cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 02:51:34 pm

Title: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 02:51:34 pm
My mighty 30/15 archery alt stood atop a tower and loosed my arrows down the defiant (Lor-?)Cassi in her full plat armour(76 body armour, 76 head armour, hp amount unknown).

The angle was roughyl 45 degrees and the distance abou 20-25 meter, my arrows lammed in to that full plate(10pd, 139 wpf, Longbow+3, Bodkins +3, Lightarmoured(less than 10 armour weight) )

My hits did roughly 5% according to Cassi.

Now this isn't a complaint about damage, the damage is a bit low but manageable, the fact that she could run me down on top of this... that's the problem.

Edit1: Stationary target(no speedbonus)

Edit2:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: Grumbs on November 24, 2014, 03:18:36 pm
Would be better if you presented real numbers with some tests. I don't take 5% damage from anything with 10 IF and my plate
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 24, 2014, 03:20:59 pm
That build will do more damage than a regular +3 crossbow with +3 steel bolts for medium-long distances, I don't see any way it could do ~5% damage at medium range, even if you're hitting them in the hands.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 03:57:01 pm
Ok, I'll track down some tincan to perform a proper empirical study, instead of going by Cassi's self-reporting though chat function ingame.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: Casul on November 24, 2014, 04:15:45 pm
THATS ME OMG!

(click to show/hide)

We can try it out again if you want, just send me a PM on the cRPG site.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: karasu on November 24, 2014, 04:56:19 pm
Let me guess, stationary target too?
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour
Post by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 04:58:44 pm
Let me guess, stationary target too?

I knew I had forgot to mention something, and that's it! 0% speedbonus.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Casul on November 24, 2014, 05:50:45 pm
well 0 athletics and heaviest 2h gear -> stationary
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Bronto on November 24, 2014, 06:00:46 pm
Archery truly has been nerfed into the ground. It's sad and I feel bad for all the archers out there that loomed all of their gear to just be relentlessly nerfed almost every single patch. The kiting nerf, I could understand. Changing of all the bows statistics, I thought, was going full retard. Then this patch came out and I now understand what going full retard truly means. You do no damage and get no fucking arrows to do damage with. I shot Tagora the other day with a longbow and bodkins and the only time I did any significant damage was if I got a headshot. Even then it would take 3 arrows to bring him down. Don't even bother shooting horses or anyone with a str build. Hell anyone with an agi build. Basically just don't shoot anyone with any build. Build. Fuck archery nerfs. You guys can't seriously be that stupid to think that dropping the amount of arrows and further nerfing archery damage was a good idea, can you? Well it happened so I guess the answer is yes. Yes you can be that stupid. You want to go ranged be a thrower or xbow noob. RIP Archery.

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Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: San on November 24, 2014, 06:28:52 pm
I wanted archery to be as good relatively as it was before. The blanket change after the patch came out proved to be a little too strong (something had to be done though since archery gets  +14% damage per PD compared to +8%), and it was unexpected that the average armor would increase so much. I'm more convinced of increasing body shot damage/decrease limb damage vs bow damage (final damage increase vs. raw damage increase).

It should be easier than ever to land a shot, though. I suppose in practice, increasing accuracy didn't really help landing those headshots after all for most people?

The opposite would be people QQing when archery was already pretty weak (cue months of complaining along with threads like these when archery imo was already not so great: http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/add-a-fucking-ranged-cap-already/ )

As far as doing damage to the best armor values in the game and 110+ hp? It's just not a smart target for anyone without 33+p/b weapons and speed bonus.

Quote
There is now way the second bow in (nomad bow) should arguably be one of the strongest bows in the game. That is completely moronic. Comparable to making the wooden stick, axe, or pitchfork in other classes the second best weapon for that class or the sumpter horse just slighty worse than the courser. Please. I had a major issue when the decision was made to remove longbow's pierce only damage WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE, to then the respec of all bows and arrows. I mean come on. There is a point where something is ok, then there is a point when you've just gone too far.  I don't want to do this but I will. Below is how the stats of the bows should be in my humble opinion, not how they are now. Again how they are now is fucking stupid and it's the reason why there are so many people shooting you in melee. You can max an archery build with a nomad bow and have laser guided missiles that shoot faster, more accurately, and more rapidly than anything on the battlefield. On top of that, use some bodkins and now that machine gun does pierce damage. GG everyone.

An archer.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Algarn on November 24, 2014, 06:44:56 pm
Archery truly has been nerfed into the ground. It's sad and I feel bad for all the archers out there that loomed all of their gear to just be relentlessly nerfed almost every single patch. The kiting nerf, I could understand. Changing of all the bows statistics, I thought, was going full retard. Then this patch came out and I now understand what going full retard truly means. You do no damage and get no fucking arrows to do damage with. I shot Tagora the other day with a longbow and bodkins and the only time I did any significant damage was if I got a headshot. Even then it would take 3 arrows to bring him down. Don't even bother shooting horses or anyone with a str build. Hell anyone with an agi build. Basically just don't shoot anyone with any build. Build. Fuck archery nerfs. You guys can't seriously be that stupid to think that dropping the amount of arrows and further nerfing archery damage was a good idea, can you? Well it happened so I guess the answer is yes. Yes you can be that stupid. You want to go ranged be a thrower or xbow noob. RIP Archery.

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Basically, people saw me doing good with pin point accuracy+support, so, no buff needed in their opinion. People actually think shooting and killing low armored people and wounded people proves this shit to be OP, but when Lars, a good player, tried out archery, he felt kinda fucked : even with pin point accuracy, and 9PD (longbow/bodkins of course), he wasn't able to hit and damage someone, nor to handle a fight in melee.

Just a reminder, I'm a level 37 archer, I almost only played as archer and crossbowman, for a long time. Any player that played his class for a long time, with high level + looms + support MUST be good, or he's definitely not made for this game.

Too short, but still couldn't read : QQ.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Admerius on November 24, 2014, 07:09:59 pm
Update:
Tested on EU3:

All point blank:
Feet shots: 10=dead
Body shots: 10=dead
Head: 4=Dead
When running away=14-16, lost count of misses :(

It wasn't so bad, I must have used other arrows thenmy  deafult gear yesterday, maybe my rusbow or tatar arrows.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Bronto on November 24, 2014, 07:17:54 pm
I wanted archery to be as good relatively as it was before.

Then why did you (as a whole item balance team) decide to provide less ammo? Why does archery do next to no damage unless you're shooting heads? Increasing the accuracy rating on the bows TYDEUS YOU FUCKWIT; you did like 3 gens of archer at this point and thought you were pro doesn't really matter much now does it? I've done gens upon gens of archery and the only thing that needed to be adjusted was the tears of the melee I'd shoot down in all their glorious rage QQ my old friendLORDS the ability to kite and HA prolonging rounds. No bow stats needed to be restructured and the arrows certainly didn't need fucked with again, especially after the almost complete negation of benefits when you heirloom them that has occurred. Do you have any idea how infuriating that is to someone who spends generations to MW an item and now it's total shit. Do it to the longsword (or any loom people use) and let's see what happens shall we?  Any how, none of this matters, as none of it will get reverted. Someone just needs to hit a giant reset button and take this back to 2010, when the mod was fun. Who cares how balanced it was, the bottom line is, IT WAS FUN.

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Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Radament on November 24, 2014, 08:54:47 pm
Who cares how balanced it was, the bottom line is, IT WAS FUN.

maybe it was fun because without upkeep all were happier , archers with medium armor were shooting and kiting tincans with flamberge.
Chivalry is a shit game but archery class is really balanced and played almost that the few times i played.

http://chivalry.wikia.com/wiki/Archer (http://chivalry.wikia.com/wiki/Archer)
here's the description of the ranged class in general and here's a video about it.

now , yes i know , Chivalry sux balls and it's a spamfest but looking only at the ranged class i must admit i prefer their point of view than the warband/crpg one.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Algarn on November 24, 2014, 09:06:49 pm
maybe it was fun because without upkeep all were happier , archers with medium armor were shooting and kiting tincans with flamberge.
Chivalry is a shit game but archery class is really balanced and played almost that the few times i played.

http://chivalry.wikia.com/wiki/Archer (http://chivalry.wikia.com/wiki/Archer)
here's the description of the ranged class in general and here's a video about it.

now , yes i know , Chivalry sux balls and it's a spamfest but looking only at the ranged class i must admit i prefer their point of view than the warband/crpg one.

Jesus, the ocean of tears this game would be if archery was like that for 1 day only.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Grumbs on November 24, 2014, 09:28:54 pm
Well comparing ranged in chivalry to ranged in cRPG is kind of pointless. The main difference I would say is how fast you spawn and how arcadey the game is. Melee can sprint, drawing the bow takes longer and you move slower when you're drawing. That jump shot + damage is obscene though
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: San on November 24, 2014, 10:56:21 pm
Then why did you (as a whole item balance team) decide to provide less ammo?

I made a thread about making HA only arrows and 2 slot ammo with more total ammo so we wouldn't have to balance for 1 stack of arrows and 3 stacks of arrows at the same time. It eventually transformed into something different. The individual archer has mediocre kill power, but people tend to have problems with the amount of archers. My goal was to minimize having archers with 50+ arrows and reward concise shots vs. spamming. Most things in balance forums are compromises vs. having it exactly your way. This was when 15-30 and 18-27 were the go-to archer builds and they would take 2-3 stacks and kite. The idea was that agi archers may run out of ammo quickly, but they can move around the battlefield the quickest while retrieving more, while strength archers were supposed to be unlikely to run out anways while dealing good damage, but they couldn't kite at all and needed to be protected.

The thread was also made before the patch revival stuff was brought on us, where we had to change certain classes. It became a mix of a thread made for those standards (where I thought adjusting ammo would help vs just reducing damage) plus blanket changes to adjust for the patch revival level increases. Weapon speeds were going to be reduced by 1, too, but we were going to see how things turned out with the greater wpf penalty on agi builds.

Quote
Why does archery do next to no damage unless you're shooting heads?

You're dealing more damage than you think. 18-25 damage for most shots, but the average HP increased from 60 to 70 or so. That turns killing in 3 shots to 4. This is why keeping the power the same resulted in less relative power compared to before. You're definitely not dealing next to no damage, though, just closer to a 1h swing. Headshots are ~2.3x final damage. If you only would've dealt 25 damage otherwise, that's only 60ish damage, not enough to 1shot with the higher average HP.

Quote
Increasing the accuracy rating on the bows TYDEUS YOU FUCKWIT; you did like 3 gens of archer at this point and thought you were pro doesn't really matter much now does it? I've done gens upon gens of archery and the only thing that needed to be adjusted was the tears of the melee I'd shoot down in all their glorious rage QQ my old friendLORDS the ability to kite and HA prolonging rounds. No bow stats needed to be restructured and the arrows certainly didn't need fucked with again, especially after the almost complete negation of benefits when you heirloom them that has occurred. Do you have any idea how infuriating that is to someone who spends generations to MW an item and now it's total shit. Do it to the longsword (or any loom people use) and let's see what happens shall we?  Any how, none of this matters, as none of it will get reverted. Someone just needs to hit a giant reset button and take this back to 2010, when the mod was fun. Who cares how balanced it was, the bottom line is, IT WAS FUN.
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Not sure what to make of this, but the longsword class weapons were nerfed, and Tydeus made the thread for that. I'm only from 2011, but I remember hating a ton of the mechanics, especially stun/stagger, knockdown, and glancing on good swings, but enjoyed the core game back then. Half the rounds were waiting in shield walls where your team slowly lost or behind hills, and a shot to your leg did almost all your health. It probably is going to be less fun for some since it demands more from the player than before, raising the skill floor a bit. I think adjusting limb damage (increasing body shot/head damage, decreasing limb damage) and buffing a few of the weakest bows by 1 dmg or so would help keep the raw vs. expected damage in check. I think that would make the best use of the increased accuracy. Low raw damage ends up being poor against everything (current Nomad Bow) and high raw damage would end up 2-shotting plate (what Longbow would've been if the damage wasn't reduced), but adjusting the final damage would be more manageable. It wasn't an option before because we believed changing those values didn't do anything (it may still be like that on official servers, but it worked fine when I created a test server, so I hope it works).

More dumb things killed you back then, so it was acceptable to be killed by other dumb things. Now, you need to hold to crush through, you can't get stagger locked by polearms/ranged, you can recover from knockdowns (though in a lulzy way), and you can nudge kicks, so those are many instant loss situations that can be prevented. The only decision I didn't like at all from the devs was probably the turn rate limit which only needed to be active during a jump. I also wish they could've done something more creative with lance angles, but that was far after they were doing large WSE changes.

The guy in Chivalry only has 20 ammo, and I'm not sure how rounds/mechanics work there with ammo retrieval. 20-26 seems to be the lowest for the average archer with ammo retrieval available for use. Seemed to have pinpoint accuracy, maneuverability, and kill in 1 or 2 shots. Is that what archers want in cRPG? (even less ammo, possibly remove ammo retrieval, but massively increase damage?)
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Grumbs on November 24, 2014, 11:12:55 pm

The guy in Chivalry only has 20 ammo, and I'm not sure how rounds/mechanics work there with ammo retrieval. 20-26 seems to be the lowest for the average archer with ammo retrieval available for use. Seemed to have pinpoint accuracy, maneuverability, and kill in 1 or 2 shots. Is that what archers want in cRPG? (even less ammo, possibly remove ammo retrieval, but massively increase damage?)

Definately not, unless you massively increase the skill involved in landing a shot. Shit is easy compared to getting past someone's block in melee
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Leshma on November 25, 2014, 12:10:47 am
Obvious issue are agi builds and high armor. That combination is both deadly and fast. Buff str builds but reduce overall armor rating by percentage so that low armor is less nerfed that heavy armor and medium armor.

Oh yeah, another thing. Don't forget to nerf throwing. It's silly strong compared to other ranged classes, actually compared to everything else.

Edit: Not all throwing. Just throwing lances (back to one ammo yo) and those low grade throwing weapons like knives and ninja stuff.
Title: Re: 10pd lb+3 bodkins+3 vs 76 body armour(stationary archer and target)
Post by: Bronto on November 25, 2014, 01:02:05 am
San,

The only reason the 15/30 and 18/27 archers became viable is because Tydeus adjusted the bow stats to make the lower bows actually useful. Tampering with a mechanic that didn't need to be adjusted. Then it all went downhill from there. It wasn't even the kiting that made those builds bad, it was the fact you could use a nomad bow with pin point accuracy, shoot faster than everyone, and then run like hell. The lower tier bows should be that. Lower. Tier. Bows. By adjusting the stats initially it basically borked archery as a whole and created a new meta. You know what it didn't fix? All the tears and cries for nerfs. Now archery is a joke. It's a terrible joke when you lose members of an already shrinking community and refuse to undo what has been done just to please a few but ruin it for an entire class. I also didn't mean for you to take the longsword thing seriously, I was being sarcastic to illustrate what many archers feel/felt like. Like I said we can talk and talk but words are just that. Words. I hope whatever you did on your test server sees the light of day and I'll give it another go but for now there are basically xbows and throwers. Some archery players here and there but the ones I've seen recently have been newer players.

Bronto