cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 09:51:13 am

Title: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 09:51:13 am
Thought it was a pretty cool article, with charts and shit. It's pretty amazing to see such numbers.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/13059210/esports-massive-industry-growing

Charts never lie - BADPLAYER
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Christo on July 01, 2015, 11:20:36 am
HURR DURR ESPORT IS NOT SPORT CHESS IS NOT SPORT EITHER ONLY FIZIKAL EKTIVITI EZZ SPERT EMERHGERD

There, I concluded this thread before it even started.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Molly on July 01, 2015, 11:23:12 am
So called Dramaturge blew it.

I blame Christo.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Christo on July 01, 2015, 11:24:06 am
 :lol:
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: [ptx] on July 01, 2015, 11:28:01 am
Goddamnit, Christo, this thread had potential :mad:
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Christo on July 01, 2015, 11:30:42 am
Oh come on, been there, done that.

Was beaten to death already, shit comes up each time there's a dota 2 international or something.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Casimir on July 01, 2015, 11:45:45 am
Lets get it back on track.

This is just an excuse for nerds to tell people they do sports when people ask them though isn't it.  The dictionary literally defines a sport as 'a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:'.   I don't personally believe that clicking a mouse and keyboard counts as physical effort. Just call it what it is, video games.  Its a competition, a challenge, a league, but it sure as hell ain't a damned sport.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leesin on July 01, 2015, 11:51:52 am
The only 'sport' where a 300lb blob of fat with the motor skills of a retarded toddler can be competitive, virtual athletes, what a joke  :lol:.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: jtobiasm on July 01, 2015, 11:52:42 am
thats why its called Esports not just simply sport
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: IR_Kuoin on July 01, 2015, 11:53:04 am
We have sports, and then we have Esports. EEEEE-Spoooorts.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vovka on July 01, 2015, 12:09:20 pm
too many niggas on dat channel
I demand equal time finding on the screen for all races
for now niggas on screen for 90% of time
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2015, 12:09:54 pm
You must be one massive twat anyway to answer yes if someone asks whether you do sports, if you do e-sports. I still think e-sport is an okay term though. It clearly describes that the activity is electronic and thus non-physical, so it is a sport in everything but the physical part. Guess the term pro-gaming would be less pretentious, but to me it just seems like the whole discussion is firmly rooted in a backwards stigma that gaming is nerdy.

The only 'sport' where a 300lb blob of fat with the motor skills of a retarded toddler can be competitive, virtual athletes, what a joke  :lol:.
First of all, gaming obviously requires very good motor skills, and second of all there are tons of questionable sports, for some of which you can easily be a fat blob. Darts, cue sports, chess, motorized sports, shooting, fishing, curling, sailing and so on.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 12:15:25 pm
Lets get it back on track.

This is just an excuse for nerds to tell people they do sports when people ask them though isn't it.  The dictionary literally defines a sport as 'a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:'.   I don't personally believe that clicking a mouse and keyboard counts as physical effort. Just call it what it is, video games.  Its a competition, a challenge, a league, but it sure as hell ain't a damned sport.

I don't think anyone really thinks esports require the same amount (or even close to) of physical effort compared to real sports. As tobi said, esports =/ sports. As for the general/overall effort and skills required (from chess-like thinking skills to motorics/precision skills), it's pretty much on the same level though. And the same goes for rewards and viewers. It's not quite there yet, I think, but it's getting very close, and it's rising with an alarming rate, which is what the article shows.

I think more and more people are recognizing this, that's why you see big names such as Mark Cuban (billionaire, owner of NBA team Dallas Mavericks) try to cash in on the esport train with betting:
http://www.inc.com/graham-winfrey/mark-cuban-unikrn.html?cid=sf01001

This years International (Dota2) prize pool is going over 15 million dollars, that is some serious money. As soon as you have such amounts of money, you will see all kinds of people trying to cash in on it. Teams, trainers, managers, player training schedules, team houses, sponsors, it's all here already, very similar to real sports.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if esports goes over sports once the 'gaming' generation gets older. Heck, looking at the charts I think it might happen sooner than we realize.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Xant on July 01, 2015, 01:59:58 pm
Lets get it back on track.

This is just an excuse for nerds to tell people they do sports when people ask them though isn't it.  The dictionary literally defines a sport as 'a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:'.   I don't personally believe that clicking a mouse and keyboard counts as physical effort. Just call it what it is, video games.  Its a competition, a challenge, a league, but it sure as hell ain't a damned sport.
Do you move your mouse with your mind?
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: IR_Kuoin on July 01, 2015, 02:08:57 pm
Here we go ...
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leesin on July 01, 2015, 02:15:36 pm

First of all, gaming obviously requires very good motor skills, and second of all there are tons of questionable sports, for some of which you can easily be a fat blob. Darts, cue sports, chess, motorized sports, shooting, fishing, curling, sailing and so on.

 I couldn't care less what people call a sport to be honest, there are plenty of sports I think are a bigger joke than e-gaming, but I didn't expect you to be the one to bite  :lol:. Though I disagree that you need "very good motor skills" because that is entirely dependent on what game you're playing, certain games use just a few hotkeys with a bunch of mouse clicks and it's all just down to the most basic of muscle memory that even the most uncoordinated lard arse would pick up within thousands of hours of playtime just like all the other competitive gamers.

E-sports in the big games consist of A LOT of players nowadays and the majority of them are the tryhards that rage hard over mic or public chat when someone on their team makes a small mistake or something that happens that they think is lame, the guys you see boasting over chat in games about their competitive play like they actually think its some kind of life achievement. The minority of them are the ones that are actually naturally really good at the games they play and don't feel the need to shit their pants and spit all over their monitor when they lose even if they do get pissed off. Each to their own but I think it's a joke to call it a real sport lol.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Casimir on July 01, 2015, 02:27:13 pm
Do you move your mouse with your mind?

If you find it a physical effort to move a mouse or operate a keyboard you are either physically or mentally handicapped.  It's a physical action, the same as blinking or breathing but it isnt exactly a strain is it.  On that note I don't believe stuff like darts, snooker or chess are sports either, but that is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 03:02:04 pm
Wow Esports, so impressive, such a display of physical skill and control.

Brb gonna go fuck my Egirlfriend, need tissues to clean the disk tray after

Your point being?

I always wondered what is up with the blind hate like this. Is it that people simply can't comprehend esports, or is it that people earning money with playing games is somehow upsetting them? Is it that they're projecting their own life on it, being jealous because some people earn good money doing things they like, and they don't?
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 03:33:31 pm
Blind hate? Who's blind hating? Being a competent computer game athlete is an admirable and impressive physical feat, kinda like all that totally real sex i'm having with my computer whilst reading that Full Metal Alchemist porn manga for the 20th time (you know the one I mean)

You talk as if anyone was calling esports an admirable or impressive physical feat, did you even read the thread?
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 03:39:47 pm
It's just a fancy name for playing games, gaming, being a gamer. The term 'Esport' sounds too self-glorifying.

But I retract my bit about the FMA porn manga, crazy coincidence that I posted this *before* I saw your post about that freaky Chimera dog. I cant argue with a FMA Brother.

It's just a fucking name, nobody is calling it an actual sport, thus e-sport, the e in front is the key. It determines the 'sport' is being executed online by fingers and hands and sitting behind a computer. In every other aspect it is pretty much the same as normal sports. It's not 'just playing games' when you get fucking payed for it.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Casimir on July 01, 2015, 03:52:15 pm
I class it the same as youtubers who make money playing minecraft for 10 year old kids, it confuses me more than anything.  I don't dislike the people who do it (I have a very limited knowledge of them) I just don't see the appeal of it myself, but then again I don't play any of the popular streaming / esports games so that might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2015, 03:56:02 pm
I class it the same as youtubers who make money playing minecraft for 10 year old kids, it confuses me more than anything.  I don't dislike the people who do it (I have a very limited knowledge of them) I just don't see the appeal of it myself, but then again I don't play any of the popular streaming / esports games so that might have something to do with it.

Surprisingly, neither do I. But world has evolved like this, there's an immense amount of interest in video games and it shows on youtube as well, obviously (and one of the charts in the article). However I don't class it the same as esports, I believe that people going for esports/professional gaming take far greater risks, and that it takes a lot more effort and talent. Needless to say that you also need some talent to be entertaining and attract a large crowd on youtube as well. None of this is to be looked over.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Oberyn on July 01, 2015, 04:21:45 pm
There's a difference between playing games because you enjoy them, and playing games to the point you can make a legitimate living off of it. There's no "self-glorifying" aspect that applies to gamers as a whole with the term e-sport, I think most people realize video games are largely nothing more than an escapist waste of time, although tbf a much more mentally active one than passive TV watching. Still, some person can make money off of their hobby? Good for them, they can call it virtual gladiatorial conquests of e-strength for all I give a shit.

Should be interesting going forward as video games become more and more realistic. I mean, if you could watch a bunch of 50 tall mechs battle each other and destroy an average sized city and it looks realistic and it carries the same competitive edge, personalities, tribal team feeling, all the little elements that play part in every "sport", wouldn't that be a lot more engaging and exciting than mere meatspace reality? It's a bit reductionist to say gaming is nothing more than muscle memory incidentally. The meta mind games alone are a huge part of gaming, without even bringing into it the obvious tactical and strategic planning most competitive games require.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2015, 04:26:09 pm
Im still surprised how gamers can be so hateful towards e-sports. Is it because it sounds silly earning money from playing competatively in video games? Because im sure before football and sports like that started earning people money, they were simply played for the joy of it.

In the end its us getting entertainment from things people put a ton of effort into, and them getting money out of it. As far as physical strain goes, i doubt its a walk in the park being a professional esports gamer, maybe it doesnt strain your body directly, but you will get exhausted having to constantly scrim and practice for what, 8 hours a day?
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2015, 05:04:09 pm
Might take ''skills'' to get at that level, but it sure as hell isn't a sport.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2015, 05:12:14 pm
Im still surprised how gamers can be so hateful towards e-sports.

In the same way people who like to play football with friends hate professional football, money laundering, criminals, corruption and everything that goes with it. There are many people who like many aspects of sport, but aren't into overly competitive and highly beneficial nature popularity brings to some sports. Making a sport your job is wrong imho and I equally dislike professional footballers and their way of earning for life just like I dislike these e-sport  pro-gamers.

Was a huge fan of chadz and cmp as modders too, they were great at it. Can't say the same for chadz/cmp as professional software developers. Innocence and goodwill is important for some people.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2015, 05:17:54 pm
In the same way people who like to play football with friends hate professional football, money laundering, criminals, corruption and everything that goes with it. There are many people who like many aspects of sport, but aren't into overly competitive and highly beneficial nature popularity brings to some sports. Making a sport your job is wrong imho and I equally dislike professional footballers and their way of earning for life just like I dislike these e-sport  pro-gamers.

Was a huge fan of chadz and cmp as modders too, they were great at it. Can't say the same for chadz/cmp as professional software developers. Innocence and goodwill is important for some people.

Why do you think its wrong to work with sports?

Might take ''skills'' to get at that level, but it sure as hell isn't a sport.

No, its an E-sport.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Falka on July 01, 2015, 05:38:51 pm
Babbling over nothing.
Quote
The World Mind Sports Games (WMSG) is a quadrennial multi-sport event created by the International Mind Sports Association (IMSA) as a "stepping stone on the path of introducing a third kind of Olympic Games (after the Summer and the Winter Olympics)".[1] The Games are considered to be very prestigious and are the equivalent of the Olympics for Bridge, Chess, Go, and Draughts.

Five mind sports participated in the first Games: bridge, chess, draughts (checkers), go (weiqi), and xiangqi (Chinese chess).

If there're mind sports, then there can be e-sports, but the name changes nothing, you can call it however you want, what's the difference.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Oberyn on July 01, 2015, 06:13:35 pm
They should def call it something else than e-sport tbh. I just like disagreeing with Heskey because I'm a professional contrarian, but there's something to the word sport "glorifying" professional gaming as something it is not. Not sure why the label e-sport should stick,  it's not a very accurate one, except for the e part. No one calls chess a "mind sport" in common parlance. Professional gaming sounds good enough to me. E-sport sounds like the brainchild of some marketing department team.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: jtobiasm on July 01, 2015, 11:42:34 pm
Forgot who posted it but people see E-Sports more than just a hobby, look at Ex pro players, they're now going into coaching or becoming analysts for a lot of money.
E-sports isn't just about sitting at a computer and playing, there's a lot now to do with sponsors and PR.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2015, 12:26:57 am
To me, e-sports is very similar to poker tournaments. Similar people are contestants, everything is run by some shady dudes like in poker world and people who watch one thing usually watch the other too.

Not saying physical sports are better, they became shady as fuck and pretty much only purpose for those competitions going on is money laundering through betting. But physical sport had noble roots, universities started the whole thing, even back to Ancient Greece. E-sports has been organized when it became largely popular by shady folks, universities and healthy institutions didn't help it grow. Maybe because there is no positive health effects from playing video games, and that was the main reason why universities embraced traditional sports, to improve health of their students.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: YnScN on July 02, 2015, 12:48:04 am
But physical sport had noble roots, universities started the whole thing, even back to Ancient Greece.

Dude they just didn't have computers so they thought running fast is a good idea to kill spare time.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: [ptx] on July 02, 2015, 01:27:55 am
Dude they just didn't have computers so they thought running fast is a good idea to kill spare time.
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Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 02, 2015, 03:59:06 am
Wow Esports, so impressive, such a display of physical skill and control.

Brb gonna go fuck my Egirlfriend, need tissues to clean the disk tray after

Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Kafein on July 03, 2015, 06:18:39 pm
They should def call it something else than e-sport tbh. I just like disagreeing with Heskey because I'm a professional contrarian, but there's something to the word sport "glorifying" professional gaming as something it is not. Not sure why the label e-sport should stick,  it's not a very accurate one, except for the e part. No one calls chess a "mind sport" in common parlance. Professional gaming sounds good enough to me. E-sport sounds like the brainchild of some marketing department team.

"Professional Gaming" is much too vague. It describes all sports, board games, video games etc. played professionally.

On the contrary, I think e-sports is a better term because it's accurate. If a layman reads that word for the first time chances are he won't try to make assumptions.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on June 10, 2016, 09:38:27 am
Slight necro, but relevant.

It seems that football clubs have started entering the e-sports scene 8-)

Quote
Manchester United Football Club and Fnatic have entered a bidding war, with both organizations looking to sign the same Overwatch team

Quote
Manchester United would not be the first major soccer brand to get involved in esports. German soccer team FC Schalke 04 recently signed the EU LCS roster formerly known as Elements, Valencia CF signed four Hearthstone players and West Ham United has signed a FIFA 16 player.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 10, 2016, 11:39:14 am
Slight necro, but relevant.

It seems that football clubs have started entering the e-sports scene 8-)

Thats pretty cool.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Angantyr on June 10, 2016, 01:32:21 pm

Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on June 10, 2016, 01:49:10 pm

Uh not sure I want to watch one hour of this when 3/4 of the comments are calling this reporter shit and that he has a condenscending attitude towards esports/gamers.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Oberyn on June 10, 2016, 02:14:00 pm
Vice has gone downhill really quickly. Any of the good stuff left is burried under a mountain of Gawker like clickbait.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Casul on June 10, 2016, 02:58:13 pm

puked after only 1 min, anyone can top this?
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Angantyr on June 10, 2016, 03:25:22 pm
I watched it as a freak show. The production and presentation is horrible, as are many of the people interviewed, the whole program reminded me that large sectors of gaming culture has transformed into something I don't like and don't want anything to do with, as celebrity culture in general. This it documents pretty well.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Admerius on June 10, 2016, 04:23:34 pm
Computer gaming has some physical aspects apart from muscle memory and other non-conscious imprinted reflex responses.

Personal anecdote of the positive traits I gained from gaming:
Right hand: Improved short distance movement precision, index and middle finger mouse click speed is faster(thumb only slightly affected since I was a poor 3-button mouse owner in my early years)
Left hand: Button clicking speed which is quicker but less precise than the right hand's mouse clicking speed.

These are physical traits(muscle and nerve efficiency in the hands), it is not exclusively brain-wiring that fires neural impulses in a conditioned manner, there are real physical traits that has been trained on top of that.

My opinion on the whole E-Sports thing has much more to do with linguistics:
The S in Sports should not be capitalized, it is not a "Sport" of the type "e", it is a "sport" within "E"

IMO:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Jona on June 10, 2016, 05:11:35 pm
Slight necro, but relevant.

It seems that football clubs have started entering the e-sports scene 8-)

How does Overwatch even have teams that good already such that multiple companies are bidding on them? I know it had beta tests in the past, but weren't those limited to a week each or so? These nerds have only been playing the game for like a month in total and already they're poised to make bank. Meanwhile I'm just sitting here at my normal job doing un-fun work things and making a small fraction of what they'll end up with...   :(
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leshma on June 10, 2016, 05:32:36 pm
Slight necro, but relevant.

It seems that football clubs have started entering the e-sports scene 8-)

Not just that. Last year, young Arsenal star Hector Bellerin was taking part in some TV tournament on UK television. They played BlOps3. Club endorsed his participation, despite it being midweek two days before CL games. Arsenal has strongest Internet presence of all football clubs and you can take that as trend that is going to emerge very soon. These recent actions of football clubs are just confirming that.

Not that I personally give rats ass about e-sports but it is obviously going places.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Overdriven on June 10, 2016, 05:49:09 pm
Yeah they periodically get the Chelsea players playing Fifa, COD ect to promote them as well. They do it with a lot of footballers now.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: IR_Kuoin on June 10, 2016, 05:51:07 pm
How does Overwatch even have teams that good already such that multiple companies are bidding on them? I know it had beta tests in the past, but weren't those limited to a week each or so? These nerds have only been playing the game for like a month in total and already they're poised to make bank. Meanwhile I'm just sitting here at my normal job doing un-fun work things and making a small fraction of what they'll end up with...   :(

Actually a lot of TF2 pro players already got sponsored for Overwatch while it was still in beta, both games are pretty much equal in terms of the skill you need in both, so old TF2 teams are pretty much set, which is nice as the scene was dying rapidly, mainly due to Valve not caring about their scene.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on June 10, 2016, 05:52:36 pm
Computer gaming has some physical aspects apart from muscle memory and other non-conscious imprinted reflex responses.

Personal anecdote of the positive traits I gained from gaming:
Right hand: Improved short distance movement precision, index and middle finger mouse click speed is faster(thumb only slightly affected since I was a poor 3-button mouse owner in my early years)
Left hand: Button clicking speed which is quicker but less precise than the right hand's mouse clicking speed.

These are physical traits(muscle and nerve efficiency in the hands), it is not exclusively brain-wiring that fires neural impulses in a conditioned manner, there are real physical traits that has been trained on top of that.

My opinion on the whole E-Sports thing has much more to do with linguistics:
The S in Sports should not be capitalized, it is not a "Sport" of the type "e", it is a "sport" within "E"

IMO:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Well said and I think it is important to identify it like that because people get immediately upset when they hear (part of) the word 'sport' when it comes to gaming.

How does Overwatch even have teams that good already such that multiple companies are bidding on them? I know it had beta tests in the past, but weren't those limited to a week each or so? These nerds have only been playing the game for like a month in total and already they're poised to make bank. Meanwhile I'm just sitting here at my normal job doing un-fun work things and making a small fraction of what they'll end up with...   :(

Closed beta has been running for at least half a year without interruptions before a short pause before open beta. Yeah there have been a few weekend only events as well but some people have had uninterrupted access to the game for quite some time now.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Leshma on June 10, 2016, 05:53:28 pm
There are rumours saying that Valve is working on ranked play overhaul for TF2. Should bring game to life when done, especially because it is completely free unlike Overwatch.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Vibe on June 10, 2016, 05:58:19 pm
There are rumours saying that Valve is working on ranked play overhaul for TF2. Should bring game to life when done, especially because it is completely free unlike Overwatch.

There's no way TF2 competitive is going big if you ask me, not with Overwatch being out now. It's a little too late.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Kafein on June 10, 2016, 06:26:57 pm
Or maybe video games have made me better at shit IRL?

Individual marketable skills gained from Strategus:
- Spamming a group PM on crpg.net with goals and instructions Working with a team
- Making sure dots move across the map when and where we want them Micromanagement and coordination of a team
- Shittalking Bruttus until he quits the mod Effective communication at all levels
- Buying the most expensive armours for sexy looking Dwarven RP Data analysis, confident user of Microsoft Excel
- Convincing forum-users that we're the good guys so that we get a roster PR Experience
- Making sure faction-members don't quit when we get spawn raped Assures high team morale to ensure the continuing effectiveness of the team
- Telling someone else to sort out the trade cos i don't like it Delegation of tasks
- Being 'Kesh' in TeamSpeak and performing pre-battle prayers Leadership

I like to pretend my brain has benefited in some small way from years of attempting to strategize and coordinate shit.

You'd be surprised at how accurate that is. Most skills required for corporate work are called "soft skills" for a reason.
Title: Re: Esports is massive... and growing
Post by: Jona on June 10, 2016, 06:54:22 pm
Closed beta has been running for at least half a year without interruptions before a short pause before open beta. Yeah there have been a few weekend only events as well but some people have had uninterrupted access to the game for quite some time now.


Ah, I didn't realize that they had a beta running almost constantly for several months now. I just thought they had one or two closed betas that lasted maybe a weekend or full week, and then the most recent open beta just a little while ago. Makes more sense that there are highly skilled teams now... even if they were good at tf2 before most of the skill required to be good in this game is just game knowledge and strategy which takes a some playing time for any level of gamer.