cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Algarn on November 12, 2014, 05:18:57 pm

Title: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Algarn on November 12, 2014, 05:18:57 pm
I've been asking myself if people wouldn't prefer another archery. Basically, the one we got is pin point accuracy with any kind of armor (Played with a kuyak last days, was lulzy to have pin point accuracy), with high power draw builds, which means a trajectory for the arrow which is almost straight, but no damage except for the headshots.

Another archery system is possible, by keeping the "accuracy" value the same, but increasing a lot the damages, which will change the current meta based on pin point accuracy, and replace it by a more randomized system. (headshots will be lucky, lets say it like it would be), but the normal shots (body, leg, arms), will have slighly less frequency as before, but will happen in 90% of cases. Basically, a headshot would be a instant kill, but it won't happen much.

The ranged meta atm is :

Throwing got low damage, poor accuracy compared to archery, and shit range, but still, high speed rating (you can throw your spears/axes quickly).
Archery got low damage (still, you do as much as throwers with high PD), better accuracy, better range, medium speed rating.
Crossbows got high damage, high accuracy, high range, low (really bad) speed rating.


The changes needed in my humble opinion are

Throwing got high damage, poor accuracy (depending on the build), low range, high speed rating
Archery got medium damage, medium accuracy, medium range, medium speed rating, medium ammo size.
Crossbows got high damage, high accuracy, high range, really  bad speed rating medium ammo size.

I don't know what changes would be needed for throwing to make it happen, but buffing damages would be enough to lower accuracy. I know what changes are needed, and here are the proposed stats of bows.



Short Bow
missile speed: 42 
weight: 2
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 1
speed rating: 62
missile speed: 42
thrust damage: 27 cut    (Current : 20 cut)
slots: 1
871


Nomad Bow
missile speed: 45            (Current : 48)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102
difficulty: 2
speed rating: 68
missile speed: 45
thrust damage: 25 cut      (Current : 18)
slots: 1
1,356


Tatar Bow
missile speed: 44       (Current : 46)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102
difficulty: 3
speed rating: 65
missile speed: 44
thrust damage: 26 cut      (Current :19)
slots: 1
3,787


Bow
missile speed: 42   
weight: 3.5
accuracy: 101
difficulty: 4
speed rating: 58
missile speed: 42
thrust damage: 30 cut     (Current : 25)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
5,188


Horn Bow
missile speed: 43          (Current : 44)
weight: 2.7
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 5
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 43
thrust damage: 28 cut     (Current : 21)
slots: 1
7,896

Yumi
missile speed: 38
weight: 3.2
accuracy: 105
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 38
thrust damage: 30 cut      (Current : 23)
slots: 1

8,658
Rus Bow
missile speed: 41
weight: 3.7
accuracy: 105
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 56
missile speed: 41
thrust damage: 33 cut       (Current : 25)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
9,974

Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 106
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 52
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 35 cut        (Current : 28)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
11,100


Basically, if I'm right, this massive damage increase would lower a lot accuracy, and a global missile speed for low tier bows would remove the point and click we had before the last patch, which was like some kind of counter strike bullshit. One of the most important thing we could see is, a stop for the bullshit we see everyday on EU1 : porcupines, with 6 arrows in the body, still fighting like demons.

Values are suggestions only, I believe there must be a lot of tests before these changes are implemented in the mod, if balancers ever agree about these.

Also, I saw something interesting in Battle of Europe, archers aren't able to kite, since their moving speed while drawing the bow is reduced by 50% or something like that. A change like it would prevent shotgunning with high damage bows, but in return, giving slighly more wpf to archers to put in melee would be nice. Little disclaimer, I don't want to see archers with 150 wpf, but it'd be nice if we could get something around 50/60 wpf easily (I saw that somehow, if you put ranged wpf, you'll need more wpp to get wpf in melee).


I want these changes, because I'm sick of the current situation, everyone please note I didn't suggest a BUFF, but a CHANGE in the way to play archery. Now, feel free to rape the minus button and hate me because I had an idea to change the current situation which is like FPS games.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 12, 2014, 06:50:56 pm
I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: jtobiasm on November 12, 2014, 07:10:10 pm
I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Molly on November 12, 2014, 07:40:53 pm
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.
Play Counterstrike or CoD then...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: San on November 12, 2014, 08:04:11 pm
Can you list the old stats next to the new ones? You mentioned ammo size, but any specific value in mind? Decreasing accuracy hurts hybrids the most since you'll need to devote more wpf to get into a competitive region. I'll have to look at the reticule sizes for a variety of builds and check damage.

There aren't any triggers for drawing a weapon that I could find. The best I found was a trigger from releasing a shot. Also doubtful that there's a speed modifier for ground movement.

I think it'll be easier to just change the ranged locational damage modifiers along with a tiny damage buff vs. a large damage buff. A large damage buff would increase the raw damage to unmanageable levels. Ranged only deals 85-90% final damage at most places, limbs at 65-75%, and the head ~230%, assuming these are being used vs. something in WSE2. Perhaps increase chest shots from 90% to 110%, back shots from 90% to 100%, head shots to 250%, and decrease limb damage by 5-10%.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Molly on November 12, 2014, 08:09:18 pm
Why change ranged? It really is fine atm. Played my thrower couple of times and I am satisfied. Archers still kill me in 3 body shots... I don't see the point for changing things.

There are obviously only a few single individuals who want their former archery powerhouses back. The majority seems to be fine with it. It's not like there is nobody playing archer anymore. On the contrary, they are still there in numbers but they don't kill off the server population in 10 minutes...


Just leave it be for the love of God... -.-
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2014, 08:55:34 pm
I don't want to be able to hybrid into melee, I want my headshots to kill people.

I don't want to be able to hybrid into ranged, I want my swings to kill people.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Algarn on November 12, 2014, 09:01:33 pm
Updated the OP showing now values in the shop.  Actually, even if damage is buffed, two more arrows per quiver would be cool, since if you're going to miss more often arrows, there should be a slight compensation on this side.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2014, 09:08:57 pm
The point of quiver size is that you should not have enough to survive a whole round shooting at things.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: McKli_PL on November 12, 2014, 10:48:19 pm
I think ranged is fine as is tbh, throwers are as annoying as ever, maybe the damage isnt too impressive but its plenty. And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.
archer/melee hybryd top lel kek ftw :mrgreen: to be effective good,archer(not a fucking peasant with bow stealing low hp frags in the end of the round) you need to sacrifice about all stats and put it into High Pd/Wpf like build 27/24 9pd +180wpf long bow to damage seriously high level polearms/2h's so there isn't even a lot of points to spend on Ath not to mention 1ps, hybryd my ass
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 12, 2014, 11:13:01 pm
played 24/18, 27/18, 30/15 and 18/27 archer with +3 long bow and +3 bodkins (sometimes barbed) arrows and with less than 3 total armor weight on my stf after this patch. Needless to say, it sucked. it really did. with 27/18 i needed 2-4 shots to kill a low leveled guy who had 20 body armor 2 if and 15 str. Thats just underpowered. Before you say ''You know nothing Jon Snow'' try archer yourself. Grab some gear from armoury and test some builds. Now you will see that its not so easy peasy as you think to kill or even hurt someone.

i personally dont really like playing vs ranged, since im cav now, and before that never had much if and armor, but now after this patch i am way less afraid of archers because of their mostly non threatening damage to me or my allies.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: San on November 12, 2014, 11:38:27 pm
@skeletzo, archers can actually use the 8-11 weight body armor now, especially with IF, so that would be an act that's crippling yourself.

Plugging in the numbers, it's close to shooting out Heavy Xbow shots on the high end. Still a fan of buffing abdomen and head shots and nerfing limb damage for all ranged since it deals with final damage vs raw. It'll do around the same thing in a cleaner manner (light vs medium vs plate expected damage) and give a better use to the abundance of accuracy. This wasn't an option in the past because we weren't sure if they were functioning. The limb damage modifiers worked when I ran a test server a few days ago, but I'm still not 100% certain if it's used on the official servers.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 13, 2014, 12:42:20 am
Is it possible to make people stagger more, but do less damage when they get hit in a limb? that would be good
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 01:09:27 am
archer/melee hybryd top lel kek ftw :mrgreen: to be effective good,archer(not a fucking peasant with bow stealing low hp frags in the end of the round) you need to sacrifice about all stats and put it into High Pd/Wpf like build 27/24 9pd +180wpf long bow to damage seriously high level polearms/2h's so there isn't even a lot of points to spend on Ath not to mention 1ps, hybryd my ass

I did longbow 18/24, im pretty shit at shooting but i managed to dish out enough damage to make the hybrid worth while. And i could fuck most people up in melee aswell. Pure archers definitely seems to be doing fine in this patch anyways, you just have to be really good at it.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 13, 2014, 03:14:50 am
The damage numbers in the OP are way too high for the current draw speeds. (Probably way too high in general since PD gets the dumbest multipliers tbh)

Even with the proposed missile speed nerfs, archery and throwing both get their missile speed boosted by their STR based skills (PD, PT), they'll still fly much faster than crossbow bolts.

For archery, the formula for this is

Code: [Select]
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
Translation:

A missile speed of 40 at 6 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
39 at 7 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
37 at 8 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
36 at 9 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed
35 at 10 PD > +3 Arbalest missile speed

(click to show/hide)

Raw damages (These numbers assume no armor penalties)

Proposed +3 Short Bow, +3 Bodkins
210 WPF, 5 PD: 56.98

Proposed +3 Nomad Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 56.37

Proposed +3 Tatar Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 58.36
184 PWF, 7 PD: 61.2

Proposed +3 Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 66.33
184 WPF, 7 PD: 69.47
170 WPF, 8 PD: 72.31

Proposed +3 Horn Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 62.35
184 WPF, 7 PD: 65.34
170 WPF, 8 PD: 68.02
155 WPF, 9 PD: 70.43

Proposed +3 Yumi Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 66.33
184 WPF, 7 PD: 69.47
170 WPF, 8 PD: 72.31
155 WPF, 9 PD: 74.81
139 WPF, 10 PD: 76.98

Proposed +3 Rus Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 72.31
184 WPF, 7 PD: 75.67
170 WPF, 8 PD: 78.71
155 WPF, 9 PD: 81.37
139 WPF, 10 PD: 83.69

Proposed +3 Long Bow, +3 Bodkins
198 WPF, 6 PD: 76.29
184 WPF, 7 PD: 79.8
170 WPF, 8 PD: 82.98
155 WPF, 9 PD: 85.75
139 WPF, 10 PD: 88.16

Proposed +3 Long Bow, +3 Tatar
198 WPF, 6 PD: 92.23

To put things in perspective:

Current +3 Jarids
139 WPF, 10 PT: 75.69

Current +3 Heavy Throwing Axes
139 WPF, 10 PT: 91.78

With the proposed damage numbers, archery would have to have spray and pray accuracy with lower draw speed (esp. on the lighter bows), since their projectile speeds are several times greater, and their ammo count is still much higher than throwing.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Algarn on November 13, 2014, 01:20:13 pm
Well, you understood the idea Huscarlton. These numbers can't be applied to be honest, since as you said, they're way too high (maybe by removing two damages it would be alright). Basically, it would be still quite nice to have more damage, instead of accuracy. The values for missile speed I wrote are lower than the current ones, so, I doubt there would be any problem about it.

Gravoth, you play basically a footman with a bow, I play an archer. Shooting people with a bow is pointless with 6PD, it's like throwing daggers to a tincan. You basically are a low tier melee player with such a build, only able to have an advantage on low armored players, or peasants. For my part, I try to use my melee weapon with my OP 32 wpf and 5 PS to stay alive, and use my bow as my main weapon, like any archer would do. I tried 27/18 on STF, I was surprisingly less accurate than on my main with 10PD, so, hybriding your archer will cost you the power you can get on the weapon you should be using mainly, your bow.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Mr.K. on November 13, 2014, 01:23:17 pm
And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.

Are you sure about that? Right now it seems like the only archer builds that do any damage and have any accuracy are 9PD and 10PD builds. Those builds don't allow me to have any wpf at all in melee, nor do I have any speed to run either, so I have to fight. I made a mistake of going 4 athletics and 0PS instead of two and two and it's really bad atm, especially on those closed shitmaps that we have on EU1 most of the time. Imo a good balance would be that high PD archers can't really fight back (which is the case now), but low PD archers could. Which would be true right now if 6PD actually did any damage.

However accuracy is too high. I'm a below average aim and sometimes can get valour many times in a row. The damage is fine with longbow though. Not over the top, but not too low either I'd say. Imo archery should be more about random hits in a blob of enemies and there's no reason to have too high damage sniper classes. The number of xbow scum on EU1 is prolly an indication that right now it's too strong as their natural enemies (archers, cav, horse archers) were nerfed/removed.

1) Reduce xbow reload speed
2) Reduce bow accuracy and make lower PD builds more viable
3) Bring speed bonus back to throwing and give them bigger bonuses against cavalry

Xbow would be the sniper class with melee abilities. Archery would be a crowd control class that stops the melee blobs from just running around mindlessly. Throwing would be the anti-cavalry class and easy to hybrid.

So I do agree with Algarn that archery needs to be changed, but damage increases are most likely a bad idea even if the accuracy goes down. But something needs to be done to change the current 10PD/9PD only meta which is boring. One thing that comes to mind is increasing Longbow/Rusbow PD requirement. Make it something like 8 or even 9. Then on the other hand drop the requirements for the lower tier bows to something like two, but increase the damage. That would allow them to deal decent damage with 5-6PD with high accuracy, but if you go above 6PD you gain no additional damage. Players could choose to hybrid (18/27 with melee skills), high accuracy (18/33 with high wpf) or high damage (30/21 with long bow). It would need a lot of work to balance it out though as wpf increases the damage as well.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 02:06:09 pm
Im not too picky on my accuracy, i hit enough to make it worth while, maybe its not hitting too hard, but i am standing far away from fighting, only thing i have to worry about is cav and other ranged which can both be shut out easily. An archer thats also viable as melee is much more fun and varied gameplay imo, so i think archery is good as it is. A pure archer still does more damage and is more accurate, they shouldnt be killing machines though which is why i like them as they are now. Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 05:54:33 pm
I don't want to be able to hybrid into ranged, I want my swings to kill people.

Stop being shit then
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Molly on November 13, 2014, 06:08:52 pm
[...] they shouldnt be killing machines though which is why i like them as they are now. Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.
QFT.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 06:11:58 pm
Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.

Score doesn't make you a good archer, it's very very easy to top eu1 if you just wanted to farm points/
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 06:23:08 pm
Score doesn't make you a good archer, it's very very easy to top eu1 if you just wanted to farm points/

Score shows that you are doing something, lots of score means you are doing good.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: rufio on November 13, 2014, 06:34:05 pm
whole server is full of ranged, fuck this game
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 06:49:09 pm
Score shows that you are doing something, lots of score means you are doing good.
]

I'd rather have an archer on my team shooting the other teams best players and get 40 points than an archer who's shooting at anyone and getting 80.

Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 10:52:17 pm
]

I'd rather have an archer on my team shooting the other teams best players and get 40 points than an archer who's shooting at anyone and getting 80.

To me it doesnt matter, dishing twice the damage out helps a lot more, means everyone dies quicker. I dont care about the best team players when they dont have a team left. Same as infantry, i dont care too much what im killing, if the enemy count is dropping then my team is at an advantage.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Algarn on November 13, 2014, 11:09:21 pm
To me it doesnt matter, dishing twice the damage out helps a lot more, means everyone dies quicker. I dont care about the best team players when they dont have a team left. Same as infantry, i dont care too much what im killing, if the enemy count is dropping then my team is at an advantage.

It's different to shoot 3 level 25 new players and shooting Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard/ ... in the head, trust me. Some kills don't matter. That time I made 27/3, I realised it was in fact a massive bunch of peasants/bad archers/ unaware infantrymen there. If I did the same while having a shit load of good players killed, I would have that feeling that I've actually helped the team rather than stole the valour.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 14, 2014, 01:30:07 am
It's different to shoot 3 level 25 new players and shooting Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard/ ... in the head, trust me. Some kills don't matter. That time I made 27/3, I realised it was in fact a massive bunch of peasants/bad archers/ unaware infantrymen there. If I did the same while having a shit load of good players killed, I would have that feeling that I've actually helped the team rather than stole the valour.

Yes but then good players move a lot more than lowbies, they tank more and are probably positioned better. Not shooting anything waiting for good players to pop up is a waste, even if they pop up they might just never get hit. I'd rather focus on hitting multiple targets switching between and finding those that are easy hits. Sure you would chose to headshot a good player over 3 peasants, but its never that simple on the server, there's many factors. Generally just having high score is helping out the team more, if you get lucky and manage to kill a good player then thats great but if you are spending 3 minutes of every round scouting for him and barely shooting other things then its not worth it at all.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Rico on November 14, 2014, 04:02:42 am
The point of quiver size is that you should not have enough to survive a whole round shooting at things.
The point of quiver weight is that you shouldn't be able to run away or fight back in melee.
The point of bow damage reduction is that you shouldn't be killing anyone over the distance.
The point of projectile stun remove is that you shouldn't be able assist your melee allies.
The point of exponential wpf penalties from armor as soon as its weight exceeds 6 is that you either skill iron flesh at the opportunity cost of skilling something decent, or that you wear paper armor.
The point of the slot system is that you can only use tiny melee weapons which get stunned every second swing.
The point of power draw is that you have an additional skill to take care of, so your effective level gets reduced.
The point of horse archery nerfs is that you shouldn't try to seek compensation for the other nerfs by spawning a horse.

Sounds fair :lol:
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: jtobiasm on November 14, 2014, 05:49:39 am
Yes but then good players move a lot more than lowbies, they tank more and are probably positioned better.
I'm sure a good archer knows well enough to get himself into a good enough position to be able to kill a guy he's targeting. Isn't positioning and game sense what makes a decent archer, all you need after that is aim and that comes with practise.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 14, 2014, 06:43:12 am
@Algarn

Some damage increase on bows is necessary (and I think Tydeus already posted something about a buff to some) to make bodkin arrows actually deal more damage than tatar arrows and to address their low effectiveness because of soak for lower PD builds, but I doubt we'll see the return of far range 6 PD archery dealing more damage than 10 PT close-range jarids/medium range throwing lances.

Given percentage increases in raw damage yield greater percentage increases in effective damage because of the way soak works, e.g. your longbow change would increase effective damage on 55+ armor by over 30%, despite being a ~22% increase in raw damage for +3 longbows.

It wouldn't be very fun getting randomly oneshotted with the heaviest helmet + ~65-70 hp, having all unarmored horses die in 2 body shots maximum (or one headshot), or having archers with tatar arrows deal more damage to shields than non-bonus vs. shield melee weapons.

One thing that puzzles me: Wouldn't something with vastly higher effective damage and random spread be better for killing random low-medium armor players that grouped up, instead of targeting specific players?




@Panuru

I'm pretty sure most of your post was just for poking fun at the current state of things, but:

Drop your bow to run/melee.

9/10 PD kills just fine, bows besides Short/Nomad/Tatar will probably get some damage added to them. A small increase in effectiveness for ranged in general may be possible once a rounding issue is fixed, currently the damage scripts just floors any float values, so an extra 1-3 effective damage is subtracted for some attacks depending on how many times the damage is converted to/from floating point for calculations. This is the most noticeable on ranged attacks with low effective damage (HA).

Projectile stuns still exist, flinching to interrupt swings/blocks is easy, it's just the flailing arms and stumbling backwards flinch that's more difficult to do. Locking people in place with piddly squat damage was removed though, but that was a feature that didn't make all that much sense in retrospect anyway.

Armor affects archery/throwing much less now even with the exponential penalties (unless you use crazy high >220 WPF builds with less than 4 PD/PT and full plate or something).

Less melee weapon choice is pretty much a given as a tradeoff. Falchion, Knobbed Mace, and Fighting Pick are fairly decent at resisting stuns for 0s. There are plenty of decently heavy 1s weapons.

All ranged/cavalry classes require some investment that reduces "effective level" vs. a pure melee player. Archery/Throwing get the benefit of PD/PT increasing accuracy. Archery gets the most benefit since the increase in WPF penalty gets smaller as you get closer to 10 PD, while throwing's penalty remains static for each additional PT point.

Crossbows rely exclusively on WPF which has the advantage of freeing up some skill points, but they have slow firing rates and slower missile speeds than bows, which makes accuracy more important. The WPF requirement for crossbows to become fully accurate is much higher than it is for bows right now though, and +3 arbalests with 186 effective WPF are still less accurate than a +3 Longbow with 10 PD, <30 effective WPF.

(click to show/hide)

HA is kind of a flawed class in general for game modes like battle since there's no respawning, and the distribution of ranged/cavalry players tends to be lopsided fairly often between teams. I think San said that he removed the 15 damage cap for the next patch though, so they'll be able to harass cloth armored players or medium armored players with headshots pretty easily.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 14, 2014, 07:10:51 am

(click to show/hide)



what were the values before then?
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 14, 2014, 07:29:17 am
The values for crossbows haven't changed.

The accuracy stat determines maximum accuracy possible with stacked WPF. Weapons with accuracies under 99 can never have truly closed reticules.

The values for pinpoint archery vary with your PD stat, but something like 35 effective WPF with a +3 longbow and 10 PD is quite a bit more accurate than maxed +3 arbalest.
Title: Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
Post by: Molly on November 14, 2014, 09:06:11 am
It's different to shoot 3 level 25 new players and shooting Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard/ ... in the head, trust me. Some kills don't matter. That time I made 27/3, I realised it was in fact a massive bunch of peasants/bad archers/ unaware infantrymen there. If I did the same while having a shit load of good players killed, I would have that feeling that I've actually helped the team rather than stole the valour.
Yes, let's ignore the lvl 29 peasant who is hitting your good team mates in the back while he is fighting and holding off from killing enemies players like Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard... Makes totally sense :rolleyes:
Every kill matters. One less guy who can backstab the own team...