duels, but take away the overhead block. So that inf knows how to attack when a cav got stopped and is blocking his way out, as if nothing happened.
But leave the pikemen's ability to block. They're not so hard to deal with.

Just make some weapon "no block possible on horseback" maybe ?
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Ujin on June 14, 2011, 11:04:18 am
Remove the skill factor from skilled players in a skill-based game ? Sure, great idea !
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 14, 2011, 07:06:42 pm
Imagine trying to block with a pike irl (or any similarly sized weapon).

The switch from overhead block to side block would be so cumbersome and require a lot of space to manage.

If block speeds could somehow be changed, than the pike should have a very low blocking speed. If not, then the block should be removed, or the animation changed to something slower and more realistic.

Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Joxer on June 14, 2011, 08:08:48 pm
Pike is shit slow. It cannot be used for dueling since it only thrust attacks on top of that.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 14, 2011, 09:58:58 pm
only if heavy lances get crushtrough on thrust
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 09:59:49 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on June 14, 2011, 09:58:58 pm
only if heavy lances get crushtrough on thrust

you's trolling!
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Whiligelm on June 14, 2011, 10:44:00 pm
Being both a Lancer and a Pikeman/Halberdier myself I always wanted to see something like this implemented.
It would be harder either for pikemen and lancers but still more realistic.

An alternative idea would be the ability of lances/pikes to crush trough blocks.
Especially for lances at high speed they should be able to crush the block aswell as hammers (but only at high speed)
Same for pikes, but still this idea would lower the strenght of pikemen.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Dravic on June 14, 2011, 10:46:55 pm
Quote from: Whiligelm on June 14, 2011, 10:44:00 pm
Being both a Lancer and a Pikeman/Halberdier myself I always wanted to see something like this implemented.
It would be harder either for pikemen and lancers but still more realistic.

An alternative idea would be the ability of lances/pikes to crush trough blocks.
Especially for lances at high speed they should be able to crush the block aswell as hammers (but only at high speed)
Same for pikes, but still this idea would lower the strenght of pikemen.

This is where I stopped reading your post.

This is game, not real world. It is about game balance, not about its realism.

game balance > realism

(if you listened to teacher on maths lessons)
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Whiligelm on June 14, 2011, 10:59:22 pm
Quote from: Dravic on June 14, 2011, 10:46:55 pm
This is where I stopped reading your post.

This is game, not real world. It is about game balance, not about its realism.

game balance > realism

(if you listened to teacher on maths lessons)
You should have read the second part than...

Also yes I'm not asking for something so close to reality. I'm asking to get a bit closer to medieval warfare, respecting the game balance.
Parrying a high speed lance thrust just by the same animation all the time is getting annoying.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 14, 2011, 10:59:52 pm
Quote from: Joxer on June 14, 2011, 08:08:48 pm
Pike is shit slow. It cannot be used for dueling since it only thrust attacks on top of that.

*coughcoughWalt_F4coughcough*
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2011, 11:06:13 pm
Quote from: Whiligelm on June 14, 2011, 10:59:22 pm
You should have read the second part than...

Also yes I'm not asking for something so close to reality. I'm asking to get a bit closer to medieval warfare, respecting the game balance.
Parrying a high speed lance thrust just by the same animation all the time is getting annoying.

If it was for realism, no one would use lances onehanded on horseback in the first place.

Also,

Quote from: Tears_of_Destiny on June 14, 2011, 10:59:52 pm
Quote from: Joxer on June 14, 2011, 08:08:48 pm
Pike is shit slow. It cannot be used for dueling since it only thrust attacks on top of that.
*coughcoughWalt_F4coughcough*

Depends on what pike you are talking about. The 3m pike is extremely hard to duel with, because you have to be very far to hit (with all the lolstabbing you want). The long spear however can be used, successfully from time to time, but becomes serious in duel only when masterworked, because turnstabbing actually works even at facehug range on this one.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Whiligelm on June 14, 2011, 11:21:48 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 14, 2011, 11:06:13 pm
If it was for realism, no one would use lances onehanded on horseback in the first place.

It's not that true.
Winged hussars had no shields, also almost evry mounted soldier from the end of the 15th century refused to use a shield.
Conquistadores might be an exception, but before the gunpowder (or during it's first use) knights used no shields

A clear examples are the french gendarmes

(click to show/hide)

Or the most common ghotic knights

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Kafein on June 14, 2011, 11:06:13 pm
If it was for realism

Maybe you meant advantage and not realism
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 14, 2011, 11:38:18 pm
You mean before gunpowder knights used shields, and after gunpowder they dropped out of favor... both of those knights you posted do not predate gunpowder in europe.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on June 15, 2011, 01:17:47 am
Quote from: Tears_of_Destiny on June 14, 2011, 10:59:52 pm
*coughcoughWalt_F4coughcough*

As far as i remember, Walt_F4 uses a long spear.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 15, 2011, 01:41:51 am
Quote from: RamsesXXIIX on June 15, 2011, 01:17:47 am
As far as i remember, Walt_F4 uses a long spear.

Yup, still in the very bad habit of calling the Long Spear by the old name  :oops:
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Torben on June 15, 2011, 02:01:06 am
i got a website for u:  www.fuckrealismthisisagame.com
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Whiligelm on June 15, 2011, 09:28:58 am
Quote from: Tears_of_Destiny on June 14, 2011, 11:38:18 pm
You mean before gunpowder knights used shields, and after gunpowder they dropped out of favor... both of those knights you posted do not predate gunpowder in europe.
I said before gunpowder was completely implemented (late 16th century). Before the invention of muskets some knights didnt used any shield
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: MadJackMcMad on June 15, 2011, 12:14:22 pm
Simply decrease the speed of pikes to limit their duelling effectiveness, but marginally increase their damage so that they can continue to be effective against cavalry and as support against infantry.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Butan on June 15, 2011, 03:35:29 pm
Pikes and lances are already very hard to use when on foot so -1
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Elerion on June 15, 2011, 03:38:45 pm
The fact that as a lancer I can easily block incoming hits after being reared in the middle of enemy infantry may be unnecessarily powerful. It's not possible with a jousting lance. I don't see a problem making Heavy Lance and possibly Lance have the same limitation.

It would however also make cav-on-cav duels much more lethal, if you can't block their incoming lance poke when you mess up.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 15, 2011, 05:49:16 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

>

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Screw anti-realism, it is a false god.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Whiligelm on June 15, 2011, 08:12:47 pm
Quote from: ArchonAlarion on June 15, 2011, 05:49:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
>

(click to show/hide)


Screw anti-realism, it is a false god.
  +1
But I still think that a extreme realistic game cannot exist
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 15, 2011, 09:50:59 pm
And extreme balance can never exist unless you actually turn the game into a rock paper-scissor simulator.

Too many variables for a ham handed forced "balance". Reality has its own balance anyways.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Joxer on June 15, 2011, 11:15:36 pm
Pike & Long spear are the worst dueling weapons in the game. If you lose against them and then come here to ask for nerfs then you need to go die in a lava lake.  :twisted:
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: EponiCo on June 15, 2011, 11:21:56 pm
They are the most annoying dueling weapons for sure. Downblock, downblock, downblock and follow a backpeddler over the entire map until you get bored and try to spam him and then you get a thrust in the face. It's the same as running after an archer but they at least can't block. Though if they couldn't block they'd be pretty much screwed given you can just jumpthrust them before they can switch weapons.
Title: Re: remove the ability to block with lances and pikes?
Post by: Elerion on June 15, 2011, 11:46:28 pm
If you're too slow to catch up to a backpeddling pikeman, that's a weakness of your build. He's moving at half speed.