cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: JasonPastman on July 17, 2015, 01:34:53 am

Title: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 17, 2015, 01:34:53 am
So make HA viable again but give then the same arch as lance cav.  I think the will balance the class, and force them to hybrid with a sword.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Grumbs on July 17, 2015, 09:00:48 am
Nah. HA serves no purpose but to be annoying to every other class in the game
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 17, 2015, 10:15:48 am
Nah. HA serves no purpose but to be annoying to every other class in the game

Every class that kills me is annoying
 HA is useless now, removed damage cap..
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Porthos on July 17, 2015, 12:33:38 pm
Let them be. It might also revive the Siege server :lol:
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 17, 2015, 12:53:27 pm
I dislike them as much as most, but theyve never really been that strong tbh, having a damage cap is just silly. Flags solved most ranged issues anyways, but I do think flags could spawn a bit earlier.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: POOPHAMMER on July 17, 2015, 12:58:38 pm
I was playing on my naked swordsman the other day (15/30, no ironflesh) and took 3 shots to the head and still had over 25% life

Seems legit
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 17, 2015, 01:44:11 pm
I was playing on my naked swordsman the other day (15/30, no ironflesh) and took 3 shots to the head and still had over 25% life

Seems legit

Lets not forget that the issue with them was that they left every other player feeling like they had been cheated.

When you can ride away from a target while dealing substantial and consistent damage over time without putting any effort into it, such a class shouldn't be permitted in this game.  Kitting footed range are already annoying enough.

I think San's changes were good, 20% damage reduction plus the speed reduction, but there should also be a lance arch.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Mr.K. on July 17, 2015, 02:29:12 pm
HA used to counter cav and that's what it should still do. Then it would have a perfect place in a rock-paper-scissors -balancing world. I remember from two years ago when we regularly tried to get one or two HA mercs on our side for the pure purpose of dismounting the enemy cav and stop them from harassing archers and spawnraping infantry. HAs used to do very little damage on heavy armored guys targets, but were easily able to take down any light to medium targets, like horses.

I never quite understood why this balance was changed. With the current soak and reduce values it seems like the options are that HAs do no damage at all on anything (current), or become overpowered due to ability to kite and kill anything (what we had half a year ago). Do we still have active devs that could look into the possibility of tweaking the values so that heavy armor would actually protect against horse archers, but not so much against regular longbow+bodkin archers? It seems like this balance is tough to get perfect with the Warband engine though...

Anyway, HA needs a buff as it's not usable atm. My archer char survives four headshots from a HA - and he has no head armor.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 17, 2015, 03:01:42 pm
HA used to counter cav and that's what it should still do. Then it would have a perfect place in a rock-paper-scissors -balancing world. I remember from two years ago when we regularly tried to get one or two HA mercs on our side for the pure purpose of dismounting the enemy cav and stop them from harassing archers and spawnraping infantry. HAs used to do very little damage on heavy armored guys targets, but were easily able to take down any light to medium targets, like horses.

I never quite understood why this balance was changed. With the current soak and reduce values it seems like the options are that HAs do no damage at all on anything (current), or become overpowered due to ability to kite and kill anything (what we had half a year ago). Do we still have active devs that could look into the possibility of tweaking the values so that heavy armor would actually protect against horse archers, but not so much against regular longbow+bodkin archers? It seems like this balance is tough to get perfect with the Warband engine though...

Anyway, HA needs a buff as it's not usable atm. My archer char survives four headshots from a HA - and he has no head armor.

Yea so, making the HA a counter to melee cav is not a good Idea.  Cav already are countered by basically any player who knows how to deal with them.  If they become a substantial threat to cav again, then all the cav will just go HA (as i did) if they still want to ride a horse, on top of that many other players will go HA, because the only counter to them will be other range.

With arch limitations at least they can't kite and shoot which otherwise made them un-counterable by other cav or any other class not range for that matter, and this would require actual skill in terms of riding and maneuvering to actually make the shot.  The damage should still be substantially limited with that but definitely increased from the current cap.

Cav v Cav fights are one of the most fun things about this mod imo (ive played every class).  HA's had and still do, although futility, attempt to ruin those engagements.  HA should not be a viable counter to Cav or anything else for that matter but rather a limited support class if its made viable at all.

I hate the notion of rock paper etc.  as it puts too much emphasis on the class instead of the skill of the individual, which is what makes this game fun.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 17, 2015, 10:43:35 pm
removing the damage cap will fix horse archery; it was fine last patch before the damage cap was overlooked by the revert.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Dionysus on July 18, 2015, 03:04:04 am
Mounted range has no place in multiplayer.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 18, 2015, 12:38:35 pm
Mounted range has no place in multiplayer.

Dionysus has no place in multiplayer. :evil:
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 18, 2015, 06:51:08 pm
removing the damage cap will fix horse archery; it was fine last patch before the damage cap was overlooked by the revert.

So, you may recall that server pop was topping on NA was topping at 30ish and averaged at 20 during that period. Folks like kojiro were topping the charts with with their damage scores.  Additionally no one was viably playing light cav at that time on NA.  Without an arch curve nerf, cav and agi builds are going to get trolled hard from this, as well as everyone else in the open.

The simple fact is that Horse damage is all about the speed bonus and hit area.  When chasing a fleeing cav, generally only a lance is viable so even if he can reach him because the attacker has no speed bonus and probably a penalty the damage done to the HA horse is minimal, while the HA has full advantage of the speed bonus and the head of the horse which will be facing him.  This is why the arch is so important in cav battles. Having an arch will force the HA to actually engage the Cav, instead of an agonizing cat and mouse chase. 

What you propose is returning to the equivalent of a melee chasing the kiting archer, but in this case he is actually able to shoot and kill you as he makes his escape.  Can you imagine the rage on the forums if archers could do this?  Why allow it for HA?

How can it be argued that Lance cav should have the arch nerf but not Ranged Cav?
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 18, 2015, 09:04:36 pm
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What this shows is that 53% of respondents, a majority, want ranged to be nerfed.  The poll had 49 respondents which is a statistically viable sample of the current active population.  The "give them run" option was included to reduce troll responses and allow for a very attractive non-nerfing option.  The poll is several weeks old, a duration of which was only during this patch.

The question is then, if the majority of population want ranged nerfed, then why add more of it to the game, especially in such an effective capacity?
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 12:22:47 am
So, you may recall that server pop was topping on NA was topping at 30ish and averaged at 20 during that period. Folks like kojiro were topping the charts with with their damage scores.  Additionally no one was viably playing light cav at that time on NA.  Without an arch curve nerf, cav and agi builds are going to get trolled hard from this, as well as everyone else in the open.

The simple fact is that Horse damage is all about the speed bonus and hit area.  When chasing a fleeing cav, generally only a lance is viable so even if he can reach him because the attacker has no speed bonus and probably a penalty the damage done to the HA horse is minimal, while the HA has full advantage of the speed bonus and the head of the horse which will be facing him.  This is why the arch is so important in cav battles. Having an arch will force the HA to actually engage the Cav, instead of an agonizing cat and mouse chase. 

What you propose is returning to the equivalent of a melee chasing the kiting archer, but in this case he is actually able to shoot and kill you as he makes his escape.  Can you imagine the rage on the forums if archers could do this?  Why allow it for HA?

How can it be argued that Lance cav should have the arch nerf but not Ranged Cav?

The angle isn't the problem and never was the problem. if you take that from Horse archers you will have them just as useless as they are now. The way Horse archers have to play to get ANY kills is high risk; bumping and then shooting which does reward a lot of points but often times not many kills. So the class is "annoying" but hardly considered "effective"

Balancing the game according to what the people want is the most idiotic form of balance there could ever be. Besides that poll means nothing, 30% of that vote alone is targeted at one specific type of range which is throwers and I myself can not argue that throwers are fine currently they do need nerf in more ways than one. Looking even further into the bias of this poll it should be taken into consideration that cRPG has always been ANTI range. Also those 11 votes do matter if you are truly concerned with what the people want; trolls or not they play the game and their vote should be considered all the same. Following your logic of balancing the game according to what the 53% want.

You could make another poll and name it "buff what" and you will find that the numbers flip flop because people vote with only one person in mind, themselves and "nerf what" to the individual is "what class annoys me the most", not "What class is most deserving of a nerf."

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Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 01:06:47 am
The angle isn't the problem and never was the problem. if you take that from Horse archers you will have them just as useless as they are now. The way Horse archers have to play to get ANY kills is high risk; bumping and then shooting which does reward a lot of points but often times not many kills. So the class is "annoying" but hardly considered "effective"
 [/spoiler]

The game's not really just about kills, you are not number one on the score board and don't get valor for getting them.  It's all about dps this is where valor, ranking high on the charts and multies comes from.
So, Kojiro after the san patch use to ride around randomly spraying people and was easily able to valor farm often topping the charts.
Having played every class in the game, HA is the lowest risk class in the game and the easiest.

angle restriction is unneeded; Horse archers already have a -20% speed -20% damage and limited ammo; they already get ran down by even much slower horses simply because even with high riding the speed penalty for using a bow is harsh enough for them to be caught and killed. Besides one can argue that the most effective spot for cav to attempt to lance was directly in front of them which is still allowed; where as the most effective location for an archer on horse back to shoot is behind them; if this angle restriction was set in stone they would lose their most effective spots being the sides and the back.

No, just like lance cav the most effective place to take the shot is going full speed dead ahead so they can take advantage of the speed bonus.  Horse Archers have over 30 shots

You also negate my argument: 
The simple fact is that Horse damage is all about the speed bonus and hit area.  When chasing a fleeing cav, generally only a lance is viable so even if he can reach him because the attacker has no speed bonus and probably a penalty the damage done to the HA horse is minimal, while the HA has full advantage of the speed bonus and the head of the horse which will be facing him.  This is why the arch is so important in cav battles. Having an arch will force the HA to actually engage the Cav, instead of an agonizing cat and mouse chase. 

In fact the speed penalty suffered by the HA will convert into added damage from the speed multi against the perusing horse.

Additionally:

The fact of the matter is with 7 riding I can out maneuver any other horse avoiding lances or swords on a donkey.  If I was shooting back I would never lose in this competition.  I mean just Ctrl-J if you don't know how to ride. Shouldn't this class require some skill to play?



Balancing the game according to what the people want is the most idiotic form of balance there could ever be. Besides that poll means nothing, 30% of that vote alone is targeted at one specific type of range which is throwers and I myself can not argue that throwers are fine currently they do need nerf in more ways than one. Looking even further into the bias of this poll it should be taken into consideration that cRPG has always been ANTI range. Also those 11 votes do matter if you are truly concerned with what the people want; trolls or not they play the game and their vote should be considered all the same. Following your logic of balancing the game according to what the 53% want.


So here you explain how you have no respect for the opinion of the majority of the community regarding balance, duh.  Then you point out the 30% thrower vote, which are the only class that can effectively kite and shoot, until HA is buffed.  A far as the give them run vote, their opinion is respected as saying that nothing should be nerfed or that they wanted to reply give them run. 

The point of grouping the range vote is that by buffing HA you increase the saturation of range damage from increased projectiles that will be taken over all, which obviously at least 53% of the of the people that voted don't want as they are expressing their desire to reduce some form of a particular ranges effectiveness, the end result is the reception of projectile damage.


You could make another poll and name it "buff what" and you will find that the numbers flip flop because people vote with only one person in mind, themselves and "nerf what" to the individual is "what class annoys me the most", not "What class is most deserving of a nerf."

The how do you explain the substantial give them run vote.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Finally, I base these opinions on actual experience of playing HA for months, including during San's HA nerf.

With 7pd, +3 Barbed Arrows, +3 Horn Bow the base damage after the 20% penalty is 31.776 with 36 arrows and he can still bring in a 2 slotted weapon.  If that HA is on a Champ Arab he can ride circles around anything and with that damage its not going to be more then 4-5 arrows (more for plated horses) and probably less because the attacking cav has to rush him so there is the speed multi.  The community does not want jerks riding around spraying 34 damage on average with no risk and kiting any possible melee threat.  Trollish is all that is.

Perhaps another alternative would be a 20% decrease to all horse stats for HA.


Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 02:55:29 am
I think you are taking this way out of proportion; lance angle works fine for melee cavalry but would destroy range cavalry making them less viable than a level 1 peasant.

you say that the most effective place for a Horse archer to shoot is straight ahead but you are dead wrong; that is the best way to get yourself killed. That lance cavalry you are going against is going to 1 shot if you if you miss - but for that risk you are taking you have to take that same risk at least 10 times to take down that one lancer.

Where as that one lancer is taking 0 risk in charging the horse archer.

if you are worried about horse archers simply valor farming then reduce their point gain rather than destroying the class completely.

-20% in all stats for horses on horse archers is ridiculous

Horse archers are far from the "lowest risk" and the "easiest" class in the game. 

I base my opinion on playing horse archery for over the course of 2 years (off and on) and yes I have no respect for the cRPG communities biased opinions on balance as you shouldn't have any respect for my opinions on balance but here we are debating in a thread that will have absolutely zero impact on future balance discussions.

Simply removing the damage cap will fix horse archery's current state of being extremely useless and afterwards it will be a semi viable class once again. There will always be people that want to nerf it without justification.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 03:46:42 am
I think you are taking this way out of proportion; lance angle works fine for melee cavalry but would destroy range cavalry making them less viable than a level 1 peasant.
I base my opinion on playing horse archery for over the course of 2 years (off and on) and yes I have no respect for the cRPG communities biased opinions on balance as you shouldn't have any respect for my opinions on balance but here we are debating in a thread that will have absolutely zero impact on future balance discussions.


Desire, have you ever even been melee cav?  Because if you haven't played both and really every class you don't know what you are talking about which is what is sounds like.  And that last part about the disrespect, no wonder this community can be so shitty sometime.  I think our leaders ought to have a mutual respect with the community, I'd bet alot that had you and other of a similar opinion not only would this mod be in a better state and population, but MG:BG would have been kick started.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 04:03:01 am
Desire, have you ever even been melee cav?  Because if you haven't played both and really every class you don't know what you are talking about which is what is sounds like.  And that last part about the disrespect, no wonder this community can be so shitty sometime.  I think our leaders ought to have a mutual respect with the community, I'd bet alot that had you and other of a similar opinion not only would this mod be in a better state and population, but MG:BG would have been kick started.

I have played every class the same as you; melee cav its exceptionally easy to ignore horse archers and go about your business its when you get frustrated and play right into their hand that you become mindlessly baited into their game. I've played heavy 1h cav and extremely light lance cavalry and never once did I have any problems with any horse archers. I don't respect the communities balance decisions because this is where it has gotten us thus far why should it be respect.

I didn't and don't care about or of melee battlegrounds for donkey crew I hope it works out but I'm not interested.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 04:08:25 am
I have played every class the same as you; melee cav its exceptionally easy to ignore horse archers and go about your business its when you get frustrated and play right into their hand that you become mindlessly baited into their game. I've played heavy 1h cav and extremely light lance cavalry and never once did I have any problems with any horse archers.

Uh, see for me, thay would follow me around the map keeping their distance and shooting at me until I was dismounted forcing me to hang out by spawn near our range the whole round making any sort of light or even medium cav unplayable, then if I brought in a heavy horse they would still do the same this time farming me for valor and they were not chargeable, always able to outrun me.

I don't know why you were never targeted, I guess they never perceived you as a threat.  Infact I've never seen you at the top or near the top of the boards.  I remember you playing Scilla, riding around with a ton of riding with that great lance on ur courser, a troll build, but that was years ago, how can you comment on the current balance if you haven't played it competitively.  The experience is completely different when you play competitively people react to you differently as do you to them, this is when the game truly become the great mod it is to us, this is how I've treated all the classes, and without that experience, you really don't even know what this game is really about, you haven't c-rpged.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 04:56:10 am
Uh, see for me, thay would follow me around the map keeping their distance and shooting at me until I was dismounted forcing me to hang out by spawn near our range the whole round making any sort of light or even medium cav unplayable, then if I brought in a heavy horse they would still do the same this time farming me for valor and they were not chargeable, always able to outrun me.

I don't know why you were never targeted, I guess they never perceived you as a threat.  Infact I've never seen you at the top or near the top of the boards.  The experience is completely different when you play competitively people react to you differently as do you to them, this is how I've treated all the classes, and without that experience, you really don't even know what this game is really about, you haven't c-rpged.

Well I stopped trying about a year before you got decent at the game. Just before tydeus started to ruin the game in general. To be honest before recently my only knowledge of you was that you gave admins trouble and stalked a player irl and that you were to be watched when present in the server. You have either no knowledge of what my alts are or simply never seen me topping the boards because you must of started playing after I quit playing battle/siege. I'm not saying I'm great or even good but I've definitely topped the boards my fair share in c-RPG history. But you are right I don't play this game competitively anymore, in my opinion, it's current state is too broken to be considered a "competitive" game.

To say I don't really know what this game is about and that I haven't played it is just 100% wrong.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 04:58:14 am
Well I stopped trying about a year before you got decent at the game. Just before tydeus started to ruin the game in general. To be honest before recently my only knowledge of you was that you gave admins trouble and stalked a player irl and that you were to be watched when present in the server. You have either no knowledge of what my alts are or simply never seen me topping the boards because you must of started playing after I quit playing battle/siege. I'm not saying I'm great or even good but I've definitely topped the boards my fair share in c-RPG history. But you are right I don't play this game competitively anymore, in my opinion its current state is to broken to be considered a "competitive" game.

To say I don't really know what this game is about and that I haven't played it is just 100% wrong.

Well, you can see my first ban date if you click on my profile, why else register on the forums, lol.  My point is if you aren't trying you haven't experienced the limits of the current classes, for a year now.

And, your prior knowledge of me goes back to the previous point that we should stop shitting on each other, cuz well there you go, thing is all or most those people that said those things about me and trolled me, not that I was an angel, are long gone.  I would love it if you would be part of the community, you know, the actual in game community, instead of from my perspective, admining from the shadows.

I think the balance is quite good now, I have alotta fun, come join us for real.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 05:04:31 am
Why try playing a game that I simply can not enjoy outside of Strategus? I know where I think balance was the best and that is the state of the game in which I'll try again if we ever get back to that state... which is kinda the polar opposite of what it is now. Either way I've made it clear that i disagree with this and any further discussion will simply derail your thread and result in you belittling me based on my most recent activity (which is a joke in of itself.)

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Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 05:08:04 am
So, i was editing while u were posting, but I agree my favorite balance was in 2011, but it feels good right now, I really hope you give it a try.

And as far as derailing anything, lol, I'm pretty sure nothing Ive ever said on here has made any difference to what you guys with the colored bars above your picture do, so yea...
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: Nightingale on July 19, 2015, 05:12:31 am
So, i was editing while u were posting, but I agree my favorite balance was in 2011, but it feels good right now, I really hope you give it a try.

And as far as derailing anything, lol, I'm pretty sure nothing Ive ever said on here has made any difference to what you guys with the colored bars above your picture do, so yea...

As I've said in this thread anything we discuss here will probably never make any sort of impact on balance discussion (The balancing community is much much smaller than you would probably like to believe and admins are not part of said group.)
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 19, 2015, 05:19:25 am
As I've said in this thread anything we discuss here will probably never make any sort of impact on balance discussion (The balancing community is much much smaller than you would probably like to believe and admins are not part of said group.)

Yea, I know, lol.
Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: JasonPastman on July 31, 2015, 09:54:39 pm
NERF THIS SHIT!
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Title: Re: Buff HA But...
Post by: kojiro34 on September 03, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Remove the 15 dmg caps !