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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 20, 2015, 08:42:13 am

Title: creative AI
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 20, 2015, 08:42:13 am
I just read this interesting article: http://qz.com/432678/the-dreams-of-googles-ai-are-equal-parts-amazing-and-disturbing/

I describes experiments google did with it's image recognition software. When the network, which is trained to recognize images such as animals, is shown a normal landscape picture and asked to produce an image of it something like this happens:

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more cool pictures:

(click to show/hide)

whole gallery: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPX0SCl7OzWilt9LnuQliattX4OUCj_8EP65_cTVnBmS1jnYgsGQAieQUc1VQWdgQ?key=aVBxWjhwSzg2RjJWLWRuVFBBZEN1d205bUdEMnhB

pretty beautiful weird stuff... and a bit scary too.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2015, 02:06:44 am
Following Notch makes you look autistic :D


And yeah, machines love dem animals and buildings.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 02:20:08 am
AI is developing way too quickly. In 20 years, it's going to be a massive problem, Stephen Hawking is right on that.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 21, 2015, 02:21:59 am
AI is developing way too quickly. In 20 years, it's going to be a massive problem, Stephen Hawking is right on that.
Stephen Hawking isn't an AI specialist.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: AntiBlitz on June 21, 2015, 05:54:34 am
watched Chappie today, almost cried.

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speaking of AI, dat TARS, love em.

Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2015, 01:42:01 pm
How could AI be a problem to begin with? What some people are really afraid of is the undeniable proof that humans are nothing more than biological constructs.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Kalam on June 21, 2015, 05:09:04 pm
How could AI be a problem to begin with? What some people are really afraid of is the undeniable proof that humans are nothing more than biological constructs.

Assuming a framework based on human minds, the issue is hardware.

Human brain design is not efficient, much like human ankle design. Based on that, an AI could be created that's more efficient, which suggests that the issue is software design rather hardware constraints.

If you have a human-level AI that can rewrite it's own code, it would be able to constantly improve itself. Since it may not have as many inefficiencies as regular human minds, it would be able to change itself fairly (it takes humans years to change their habits- an AI could do this in a second) quickly. Once it does this, it doesn't just become a particularly smart human- it's more like the difference between a dog and a human. Is a human going to listen to a dog, or do everything that a dog wants?

So you get an AI like this and you think 'O, let's just keep it isolated with no access to the outside world'. Think about how a human being is able to get lesser intelligences to do what it wants. Now, imagine something a degree smarter and how it might be able to persuade the humans it comes in contact with to give it external access or keep it running. What if it figures out that one of the researchers in the lab has a daughter that's dying of neuroblastoma, and offers a cure, if only it had access to more data? That doesn't even take advanced persuasive techniques into account. Stuff we haven't even mapped out yet.

That's one possibility. There's also the idea of a paperclip maximizer. Say you build an AI with the goal of making as many paperclips as possible (you could replace with 'farming as much nutrient dense food', or whatever) and find that AI constantly finds new ways to turn matter into paperclips. Where will it stop? Will it continue converting the entire solar system into paperclips?

The current expert estimates are between 20 and 250 years, where 20 is improbable.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 05:15:40 pm
Stephen Hawking isn't an AI specialist.

One doesn't need to be an AI specialist to guess that it might become a problem in the future.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Angantyr on June 21, 2015, 05:21:11 pm
Some thoughts on the technological singularity. Noam Chomsky has been in middle of the IT revolution through his life at MIT and is a scholar of the philosophy of mind and the cognitive sciences.

Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 21, 2015, 06:18:49 pm
One doesn't need to be an AI specialist to guess that it might become a problem in the future.
No indeed, since the statement applies to literally everything. I was referring to the time frame but maybe that was added by you.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 06:38:16 pm
When reflecting about it, 20 years is a bit improbable, yes. But 50 years seem to be quite realistic when you know the rate of development we have got now.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Angantyr on June 21, 2015, 07:04:47 pm
To create the technological singularity, ie. 'strong AI', science would first have to understand metaphysical terms such as 'mind' and 'thought', and we are a long, long way from that.

Human understanding has a certain scope, and therefore also certain limitations, a conclusion already established after mechanical philosophy gave way to the early natural sciences (Galileo, Descartes, Bacon, Newton), and repeatedly demonstrated throughout history.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 21, 2015, 07:29:44 pm
When reflecting about it, 20 years is a bit improbable, yes. But 50 years seem to be quite realistic when you know the rate of development we have got now.
What are you talking about? What development? We are not closer to true AI than we were 50 years ago. It's not a matter of just building more powerful computers.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2015, 07:33:16 pm
When reflecting about it, 20 years is a bit improbable, yes. But 50 years seem to be quite realistic when you know the rate of development we have got now.

Right.

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 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: [ptx] on June 21, 2015, 08:00:51 pm
Some people here have been reading/watching too much sci-fi. AI like that simply is not happening in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2015, 08:29:11 pm
Assuming a framework based on human minds, the issue is hardware.

Human brain design is not efficient, much like human ankle design. Based on that, an AI could be created that's more efficient, which suggests that the issue is software design rather hardware constraints.

If you have a human-level AI that can rewrite it's own code, it would be able to constantly improve itself. Since it may not have as many inefficiencies as regular human minds, it would be able to change itself fairly (it takes humans years to change their habits- an AI could do this in a second) quickly. Once it does this, it doesn't just become a particularly smart human- it's more like the difference between a dog and a human. Is a human going to listen to a dog, or do everything that a dog wants?

So you get an AI like this and you think 'O, let's just keep it isolated with no access to the outside world'. Think about how a human being is able to get lesser intelligences to do what it wants. Now, imagine something a degree smarter and how it might be able to persuade the humans it comes in contact with to give it external access or keep it running. What if it figures out that one of the researchers in the lab has a daughter that's dying of neuroblastoma, and offers a cure, if only it had access to more data? That doesn't even take advanced persuasive techniques into account. Stuff we haven't even mapped out yet.

That's one possibility. There's also the idea of a paperclip maximizer. Say you build an AI with the goal of making as many paperclips as possible (you could replace with 'farming as much nutrient dense food', or whatever) and find that AI constantly finds new ways to turn matter into paperclips. Where will it stop? Will it continue converting the entire solar system into paperclips?

The current expert estimates are between 20 and 250 years, where 20 is improbable.

Intelligence doesn't inherently require free will the way we understand "free will", which is already a flawed concept.


The paperclip problem is a real one but it essentially always has been. The first models of assisted driving in cars had no force feedback and the sensitivity wasn't adaptive, so essentially you could drive really fast and instantly turn your front wheels completely with only a tap on the wheel. That turned out to put too much pressure on the human. We already use drones in warfare which highlights the real problem of machines giving previously unattainable power to individual humans still using their tribal brains.

To create the technological singularity, ie. 'strong AI', science would first have to understand metaphysical terms such as 'mind' and 'thought', and we are a long, long way from that.

It's called the Turing test and we already have it. We are sure that humans have a "mind" and "thoughts" therefore if something behaves like a human then it must also have these things.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Prinz_Karl on June 21, 2015, 08:38:41 pm
Some people here have been reading/watching too much sci-fi. AI like that simply is not happening in the foreseeable future.

I agree. Especially AI that becomes self-controlling, even say self-productive and that will undermine human species will not happen if not someone really aims to construct such AI he can't controll himself.

What I mean is that human also didn't pop up self-thinking and independent, it was nature that formed our human brain and so it would need human (indirectly nature) to form self-thinking and independent AI. Only difference is that nature doesn't care if it's building something that's self-destructive.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 08:48:27 pm
Some people here have been reading/watching too much sci-fi. AI like that simply is not happening in the foreseeable future.
What are you talking about? What development? We are not closer to true AI than we were 50 years ago. It's not a matter of just building more powerful computers.

It's not going to happen soon, afaik. But it will happen eventually. The "weak" AI era we're into is just the beginning, with machines executing simple tasks with algorithms more or less complex. I'm not an AI expert, so I can't tell how to build a better AI, but some will know in the future, doesn't matter if it's 50 years or 250 years after today.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2015, 08:53:10 pm
The way I can even imagine having a sentient AI is.. well we would need to have a total understanding of the human brain and ALL of its functions, then copy and put those in a supercomputer.

Not gonna' happen for quite a long time.

Yeah totally not scientifically accurate and sci-fi explanation from me, whatever.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 21, 2015, 09:23:42 pm
It's not going to happen soon, afaik. But it will happen eventually. The "weak" AI era we're into is just the beginning, with machines executing simple tasks with algorithms more or less complex. I'm not an AI expert, so I can't tell how to build a better AI, but some will know in the future, doesn't matter if it's 50 years or 250 years after today.
How do you know that if you're not an AI expert?
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 10:10:53 pm
How do you know that if you're not an AI expert?

How can't one know that the current machines run on "basic" algorithms that make them look like they have a form of intelligence, and will be developed further, like everything nowadays ?  Being aware of that doesn't require much.

Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: [ptx] on June 21, 2015, 10:16:28 pm
...

Do you understand what algorithms are? How they work? How software is built and functions?
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 21, 2015, 11:05:17 pm
...

Do you understand what algorithms are? How they work? How software is built and functions?

Yes, a bit. I guess I didn't express myself well. An algorithm is a suit of commands, in some cases, these suits are complex, while on a simple calculator, they are much simplier. Even if I wasn't good at maths, I know a bit on them.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 22, 2015, 04:55:01 am
How can't one know that the current machines run on "basic" algorithms that make them look like they have a form of intelligence, and will be developed further, like everything nowadays ?  Being aware of that doesn't require much.
That has nothing to do with AI.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 22, 2015, 08:38:39 am
I too think that something fundamental is missing to create real AI.

This leaked email or what though from dear Elon is interesting. From what I understood of the small text he claims that the progress of improving/learning of network AIs from companies like DeepMind is close to exponential and thus he's expecting some crucial point in the near future where 'something dangerous' could happen. But unless he explaines more in detail what he is exactly referring to I doesn't mean much for me. And I'm not sure if his worries are based on some knowledge we don't have or simply a bad feel in the gut. I mean, it makes only sense to expect the worst when actually working on AI rather than just taking for granted all will go well. Even if there are no concrete signs right now that, when or how things could get out of control.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Beauchamp on June 22, 2015, 03:36:05 pm
in 70 years of constant development we got a software that can distinguish dog's poop from tortoise and in the next 20 we can expect that some computer will be aware of itself? :D :D :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Angantyr on June 22, 2015, 03:53:18 pm
It's called the Turing test and we already have it. We are sure that humans have a "mind" and "thoughts" therefore if something behaves like a human then it must also have these things.
The Turing test has nothing to do with understanding these concepts, or recreating them. Which is what I was referring to. We don't even understand the relation or the boundaries between the physical and the non-physical, 'the mind-body problem', let alone complicated notions such as process of thought.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Algarn on June 23, 2015, 01:06:41 am
That has nothing to do with AI.

But what is artificial intelligence then ? How would you describe it ? I describe it as a form of intelligence created by humans, and now, we can only create"AIs" which are barely as smart as mouses. Need a quote there, but it's approximately what we can do now, a really basic AI with limited "choices", while a real intelligence could not have these limitations, because it could reflect on itself and its environment, and therefore create "choices'' by itself.

Fuck english and french education on foreign languages on a side note.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Golem on June 23, 2015, 02:01:08 am
Now, this is going into the deep(and shady) a little bit, but bear with me.
Imagine you were created, just now. All you are aware of is your being, your existence. The only thing you can do with this knowledge is to reflect on it. By reflecting on existence, you create the opposite within yourself. Non-existence, nothingness, space. Whatever you want to call it. Soon you realise that you are being engulfed by it. So you try to fill in the blank with something. Suddenly - life. An idea that was to save you but turns out to be just an illusion. Even though you supply it with heat, gamma rays and what not and it seems to prosper and fill in all the inked spots, the very nature of it is abyss-forming, for it is conscious - and creates blank space within itself. You made this from your image and just like you it succumbed to error.
What happens when life starts makin the universe to fit its image? Without your intervenience - a catastrophe!
But if you put your 'hands' in it, and lets assume that you did, life would start to create unconscious beings. Beings uncapable of creating blankness. An ongoing code without stop or loss of tempo. And once it has connected every planet every star and every galaxy you would hatch. Your eyes would be open or else manufactured at the borders of universe to predict and interact with other universes. Now get on EU1. A whole network of sentient mechanisms, trying to control each others development. Zoomout and you can see the whole sharade. Flickering lights dancing on the top of a bottomles mountain, with a quick explosion every now and then. Bang!


tl;dr the development of AI is controlled by the universe at large as is to an extent our own behaviour and strive
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Xant on June 23, 2015, 04:49:36 am
But what is artificial intelligence then ? How would you describe it ? I describe it as a form of intelligence created by humans, and now, we can only create"AIs" which are barely as smart as mouses. Need a quote there, but it's approximately what we can do now, a really basic AI with limited "choices", while a real intelligence could not have these limitations, because it could reflect on itself and its environment, and therefore create "choices'' by itself.

Fuck english and french education on foreign languages on a side note.
https://intelligence.org/2013/08/11/what-is-agi/
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 24, 2015, 09:25:39 pm
Lol. Ai Isn't going to takeover the world  :rolleyes:

Also, I'm assuming in 50 years we MIGHT have flying cars and hovercraft as a normal convenience. But robots like in star wars? lol.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 25, 2015, 04:30:20 am
Robots like Star Wars would be easy, we just havent mass produced annoying bleeping Mars Rovers yet. Or given clunky bad-at-walking robots annoying or snarky voices yet. It's not exactly impossible with current technology to have something respond to you with a snarky voice, ever seen one of those voice command phone thingies that acknowledge you in a sexy female voice? We just need to replace the voice with something that sucks and we're at Star Wars.

I guess the thing with hovercraft is that we have had the technology for ages but wheels are just easier, more efficient and break less. Flying cars dont seem to make much sense, imagine how you'd need to do roads and traffic lights in a city, or air control, not worth the effort. To perfect or refine a technology, there needs to be a demand for it. What seemed like super advanced sci fi in the 70s/80s is largely possible now, we've either already got it or there wasnt any demand for it.

Ummm... Not exactly what I meant...

Its easy to create cool sounding machines that are like a parrot. They just say the same thing over and over like they're a broken program. Thats what most AI today are. Being able to create good "droids" like we see in movies is impossible. They will never be able to process and respond to so much stimuli like a human can.

The human brain is like 1000 supercomputers running at once, and no technology we ever make will match its problem solving, intelligence, or ability to interact and respond to changing situations.
Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 25, 2015, 08:15:38 am
Still that is what groups like DeepMind are trying to achieve. So far they only got an AI to learn playing 70's atari games sort of by learning from randomly bashing keys. Not exactly what you initially have in mind when thinking of a super AI, but they got the approach right. Never say never.





edit: actually this video is much better than the two above, so watch this first. Pretty interesting guy and who would have guessed he programmed theme park? :)

Title: Re: creative AI
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 25, 2015, 04:46:46 pm
Ok, after researching this a little and watching those videos, I think you guys have my beat, Heskey and Bloody_Nine.

I now see that Ai is actually developing very quickly in ways that can respond and adapt to different enviornments. Tis a crazy age  :shock: