Little known outside of the medieval community however, is that Deen really loved to take different armors and piece together components. The Met armor is one example of that, and it's really quite bad.
First off, the straps. Corrazinas did not have straps at the front. They were knightly armors, and knights had servants. Which is why they were designed with the straps at the back, so that an opponent would not be able to cut them off in battle and expose your oh so sexy chest.
This is one of the best examples of a real surviving corrazina.
Another thing you may have noticed, which is what makes the armor really unusable, are the plates under the waistline. Cheastplates always taper at the natural waist, and everything under that needs to be flexible. Something achieved with having segmented lames. You can see it better on a later 15th century breastplate:
(this is from the youtube channel Knyght Errant btw, check him out!)
Anyhow you can see that everything beneath the waist is segmented, to allow it collapsing when moving and not restricting your legs. The Met armor? Nope, all it has is one solid skirt (well almost completely solid, solid enough). Good luck moving in that.
If we take a look at one of the corrazinas in-game, you can see that they're 90% modeled off the Met armor.
I'm bored, and have nothing else to do. Who knows, maybe someone actually will care
I care.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Sniger on April 19, 2018, 10:54:31 am
and i. nice to know that this community is not just arcade shitlords but we actually do have some people who is interested in realism, history and learning new stuff. thanks for posting
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corazzinas no one will care about
Post by: Sniger on April 19, 2018, 10:57:17 am
Lies! Some of us lurk the darker recesses of the forum too you know?
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Jona on April 19, 2018, 05:24:28 pm
If anyone still here seriously browses subforum by subforum, and doesn't just click on "Show unread posts since last visit" then I don't even know what you're doing with your life.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 19, 2018, 06:35:44 pm
By the way pal http://forum.melee.org/historical-discussion/ (http://forum.melee.org/historical-discussion/)
IMO this can go in general discussion or maybe balance because its about historical accuracy in relation to the mods armors and models as opposed to just talking about historical stuff in general
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 19, 2018, 07:55:59 pm
The Met armor isn't the only example with straps on the front. And this armor style would have started becoming more prevalent towards the end of the medieval era to wealthy mercenaries and bands that didn't have the manpower or option to take servants. The Republic of Venice and Genoa for example fielded some galley crews ( think modern day Marines ) of professional mercenaries who protected their holdings in Greece and the Eastern Med and that fought in various battles/campaigns vs the Ottomons/ rival Italian states towards the end of the medieval era/ early renaissance who weren't from any knightly orders.
Full Plate Armor overall was already falling out of use by this time in the way we saw it in the medieval era as it was just too cumbersome and unpractical to use, even those who could afford it weren't using it.
The Met armor isn't the only example with straps on the front. And this armor style would have started becoming more prevalent towards the end of the medieval era to wealthy mercenaries and bands that didn't have the manpower or option to take servants.
Yes... and no. You see, the Corrazina is a later 14th and early 15th century armor. It was a knightly armor, and it had the straps at the back. What you're referring to is a later development of the corazzina, known as the brigandine. It was an infantry development, with two main differences. While the corrazina became the solid breastplates you see in the 15th century, the brigandine went the other way and had tons of small plates, which was easier to make. It was generally an infantry armor, with the straps at the front. It is not the same armor, and should not be confused. It came a few decades later
Full Plate Armor overall was already falling out of use by this time in the way we saw it in the medieval era as it was just too cumbersome and unpractical to use, even those who could afford it weren't using it.
Oh no, it was definitely not. I don't know where you got that idea from. There's so much wrong with that sentence
Plate armor never actually fell out of use. Full plate harnesses did yes, but that was in the 17th century, not the 15th. And even so curaissers still used breastplates, and even some WW2 troops used heavy metal armor. The body armor worn today is still steel plates (unless you use kevlar).
"it was just too cumbersome and unpractical to use"
Said no one ever. That has ever used plate armor at least. It is neither cumbersome nor unpractical. A general 15th century suit weighed around 25-30 kg, and that's the mail and helmet counted too. The 30 kg was really only the Italian armors, since they for some reason still wore full mail shirts under their plate armors. Most other regions did only wear mail sleeves or voiders, which brought the weight down a few kilos
The second part of it was that the weight was distributed naturally across your body. The breastplate is distributed mostly on your waist and a bit on your shoulders. The arm armor goes on the arm. The leg armor goes on the leg.
What this does is that you don't actually feel the weight excessively. You still tire faster than without wearing it, and movement is slightly limited. But to call it cumbersome? No, never
It was extremely practical too, being able to stop virtually any weapon, from lances to crossbows and even firearms if we're talking 16th century plate. Everyone who could afford it wore it.
And if you still don't believe me: just look at this guy go climbing, doing a sommersault and even a half flip in mid 15th century armor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Zimke Zlovoljni on April 19, 2018, 11:02:50 pm
Since a own an armor (breastplate with backplate), I can tell you that I do not need help to put it on. As for weight, it lies on shoulders and waist, but also on you back as well, you can't really feel it much, it's like wearing a nicely fitted winter jacket. As for mobility, you can bend, tie your shoes, lie down, stand up, drink a beer, drink votka, drink mead, fall in grass, crawl back to your tent, no probs. Now, there are folks who have really bad armors and behave in them like bipedal turtles, and then draw conclusions from their experiences, but you know, fuck them.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 19, 2018, 11:25:50 pm
Since a own an armor (breastplate with backplate), I can tell you that I do not need help to put it on. As for weight, it lies on shoulders and waist, but also on you back as well, you can't really feel it much, it's like wearing a nicely fitted winter jacket. As for mobility, you can bend, tie your shoes, lie down, stand up, drink a beer, drink votka, drink mead, fall in grass, crawl back to your tent, no probs. Now, there are folks who have really bad armors and behave in them like bipedal turtles, and then draw conclusions from their experiences, but you know, fuck them.
Yeah, wearing it beats speculating. Thinking of getting my own in the future, however I still am not sure whether to go for a early-mid 15th century English style or a mid-late 15th century Milanese suit. Of course, I'll have to buy it gradually, since they're expensive as hell, but it will be worth it if I do. Some pics (first is English, second is Milanese):
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Leshma on April 19, 2018, 11:30:48 pm
Well if Zimke says it isn't too heavy I'll believe him because he's built like 15th century peasant, maybe a little bit heavier. I doubt those 1.5-1.6m on average peasants weighted more than 50 kgs on average and 30 kg of armor should be heavy on them. Knights could be better build and bulkier, a bit like Zimke.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 20, 2018, 12:07:19 am
Since a own an armor (breastplate with backplate), I can tell you that I do not need help to put it on. As for weight, it lies on shoulders and waist, but also on you back as well, you can't really feel it much, it's like wearing a nicely fitted winter jacket. As for mobility, you can bend, tie your shoes, lie down, stand up, drink a beer, drink votka, drink mead, fall in grass, crawl back to your tent, no probs. Now, there are folks who have really bad armors and behave in them like bipedal turtles, and then draw conclusions from their experiences, but you know, fuck them.
I own a brigandine and can get in and out of it myself if I'm not being lazy. Sometime I feel like I run even faster in it because of the extra momentum for the weight
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 01:05:47 am
Oh no, it was definitely not. I don't know where you got that idea from. There's so much wrong with that sentence
Plate armor never actually fell out of use. Full plate harnesses did yes, but that was in the 17th century, not the 15th. And even so curaissers still used breastplates, and even some WW2 troops used heavy metal armor. The body armor worn today is still steel plates (unless you use kevlar).
"it was just too cumbersome and unpractical to use"
Said no one ever. That has ever used plate armor at least. It is neither cumbersome nor unpractical. A general 15th century suit weighed around 25-30 kg, and that's the mail and helmet counted too. The 30 kg was really only the Italian armors, since they for some reason still wore full mail shirts under their plate armors. Most other regions did only wear mail sleeves or voiders, which brought the weight down a few kilos
The second part of it was that the weight was distributed naturally across your body. The breastplate is distributed mostly on your waist and a bit on your shoulders. The arm armor goes on the arm. The leg armor goes on the leg.
What this does is that you don't actually feel the weight excessively. You still tire faster than without wearing it, and movement is slightly limited. But to call it cumbersome? No, never
It was extremely practical too, being able to stop virtually any weapon, from lances to crossbows and even firearms if we're talking 16th century plate. Everyone who could afford it wore it.
And if you still don't believe me: just look at this guy go climbing, doing a sommersault and even a half flip in mid 15th century armor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
I've read accounts of the siege of Constantinople, and other various military actions around the time, the Spanish conquests of the Americas etc, Full plate was too cumbersome that's why it fell out of use. Few Full suits of plate were unearthed in Venetian holdings in the Med, these were ceremonial suits showing off wealth status for Captains and Governors. Just because someone can use it without a problem for a short amount of time comfortably in a youtube video or HEMA competition doesn't mean the weight won't exhaust you over time. For example most people considered in good shape today couldn't last 10 minutes in a boxing ring wearing nothing, wearing 30kg + of armor would quickly exhaust you in melee combat no matter how evenly the weight was distributed or how good of shape you are in, it was only ever practical to use full plate on horseback.
Also when only 1-2% of the population could afford a full set of plate armor around it's hayday of popularity it's not surprising to read that in the late medieval era even those who had access to it could still prefer a mail shirt or just a cuirass instead given circumstances. A siege or military campaign could involve vast amounts of marching and physical labor. You would need servants to carry it everywhere for you or some place to store it, it's logistically cumbersome for everyday military tasks.
Very few Kingdoms or states could support a sizable contingent of fully plated nobles for prolonged warfare. France, Spain and some very rich and corrupt City-States in the Italian Wars come to mind and they faired well in some battles, but in the big picture they were still a very small minority of all troops involved. When laws were abolished and violated prohibiting the use of gunpower, artillery and other ranged mechanisms, full plate quickly became obsolete again. ( These laws were purposely made to rig the economy for armor smiths and mercenaries who were war-profiteering for their city states by creating rules of war in their favor ) To counter these violations armor smiths started to make plate armor heavier and thicker, and this caused the need for their Armies to start breeding stronger, larger but slower cavalry horses to sustain the increased weight of the plate armor but in the end it didn't matter. The Spanish were employing lighter faster horses to outflank them and using more and more gunpowder weapons. Castilian lanceros were able to take the helmet off a French or Italian Knight's head at a full gallop killing them instantly before they even had a chance to react or defend themselves. Their heavier and stronger plate armor couldn't even protect them from a lance meanwhile a gun.
Also later in the medieval ages armor was either fitted or crafted for general use. General use armor would not be nearly as protective or comfortable ( Only the very richest nobles / mercenaries could afford personally fitted plate ). Another thought on the front straps is that as general use armor became more widely available something like front straps for fitting non-tailored armor would have saved soldiers alot of money and labor, it also may have allowed second hand armor to be utilized more effectively. Fitted armor for a noble probably wouldn't have had or needed them.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 07:03:25 am
I've read accounts of the siege of Constantinople, and other various military actions around the time, the Spanish conquests of the Americas etc, Full plate was too cumbersome that's why it fell out of use. Few Full suits of plate were unearthed in Venetian holdings in the Med, these were ceremonial suits showing off wealth status for Captains and Governors. Just because someone can use it without a problem for a short amount of time comfortably in a youtube video or HEMA competition doesn't mean the weight won't exhaust you over time. For example most people considered in good shape today couldn't last 10 minutes in a boxing ring wearing nothing, wearing 30kg + of armor would quickly exhaust you in melee combat no matter how evenly the weight was distributed or how good of shape you are in, it was only ever practical to use full plate on horseback.
Full plate fell out of use because armies got centralized, not because it was unpractical. When the state started to hold a regular army which got paid, and which had the profession of being soldiers, they realized that they could really not afford to give people armor. So what they did was give people guns instead. Because guns were cheap and required minimal training. Cuirassiers, which were the wealthy bunch, still wore bulletproof breastplates.
I'd really like to take a look of those accounts of yours.
Sure, you will get exhausted over time, but so will you without wearing armor. And if you're gonna get exhausted anyway, might as well do it boing protected from 99% of the hits you will receive. And it really isn't 30kg +, it's more like 30kg - Especially if you count the various mercenaries who would only use parts of a full plate harness.
The english knights would like to differ about that horseback thingy. During the Hundred Years War, they mostly fought on foot. And know what? Their armor was heavier than most around during that time. History doesn't agree with you
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 07:07:54 am
Full plate fell out of use because armies got centralized, not because it was unpractical. When the state started to hold a regular army which got paid, and which had the profession of being soldiers, they realized that they could really not afford to give people armor. So what they did was give people guns instead. Because guns were cheap and required minimal training. Cuirassiers, which were the wealthy bunch, still wore bulletproof breastplates.
I'd really like to take a look of those accounts of yours.
Sure, you will get exhausted over time, but so will you without wearing armor. And if you're gonna get exhausted anyway, might as well do it boing protected from 99% of the hits you will receive. And it really isn't 30kg +, it's more like 30kg - Especially if you count the various mercenaries who would only use parts of a full plate harness.
The english knights would like to differ about that horseback thingy. During the Hundred Years War, they mostly fought on foot. And know what? Their armor was heavier than most around during that time. History doesn't agree with you
Was it really the English Knights who carried the day at Agincourt? :lol: Or was it the horde of naked archers who more or less executed the exhausted Fully Armored French Knights who were stuck in the mud dying of heat exhaustion?
Again i'm not saying plate is totally useless, it's just far more exhausting and has many more drawbacks then people tend to describe. The French were absolutely slaughtered at Agincourt mainly due to exhaustion. Obviously it offers better protection, but by no means protects you from from 90% of danger on the battlefield.
Here is just a small list
1. Falling off your horse in 30-60kg of armor/equipment at a gallop would at the least leave you completely out of action but probably outright kill you.
2. Bad peripheral vision
3. Exhaustion
4. Priority target
5. Greatly reduces your chances to retreat or fall back if on foot
6. Way more exhausting march to the battle, your legs will probably be jelly by the time you reach the enemy lines if you are attacking on foot.
7. http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm#.WtmAEIjwaUm You can read here how easily people can be felled in full plate, knocked unconscious, grappled etc. You are far from invulnerable just because you have plate armor, and these were just 1v1 duels.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 08:32:52 am
Was it really the English Knights who carried the day at Agincourt? :lol: Or was it the horde of naked archers who more or less executed the exhausted Fully Armored French Knights who were stuck in the mud dying of heat exhaustion?
Again i'm not saying plate is totally useless, it's just far more exhausting and has many more drawbacks then people tend to describe. The French were absolutely slaughtered at Agincourt mainly due to exhaustion. Obviously it offers better protection, but by no means protects you from from 90% of danger on the battlefield.
Here is just a small list
1. Falling off your horse in 30-60kg of armor/equipment at a gallop would at the least leave you completely out of action but probably outright kill you.
2. Bad peripheral vision
3. Exhaustion
4. Priority target
5. Greatly reduces your chances to retreat or fall back if on foot
6. Way more exhausting march to the battle, your legs will probably be jelly by the time you reach the enemy lines if you are attacking on foot.
7. http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm#.WtmAEIjwaUm You can read here how easily people can be felled in full plate, knocked unconscious, grappled etc. You are far from invulnerable just because you have plate armor, and these were just 1v1 duels.
Yes, the knights played a big role in Agincourt. And the french knights were not 'dying of heat exhaustion', instead they stupidly charged the well entrenched positions of the english, through muddy ground. That's a death trap whether you wear armor or not. And the archers were not the only ones there, surprise. The English dismounted knights helped a fair bit.
1. Stop saying 30-60. It's 25-30 at max. And no, it won't kill you. People fall of horses all the time in jousting armor, which is quite a bit heavier. They're fine.
2. Yes, I totally agree. That is, with the visor down. Which was likely only done in lance charges and when getting shot by arrows. Otherwise, the visors were up.
3. Not enough for it to matter over the protection you get
4. Not really. In fact, the armor says "Don't kill me, I have lots of money. Ransom me!" Sure, a priority target. But for other reasons. And that still doesn't mean they'd actually be able to do anything to you. Especially if they were peasants. Wouldn't stand a chance.
5. No it doesn't
6.You don't march with armor on, you march with the armor off. Then you put the armor on, and go to battle. And even if you did march with it on for whatever reason, it would be fine. Just ask anyone who owns an authentic set. An authentic set, not a cheap badly made one.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Dalhi on April 20, 2018, 08:37:40 am
Didn't the knights kill each other squires during the battle and than in the evening share the stories of killing whose poor peasants while drinking ale?
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 09:24:08 am
Didn't the knights kill each other squires during the battle and than in the evening share the stories of killing whose poor peasants while drinking ale?
Not at all
Not saying they were the greatest people out there, but they certainly would not kill each others squires. Especially when the squires were generally of noble blood, and future knights or men-at-arms themselves
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Dalhi on April 20, 2018, 09:47:56 am
But someone has to die in the battle, so didn't the knights show off their shiny armors while squires kill each other so the knight could tell the stories of their squire death in the evening while drinking ale?
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Torben on April 20, 2018, 10:38:47 am
Deus, thanks for this thread, rly fun read!
Gryt, you are getting off topic and trying to use arguments that arent valid to the subject, although making some good points - just not to the underlying discussion of combursome armor.
two things Id like to mention after reading: go to venice and check out its armory, its huge and has beautiful and weird shit!
also, read about Haselrigs lobsters, a fully plated unit that absolutely ruled the battlefield - in the 17th century!
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Oberyn on April 20, 2018, 10:46:21 am
Holy shit retards still bringing up Agincourt because it's the only medieval battle they've ever heard about. You realize full plate was basically just starting to exist, largely amoung italian mercenaries and rich aristocrats, when Agincourt happened? Why is it that ignorant tards always point to this one battle, in a war which the english lost? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hundred_Years%27_War_battles
Oh hey gais I've determined the english use of the longbow was completely useless, moronic and obsolete based entirely on the battle of Patay.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Sniger on April 20, 2018, 11:25:20 am
Holy shit retards still bringing up Agincourt because it's the only medieval battle they've ever heard about. You realize full plate was basically just starting to exist, largely amoung italian mercenaries and rich aristocrats, when Agincourt happened? Why is it that ignorant tards always point to this one battle, in a war which the english lost? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hundred_Years%27_War_battles
Oh hey gais I've determined the english use of the longbow was completely useless, moronic and obsolete based entirely on the battle of Patay.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Oberyn on April 20, 2018, 12:46:27 pm
Have a look at the history section. The hostility is very needed, because this exact subject comes up again and again and again, from the same tards who think anglo pop culture is a substitute for actual historical knowledge. Lol plate armor became obsolete just as it was being addopted and starting to reach its apogee/golden age. It's so beyond wrong there's no arguement to be made beyond derision.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 06:47:26 pm
Yes, the knights played a big role in Agincourt. And the french knights were not 'dying of heat exhaustion', instead they stupidly charged the well entrenched positions of the english, through muddy ground. That's a death trap whether you wear armor or not. And the archers were not the only ones there, surprise. The English dismounted knights helped a fair bit.
1. Stop saying 30-60. It's 25-30 at max. And no, it won't kill you. People fall of horses all the time in jousting armor, which is quite a bit heavier. They're fine.
2. Yes, I totally agree. That is, with the visor down. Which was likely only done in lance charges and when getting shot by arrows. Otherwise, the visors were up.
3. Not enough for it to matter over the protection you get
4. Not really. In fact, the armor says "Don't kill me, I have lots of money. Ransom me!" Sure, a priority target. But for other reasons. And that still doesn't mean they'd actually be able to do anything to you. Especially if they were peasants. Wouldn't stand a chance.
5. No it doesn't
6.You don't march with armor on, you march with the armor off. Then you put the armor on, and go to battle. And even if you did march with it on for whatever reason, it would be fine. Just ask anyone who owns an authentic set. An authentic set, not a cheap badly made one.
So after watching some of these HEMA battle videos of people fighting in plate armor you can clearly see these enthusiasts are sometimes completely gassed out in just 30 seconds of "combat" dragging their weapons lazily and completely losing all footwork and defensive posture. At the most i've seen these guys fight for a couple minutes without looking like they are gasping for air and losing all martial coordination. :lol:
Sure people on average were in better shape back in the medieval era, but cmon, just show me a video of people fighting for 15-20 minutes straight without armor and then come back and tell me that wearing 30-60kg is no big deal and not cumbersome.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 07:12:12 pm
So after watching some of these HEMA battle videos of people fighting in plate armor you can clearly see these enthusiasts are sometimes completely gassed out in just 30 seconds of "combat" dragging their weapons lazily and completely losing all footwork and defensive posture. At the most i've seen these guys fight for a couple minutes without looking like they are gasping for air and losing all martial coordination. :lol:
Sure people on average were in better shape back in the medieval era, but cmon, just show me a video of people fighting for 15-20 minutes straight without armor and then come back and tell me that wearing 30-60kg is no big deal and not cumbersome.
What HEMA people fighting in plate armor? HEMA is unarmored. If you mean other guys, not many people have authentic plate armor around. They also fight with the visors down for safety reasons, which is not historical And believe me, a visor up makes all the difference
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 07:16:35 pm
What HEMA people fighting in plate armor? HEMA is unarmored. If you mean other guys, not many people have authentic plate armor around. They also fight with the visors down for safety reasons, which is not historical And believe me, a visor up makes all the difference
I want to recruit some of these superstar omegalul knights to fight in MMA since fighters there following scientifically proven nutritional diet plans and workouts can only last 5 minutes in the ring without a round break and you're telling me that wearing 60kg of armor + weaponry is ez.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Paul on April 20, 2018, 07:20:01 pm
Yeah, how can they even walk in >90kg equipment? It's crazy!
I mean have you ever tried putting on a 120kg suit? That's leaving home with an American on your back.
Come on, guys. You can't fight with >150kg armor. That's just stupid.
Seriously.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Oberyn on April 20, 2018, 08:19:00 pm
How much do you think the average modern infantryman carries? And that is even more cumbersome than armor would've been because of the weight distribution.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 08:28:39 pm
How much do you think the average modern infantryman carries? And that is even more cumbersome than armor would've been because of the weight distribution.
All your combat strength comes from your legs, and wearing armor having weight on your legs would greatly impede your ability to fight. The top weight distribution wouldn't be the problem. Your body would also need to expend much more energy with the added weight.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on April 20, 2018, 08:38:22 pm
I mean I'm a fat as fuck merican and i can and have done hour long sieges before with near constant fighting with 200+ people in them. Manning the gate with a 10ft spear the whole time fighting off wave after wave. I'm sure people who actually work out could easily hold up way better than me
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Jarl_Onurb on April 20, 2018, 08:38:54 pm
I want to recruit some of these superstar omegalul knights to fight in MMA since fighters there following scientifically proven nutritional diet plans and workouts can only last 5 minutes in the ring without a round break and you're telling me that wearing 60kg of armor + weaponry is ez.
so you are telling us that it doesnt matter if a fighter uses armor or not? it will still get tired after few minutes? Then i would gladily put some armor on, i prefer to be tired and protected rather than tired and unprotected
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 08:41:38 pm
so you are telling us that it doesnt matter if a fighter uses armor or not? it will still get tired after few minutes? Then i would gladily put some armor on, i prefer to be tired and protected rather than tired and unprotected
You wouldn't tire as quickly as if you were wearing lighter armor. And moving quickly keeping in formation would be more important than being a omeglul duelist hero, if you were isolated in combat or broken from your formation you would be mobbed down and killed quickly no mater how much armor you have, there is much higher chance of that happening if your body is physically exhausted and incapable of moving, which is why the majority of fully armored Knights fought on horseback.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 08:54:11 pm
All your combat strength comes from your legs, and wearing armor having weight on your legs would greatly impede your ability to fight. The top weight distribution wouldn't be the problem. Your body would also need to expend much more energy with the added weight.
And that study was the dumbest study I've seen to date.
They used armor which was neither well districuted, too heavy for the user, and basically out all that fucking weight on the shoulders and the legs. Ofc you'd get tired
I'm tired of arguing with you. I know of people who own armor, and who say that it's no issue to wear is for extended periods of time. I'm gonna believe that far more than I'm gonna believe some random guy on the internet.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 08:55:13 pm
You wouldn't tire as quickly as if you were wearing lighter armor. And moving quickly keeping in formation would be more important than being a omeglul duelist hero, if you were isolated in combat or broken from your formation you would be mobbed down and killed quickly no mater how much armor you have, there is much higher chance of that happening if your body is physically exhausted and incapable of moving, which is why the majority of fully armored Knights fought on horseback.
No, if you're wearing that armor you have:
1. Less chance to get killed 2. And if they managed to immobilize you, they'd try to take you alive
win-win situation.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 08:57:03 pm
And that study was the dumbest study I've seen to date.
They used armor which was neither well districuted, too heavy for the user, and basically out all that fucking weight on the shoulders and the legs. Ofc you'd get tired
I'm tired of arguing with you. I know of people who own armor, and who say that it's no issue to wear is for extended periods of time. I'm gonna believe that far more than I'm gonna believe some random guy on the internet.
Oh a test done by a medieval Historical community backed by an actual University's scientific proof isn't enough??? LOL
The proof is in the science bro. They even mention your exact false claims of properly made armor not impairing activity would still cause major energy expenditure and restrict normal breathing.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 09:12:10 pm
Oh a test done by a medieval Historical community backed by an actual University's scientific proof isn't enough??? LOL
The proof is in the science bro. They even mention your exact false claims of properly made armor not impairing activity would still cause major energy expenditure and restrict normal breathing.
'medieval historic community' my ass
If we take a look at the armor they used you can immediately see it wasn't authentic. Those were scientists, who knew their stuff when it came down to measuring. They didn't know jack shit about armors, and it's easy to see
First off, they already said they were using armors that weigh 50 kilos. Which is bollocks, because no combat armor ever found has weighed 50 kilos. They have weighed around 25. That's half
Second off, they said that it was uncomfortable to wear.
Which also means tat the armor was completely wrong, because armor was made to be comfortable. People who own authentic armor state it to be comfortable to wear, move and fight in.
So who am I gonna believe? A bunch of scientists whit no expertise in the medieval armors, or the worlds leading armor expert Tobias Capwell and what he is saying? I think I'm gonna go with the armor expert
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 09:12:21 pm
If the armour in either the test or the hobbyists isnt exactly identical in weight, shape and design to the armour used historically then it proves nothing one way or the other.
The study just proves what is already basic common sense, that you are trading mobility and energy for protection.
The fact that you are wearing well crafted or evenly distributed armor doesn't matter because it is the leg armor that is causing most of the extra energy expenditure. Modern infantrymen don't expend as much energy while carrying the same overall loads because they don't have extra weight dispersed on their legs.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 09:16:06 pm
The study just proves what is already basic common sense, that you are trading mobility and energy for protection.
The fact that you are wearing well crafted or evenly distributed armor doesn't matter because it is the leg armor that is causing most of the extra energy expenditure.
The leg armor which weighs about 6-7 kilos.
Yes... very much extra energy expensiture. Oh so much...
Face it, it's basically insignificant
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 09:18:04 pm
If we take a look at the armor they used you can immediately see it wasn't authentic. Those were scientists, who knew their stuff when it came down to measuring. They didn't know jack shit about armors, and it's easy to see
First off, they already said they were using armors that weigh 50 kilos. Which is bollocks, because no combat armor ever found has weighed 50 kilos. They have weighed around 25. That's half
Second off, they said that it was uncomfortable to wear.
Which also means tat the armor was completely wrong, because armor was made to be comfortable. People who own authentic armor state it to be comfortable to wear, move and fight in.
So who am I gonna believe? A bunch of scientists whit no expertise in the medieval armors, or the worlds leading armor expert Tobias Capwell and what he is saying? I think I'm gonna go with the armor expert
Again any hobbyist can run around their house in their armor or do backflips for some youtube video and think everything is fine because they are not showing examples of prolonged activity and it's consequences. This study incorporates finding actual abnormal human breathing patterns while wearing plate armor and monitors and calculates the extra energy expended into real statistics , something a hobbyist or armor expert is not doing or thinking about.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Oberyn on April 20, 2018, 09:37:03 pm
No see the actual people who lived through the time period and used the things in war were just misguided. Fat american academics with a bone to pick have proven scientifically that plate armor was useless.
"After several hours of fighting there were four dead on the French side and two on the English side. Both sides were exhausted and agreed to a break for refreshments and bandaging of injuries. After the battle resumed, the English leader Bemborough was wounded and then killed, apparently by du Bois. At this point the English faction formed a tight defensive body, which the French repeatedly attacked. A German soldier called Croquart is said to have displayed the greatest prowess in rallying the Anglo-Breton defence"
Wow I'm sure there's absolutely no other contemporary accounts of armor in battle. Fighting for hours, literally impossible man, not like the use of armor in war stretches back to fucking antiquity. That's some powerful drugs you're on Salad.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 09:45:05 pm
No see the actual people who lived through the time period and used the things in war were just misguided. Fat american academics with a bone to pick have proven scientifically that plate armor was useless.
"After several hours of fighting there were four dead on the French side and two on the English side. Both sides were exhausted and agreed to a break for refreshments and bandaging of injuries. After the battle resumed, the English leader Bemborough was wounded and then killed, apparently by du Bois. At this point the English faction formed a tight defensive body, which the French repeatedly attacked. A German soldier called Croquart is said to have displayed the greatest prowess in rallying the Anglo-Breton defence"
Wow I'm sure there's absolutely no other contemporary accounts of armor in battle. Fighting for hours, literally impossible man, not like the use of armor in war stretches back to fucking antiquity. That's some powerful drugs you're on Salad.
LOL I never said plate armor was useless please don't quote me on things I never said. I said it has serious drawbacks that wouldn't be apparent to a casual enthusiast or historian. I've already shown examples of tournament fighting Oberyn. It's also important to remember that these tournament knights were the equivalent of modern day professional athletes, they were not the norm for society at the time and even among them quality and skill varied greatly. These tournaments were heavily regulated and refereed and are not a good example of an actual medieval battle with prolonged combat with no breaks.
It's also important to take some of these accounts with a grain of salt. The grandeur and tall tales often came before reality and facts back then when putting their kingdom's reputation or honor into question.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 09:49:17 pm
Again any hobbyist can run around their house in their armor or do backflips for some youtube video and think everything is fine because they are not showing examples of prolonged activity and it's consequences. This study incorporates finding actual abnormal human breathing patterns while wearing plate armor and monitors and calculates the extra energy expended into real statistics , something a hobbyist or armor expert is not doing or thinking about.
I said, one youtuber who owns armor has worn it several hours in a couple of cases - up to 6 hours or so. Not sitting still. He was fine in it.
And you seem to think that medieval battles required you to fight with a lot of stamina absorption. Simply not the case. Formations were rigid, with rarely any extended 1v1 combat ever happening. At most you'd stand poking someone for a few hours at max until they or you decided to rout. It's not like you can't catch a break either. No one can fight for hours upon hours without rest, armor or no armor.
Yes, you tire faster in armor. That doesn't make it useless. It protects you against the countless arrows, the countless hits, the countless blows that would otherwise kill you. Its worth a bit of compromise in mobility and stamina, especially when you don't need said mobility and stamina to fight effectively.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 09:51:04 pm
LOL I never said plate armor was useless please don't quote me on things I never said. I said it has serious drawbacks that wouldn't be apparent to a casual enthusiast or historian. I've already shown examples of tournament fighting Oberyn. It's also important to remember that these tournament knights were the equivalent of modern day professional athletes, they were not the norm for society at the time and even among them quality and skill varied greatly. These tournaments were heavily regulated and refereed and are not a good example of an actual medieval battle with prolonged combat with no breaks.
All drawbacks are apparent to anyone who owns armor Salad. Because people who own it seek to reenact as much as they can. They train in it, fight in it, test it to its limits. They'd know far better than you would
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Sniger on April 20, 2018, 10:00:52 pm
dont forget that smithing and forging today is very different from the medieval times. today we have light weight metals/alloys and technology they didnt have back then.
not to mention foam and other materials for padding and so on.
also, correct me if im wrong, but i believe armours of 50kg+ was only for cav
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 10:03:50 pm
dont forget that smithing and forging today is very different from the medieval times. today we have light weight metals/alloys and technology they didnt have back then.
not to mention foam and other materials for padding and so on
Yes, but the people I'm talking about have authentic stuff. The closest thing to medieval quality steel, thickness, the padding etc. For example Tobias Capwell and Ian LaSpina. Their armors are as close as possible to armors of the medieval time.
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Grytviken on April 20, 2018, 10:13:36 pm
All drawbacks are apparent to anyone who owns armor Salad. Because people who own it seek to reenact as much as they can. They train in it, fight in it, test it to its limits. They'd know far better than you would
I'm not trying to poke fun at your hobby, i'm just saying comparing reenactment to reality is not a good argument. It's not exactly what I would call a "hardcore" representation of Medieval life or warfare .
Cool to watch but it doesn't prove anything because it's extremely low energy and not realistic at all. ( obviously for safety reasons )
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corrazinas no one will care about
Post by: Deus Immortalis on April 20, 2018, 10:17:38 pm
I'm not trying to poke fun at your hobby, i'm just saying comparing reenactment to reality is not a good argument. It's not exactly what I would call a "hardcore" representation of Medieval life or warfare .
Cool to watch but it doesn't prove anything because it's extremely low energy and not realistic at all. ( obviously for safety reasons )
No, that is not what I'm talking about. Those people often wear unhistorical armors, which have too much padding, too many safety features. Real armor was worn with minimal padding, there were no visor locks (well except for a few helmets), and the battles were even less chaotic
Title: Re: Just some fun facts about the corazzinas no one will care about
Post by: Rando on April 21, 2018, 03:48:57 am
normally I'd prefer to post a colorful insult, but today I'd prefer to just say that you're a boring and unimaginative person if the intent behind this post is what I suspect it was.