cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Admerius on October 31, 2014, 06:47:44 pm

Title: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Admerius on October 31, 2014, 06:47:44 pm
Hey fellas, first proper attempt to get in to chamber of tears, here goes..

Edit1:
Please add kd risk when S-keying!
(click to show/hide)



The current average speed of characters is to high.
" The movement speed messes up muscle memory aiming with ranged attacks it also makes it far to easy for balanced and high-agi  melee build to continously harrass strength 1hers without shield." -duh! Kept as is to make sens of other posts(Edit2)

(click to show/hide)

It also leads to crazy speedbonuses, I know that the damage is also affected by the increased average WM, but the speedbonus makes armour nearly useless unless wearing tincan OR actively moving with attacks to decrease it.

For example:
Without moving with the attack direction(and failing to parry)
I've been 2-3 shot by two handers when wearing decent armour(56 head, 45 Body, 42 Leg) with my 90 hp. The thing is that wearing poor armour(about 20-25 armour) I take roughly the same amount of hits before dying.

When actively moving with the attack direction(and failing to parry):
The number of survived hits from the same players goes up to 5-7 in the decent armour, and 3-4 in the poor armour.

Armour should be more effective OR speedbonus should be nerfed a bit.

My suggestions: Decrease speed bonus and movement increase(from agi and ath) to 90% of current(maybe even 80% or even 75%).

Please do this, or I might have to resort to performance enhancing substances(like healthy food... or somrthing else) in the AFK world to be able to match my previous skill(or lack thereof).
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on October 31, 2014, 07:00:18 pm
Speed bonus is an important damage multiplier all around. My 27/18 deals 67 raw standing still and close to 90 raw when moving forward. Because strength builds are slower, their damage is reduced quite a bit from backpedalers (and viceversa). Decreasing speed bonus may increase the damage that backpedalers deal.

Armor in general isn't very effective until you reach a little past the 50-55 mark. 4x armor will receive 20-35 damage from all sources while 5x armor will receive 15-25 damage. To maximize the effectiveness of your build, you should probably be in the realm of high 50s armor unloomed, mid-high 60s loomed.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 31, 2014, 07:39:43 pm
I'm not saying that there aren't crazy AGI builds everywhere, but getting harassed by AGI builds (or even balanced builds) that use long-reach weapons as a 1h build with 9 AGI, 3 Athletics is kind of expected, I was having that issue with up to 15 AGI and 5 athletics even before the patch on NA.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Admerius on November 02, 2014, 07:57:22 am
 :oops: QQ mode was enabled...

Thanks for the suggestion San it worked wonders(Currently 60 body armour in non-conquest gear)

Speed bonus is a bit high, but acceptable...

The real thing that annoys me is the movement speed, An easy solution: Add 50-Athletics % chance of knockdown when moving backwards and taking a hit that deals 25% or more hp dmg after armour.


Code: [Select]
IF(S_KEY_my old friendMODE==1 && (HPLost>(0,25*MAXHP))
 OP_Knockdown(0);
Else
Deal_with_it(0);
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Materia on November 02, 2014, 10:13:56 am
I doubt we will ever see agi nerf, it goes the opposite way, and this patch proves it.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Macropus on November 02, 2014, 10:15:35 am
I doubt we will ever see agi nerf, it goes the opposite way, and this patch proves it.
Your post fits to your userpic too well to be a coincidence.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on November 02, 2014, 10:19:02 am
I think backpedaling should be slower pretty much across the board.

Otherwise not too bothered.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Sagar on November 02, 2014, 10:50:06 am
I think agility went over the top. 18/27 is new standard without any penalty.
All items need serious rising difficulty level. 15 str for plated armor, really..... and should be raised for all weapons.

Walking backwards should be slower.
Also there is another solution from Brytenwalda mod - if you backpedaling - it is set on random steps - you fall down on ground.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Teeth on November 02, 2014, 11:55:07 am
Also there is another solution from Brytenwalda mod - if you backpedaling - it is set on random steps - you fall down on ground.
Dumbest feature ever, but I suppose you like more randomization.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 02, 2014, 03:48:24 pm
Lets add random knockdown on any movement direction, ofcourse lower on walking forward than backwards wouldnt make sense otherwise. And i think we need a random chance of disarm when hitting a block, and possible dropping weapon because of buttery fingers when starting a swing. Archers should have a chance of the string breaking and making the bow completely useless for the rest of the round, same with crossbows. Strength builds should also have a chance of going into hulk mode when taking a hit, which makes them immortal and increases their damage to over 9000, while agi builds should have a chance of breaking x bodypart because they havent worked out enough to keep their body healthy.

I think this will make the game more enjoyable, random factors to screw you up is always a nice addition.

Every move should tbh have a diceroll feature where if you havent been praying to RNGeesus recently you could critically fail and smack yourself in the face.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Tzar on November 02, 2014, 04:03:02 pm
Don't nerf Agi or backpedaling..

/Thx

Reason: Cause the gameplay would result to being limited to a 24/7 gangbang hit n run fest......

Which will end in people leaving, cause not everyone enjoy that gameplay.

To the OP, why don't you just join and play siege instead :?:  :wink:
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Grumbs on November 02, 2014, 04:06:42 pm
I'd just try to scale PS a bit differently so lower PS gets a slight nerf while higher PS stays the same. Speed bonus is kind of a big deal when it comes to one player being able to outplay another and so shouldn't really be messed with too much. Backpedling is a bit annoying but W is infinitely better regardless as long as you are aware of kick distance. Its also necessary as a tool to deal with ganks, but as I said holding W to maintain momentum is nearly always better in a fight
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Inglorious on November 03, 2014, 12:59:39 pm
Armour should be more effective

The only thing I remotely agree with
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Mr.K. on November 03, 2014, 06:42:03 pm
Quick testing a few days ago with my 36/9 and 12/36 polearm characters showed that I do pretty much the same damage with an awlpike with both characters. I know I suck at timing the attacks, but still that's a bit hilarious. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Kafein on November 03, 2014, 06:55:12 pm
Dumbest feature ever, but I suppose you like more randomization.

Yeah, Sagar is moronic like that. Same guy wanted cut weapons to be useless against plate and all sorts of spergy things.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: lombardsoup on November 03, 2014, 07:56:14 pm
Yeah, Sagar is moronic like that. Same guy wanted cut weapons to be useless against plate and all sorts of spergy things.

Should have implemented it temporarily just to witness the rage such a feature would create
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Admerius on November 07, 2014, 12:03:25 pm
Ok, my first post was just whine about game mechanics change, I didn't realise that until today.

(click to show/hide)
Summary of above: Deal with it, the 9agi/3wm/3ath is now slower compared to the average for lvl 34. Adjust or die.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: sF_Guardian on November 07, 2014, 08:31:17 pm
My Celtic Axe likes eating agiwhores :)
I still feel that a 27/18 or 30/18 build is far better than an agi-heavy build, maybe it's due to my not so S key focused playstyle, though.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 07, 2014, 09:00:14 pm
Glove weight increase (especially lighter gloves), IF change, and powerful/heavy weapon improvements were a few countermeasures against agi builds becoming too OP, at least in keeping the wpf differences between builds somewhat compact unless agi builds give up more durability. No doubt that they're still great, but some may feel a bit frail at times or believe that they may utilize their armor more effectively with +3 strength and -3 agi.

I think it's good to say that you should adjust your strength to the amount of armour you're going to wear. 15-21 strength for medium-light armor, 21-24 for medium, 24-27 for medium-heavy, and 30+ for plate, assuming decent IF levels.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: WarLord on November 07, 2014, 09:19:58 pm
Glove weight increase (especially lighter gloves), IF change, and powerful/heavy weapon improvements were a few countermeasures against agi builds becoming too OP, at least in keeping the wpf differences between builds somewhat compact unless agi builds give up more durability. No doubt that they're still great, but some may feel a bit frail at times or believe that they may utilize their armor more effectively with +3 strength and -3 agi.

I think it's good to say that you should adjust your strength to the amount of armour you're going to wear. 15-21 strength for medium-light armor, 21-24 for medium, 24-27 for medium-heavy, and 30+ for plate, assuming decent IF levels.

I am playing 27/18 (with 8 IF) in medium-heavy armor at the moment, and all I can say is: I am a fucking tank most of the time, and still got decent running/hitting speed, while oneshotting every lightly armored agi player, and 2-3 hitting the average player.

Really good players still can be uber-deadly with an agi based build (see hearst in light armor, high agi and warspear).
But for 'a-bit-above-the-average' players like me, that are able to block (but not perfectly) and want to survive even with failing more than a few blocks per round (and without a shield against projectiles), a str/if based build still is the way to go. 18 Agi is more than decent enough to compete even with 27 agi builds.

Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Phew on November 07, 2014, 09:33:35 pm
Quick testing a few days ago with my 36/9 and 12/36 polearm characters showed that I do pretty much the same damage with an awlpike with both characters.

This has been my observation as well, and I think it's pretty silly. Interestingly, the agility build is also often more durable than the str build (assuming same armor), because negative speed bonus is so much more effective than additional hitpoints from Str/IF for staying alive. Not to mention it's a lot easier to S-key/dodge with high athletics.

It's also mostly an issue with pierce thrust attacks (i.e. it's mostly awlpike/espada/esotec/etc users that seem to hit for massive damage with high agility builds). Thrusts are just so much easier to get momentum behind than sideswings/overheads.

Rather than directly nerf speed bonus or athletics, my proposition was to make it so Ironflesh negated a portion of speed bonus on attacks against you. That way you wouldn't have these ridiculous situations where guys with 36/9 builds with maxed IF and high armor still get 1-2 shot by agility awlpikers.

Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Ujin on November 07, 2014, 09:44:49 pm
I am playing 27/18 (with 8 IF) in medium-heavy armor at the moment, and all I can say is: I am a fucking tank most of the time, and still got decent running/hitting speed, while oneshotting every lightly armored agi player, and 2-3 hitting the average player.

Really good players still can be uber-deadly with an agi based build (see hearst in light armor, high agi and warspear).
But for 'a-bit-above-the-average' players like me, that are able to block (but not perfectly) and want to survive even with failing more than a few blocks per round (and without a shield against projectiles), a str/if based build still is the way to go. 18 Agi is more than decent enough to compete even with 27 agi builds.
Agi players  2-3 shot almost anyone thanks to the speed / wpf bonus  but at the same time they have 2-3 times your mobility.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: WarLord on November 07, 2014, 09:46:49 pm
Agi players  2-3 shot almost anyone thanks to the speed / wpf bonus  but at the same time they have 2-3 times your mobility.

Yeah, but they won't survive nearly as much ranged projectiles/throwing weapons, bumps and general hits like me, so I'm fine with that.

 :)

Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 07, 2014, 09:48:23 pm
That sounds very complicated (Regarding Phew's suggestion). There's no way to "obtain" a speed bonus value and alter it after the fact. You can only weaken the bonus itself, which arguably makes skeying more of a problem.

The agi build can skey, but they'll deal even less damage than you. The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them. The strength build is naturally more tanky and powerful, but the initiative is in the hands of the agi build. With the same armor, the agi build may go from 198->180 wpf, while the strength build goes from 155 -> 150wpf (guesstimating medium-light armor), difference of only 2 speed.

Stabs have the exact same speed bonus value as swings given the same movement. It's just that pierce receives the best damage increase from higher raw because of its low reduction factor so it just seems that way most of the time with so few weapons with high damage pierce swings. That's part of the reason why the steel pick, bec, and morningstar feel so strong and the trend of nerfing pierce weapons.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Ujin on November 07, 2014, 09:50:29 pm

The agi build can skey, but they'll deal even less damage than you. The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them. The strength build is naturally more tanky and powerful, but the initiative is in the hands of the agi build.
I'm sorry , but there is something fundamentally wrong with this balancing logic.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 07, 2014, 09:55:15 pm
Let's say the agi build skeys and you hit him. You deal less damage. Let's say that instead, he hits you. He deals less damage plus the damage loss from less power strike. That's as simple as I can make it.

Hit the agi build while he's approaching you (you don't have to commit to the agi build's skey if you're not getting swarmed) and you get the speed bonus from the sheer movement difference, even if it's the strength build skeying. If they're both approaching, the agi build will be demolished in 1-2 swings if he's hit.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Algarn on November 07, 2014, 09:57:22 pm
Let's say the agi build skeys and you hit him. You deal less damage. Let's say that instead, he hits you. He deals less damage plus the damage loss from less power strike. That's as simple as I can make it.

Hit the agi build while he's approaching you (you don't have to commit to the agi build's skey if you're not getting swarmed) and you get the speed bonus from the sheer movement difference.

The thing is, if you try to hit someone with 9/10 athl with lower wpf value already, you'll miss, and deal no damage, and while you are preparing another attack, you'll get hit with an instant attack causing massive damages (when you go backward, it doesn't matter with an awlpike... you end up dead, even though you raped the S key).
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 07, 2014, 10:14:57 pm
That's different than what I was talking about. You can get into any hypothetical from there and then it's a full dueling scenario.

On a still target, I can go from 67 raw to nearly 90-100 with speed bonus with a 27/18 build. Even for strength builds, the speed bonus you can accumulate is quite high.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Gnjus on November 07, 2014, 10:40:19 pm
The goal of the strength build is to use the agi build's movement against them.


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Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 07, 2014, 10:57:55 pm
Yes, if you get hit when running at someone, that's your own speed bonus being used against you.

Getting close to ad hominem, so time to eject from thread.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Gurnisson on November 08, 2014, 12:49:58 am
24/21 masterrace. I played it when I was a level 32 pikeman a long time ago (when weapon master was average at best) and I've been using it at level 36 with my 2h after the free respec last patch too. Tried some more agility-heavy builds at 35 with my STF too, but while it can be very effective, it's certainly less consistent than a balanced build.

I don't find the likes of 18/27 better than 27/18 or the other way around, the same as I don't find 12/33 better or worse than 33/12. They are all viable options, performance varying on the map/weapons/playstyle/enemies etc. I find the balance between agility and strength good nowadays.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: spiritus on November 11, 2014, 11:32:45 pm
You are all dumb nigs, i do far better playing a str build on my STF then playing on my 37 main. You must all just not be the best players since aslong as you can block fine agi builds they shouldn't be that effective since they die in 1 hit. Including some motherfuckers with bowssss.... vick has 1 shot me before with 40 armor, chest shot.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: spiritus on November 12, 2014, 12:22:47 am
24/21 masterrace. I played it when I was a level 32 pikeman a long time ago (when weapon master was average at best) and I've been using it at level 36 with my 2h after the free respec last patch too. Tried some more agility-heavy builds at 35 with my STF too, but while it can be very effective, it's certainly less consistent than a balanced build.

I don't find the likes of 18/27 better than 27/18 or the other way around, the same as I don't find 12/33 better or worse than 33/12. They are all viable options, performance varying on the map/weapons/playstyle/enemies etc. I find the balance between agility and strength good nowadays.
This is a good post, not some retard complaining
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Macbeth3 on November 12, 2014, 01:10:49 am
Yes, if you get hit when running at someone, that's your own speed bonus being used against you.

Getting close to ad hominem, so time to eject from thread.

It's technically the same reason why so many cav die fast. They screw themselves with their own speedbonus. If you feel lucky, run towards the horse and get even more speed bonus. It either does massive damage to the cav, or he hits you first and you kill yourself :D
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: StonedSteel on November 12, 2014, 02:58:09 am
You are all dumb nigs, i do far better playing a str build on my STF then playing on my 37 main. You must all just not be the best players since aslong as you can block fine agi builds they shouldn't be that effective since they die in 1 hit. Including some motherfuckers with bowssss.... vick has 1 shot me before with 40 armor, chest shot.

bullfucking shit spirtus, im callin u out on it. i AM a good player, and u know what? id rather fight a 1 v 2 vs tretter and knightmare on a plated fucking charger than to deal with ur wonky agi-pole bullshit, u are one of the people im actually likely to avoid rather than fight...not that ur better, its just sometimes...i dont care for mass bullshit. same thing with jona and san all the rest of em.

and u and ur playstyle are a walking pile of mass bullshit.




Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Phew on November 12, 2014, 03:36:37 pm
i do far better playing a str build on my STF then playing on my 37 main.

Yeah, I'm with Plumbo on calling you out on this one. Who is your str character? 

Nothing breaks the game right now more than a lvl 37 agility polearmer, especially with a staff. I don't think the Warband devs had 104 speed weapon+234 wpf in mind when they coded this combat engine.

You killed me the other day with 2 torso hits from an unloomed iron staff (26b). I have 62 body armor, and it usually takes strength builds with ~50c weapons 3 hits to kill me. But speed bonus matters more than power strike right now.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on November 12, 2014, 04:59:04 pm
My build right now is 27/15 and its the first time in a long while I decided to invest in IF too and I have to say I notice the damage I deal and the hits I can take on average.

I will normally stay away from agi builds though (certainly with pierce or blunt weapons) until I find some support. Simply I find strength builds better in group fights and agi builds better in smaller groups/duels.

It may just be me but with how flimsy agi builds feel I prefer to get higher strength.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 13, 2014, 03:52:56 pm
Yeah, Sagar is moronic like that. Same guy wanted cut weapons to be useless against plate and all sorts of spergy things.

All weapons should have;

cut, blunt, pierce values and all amour should have those same values and soak levels should be set to each value independently.

That way cut weapons can do fuck all to plate, but their blunt and pierce values will still help them do damage.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on November 13, 2014, 05:38:27 pm
All weapons should have;

cut, blunt, pierce values and all amour should have those same values and soak levels should be set to each value independently.

That way cut weapons can do fuck all to plate, but their blunt and pierce values will still help them do damage.

Do you mean show them? Because I thought blunt does most damage vs armour and cut least, which is why agi builds tend to favour blunt and pierce weapons to help them deal more damage and str builds don't need to worry so much about armour soaking up hits?
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: Wolfsblood on November 13, 2014, 07:33:45 pm
All weapons should have;

cut, blunt, pierce values and all amour should have those same values and soak levels should be set to each value independently.

That way cut weapons can do fuck all to plate, but their blunt and pierce values will still help them do damage.

that is something that i thought should have been a thing along time ago. i recommended it in another mod but i believe that i was told it wasn't possible to have 2 separate damage values on the same weapon with the same swing

Ie: heavy great sword 42 cut and 15 blunt or something on a swing. make it so Armour soak values almost completely ignore the cut for the weapon but have the blunt do the majority of the damage. I mean, I believe that is what great swords were meant to do to armour anyway, bash them in not actually cut. (dont quote me on that though cuase im not entirely sure.)
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: San on November 14, 2014, 05:56:06 am
The best we could've gotten were different attack types depending on how close you were to the enemy. I think that would've helped differentiate 4d polearms from 2h had it been implemented.

I'm using a strength build right now and it feels fine to me. My biggest weakness feels like my shield breaking too quickly with 2 shield skill.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: spiritus on November 28, 2014, 09:20:08 am
Yeah, I'm with Plumbo on calling you out on this one. Who is your str character? 

Nothing breaks the game right now more than a lvl 37 agility polearmer, especially with a staff. I don't think the Warband devs had 104 speed weapon+234 wpf in mind when they coded this combat engine.

You killed me the other day with 2 torso hits from an unloomed iron staff (26b). I have 62 body armor, and it usually takes strength builds with ~50c weapons 3 hits to kill me. But speed bonus matters more than power strike right now.
I probably kicked you and hit you in the head, and it you one hit me. It normally takes forever to kill you, like 6 hits. Beeep is who is i play mostly, whenever i can get loomed heavy armor ill play str. My kd was 5-6 playing str compared to 2-4 when i play agi.
Title: Re: Seriously, athletics, agility and speed bonus needs a nerf
Post by: chesterotab on November 28, 2014, 10:23:40 am
i do far better playing a str build on my STF then playing on my 37 main. You must all just not be the best players since aslong as you can block fine agi builds they shouldn't be that effective since they die in 1 hit. Including some motherfuckers with bowssss.... vick has 1 shot me before with 40 armor, chest shot.

I am a dumpster player and I would still agree with spiritus. 30/15 STF any melee spec is easier for me to dominate with compared to 15/30 STF. The play styles are different though, domination happens in different ways.

As a heavy agi you can run like a Ricky Martin to force 1 v 1s all the time and easily come out ahead with s key range control. Farming valor is free, it all depends on how much you want to run, people will always get bored and slip up eventually. You will do well unless you get shot, but your team might still get fucked.

30/15, throw on some plate, grab a heavy hitting weapon and charge the front lines, then get ready to steamroll with a couple teammates. I find this easier than agi kiting because my score will be huge and my teammates will generally still be alive due to my tanking and killing power with the added bonus of being able to laugh off projectiles. if you find yourself against an agi build, either run him down if he is a super dumpster, or take your time and make him come to you. One kick will end it.

seems balanced to me, different roles. my main is 21/21 2h/1h/pole/shielder/cav and i find that balanced too (cav master race. keep complaining about str/agi balance you smelly land-walker plebs)