cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 02:16:31 am

Title: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 02:16:31 am
Asked this in General Discussions... but no real answers.  Thought I'd have better luck here.

Can someone explain this to me:

Quote
San: Ranged weight penalty made percentage-based and is now applied before the PT/PD/HA penalties as 1.5x the melee penalty.
San: Dynamic weight threshold added. Changed from 10 to max(IF*2, strength/3 + 1) with a minimum of 6.

Basically, I'm wanting to know the max armor weight I can take before penalties set in.  The old formula was:

Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10

Is the old formula no longer in use?  If so, what is the new formula?  I don't understand what San posted.
Title: Re: What new max weight for WPF penalty?
Post by: Rico on October 20, 2014, 03:40:43 am
that's why you look at what i posted instead :evil:

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/upcoming-%27revival%27-patch/msg1081996/#msg1081996
Title: Re: What new max weight for WPF penalty?
Post by: San on October 20, 2014, 03:47:21 am
Effective armor weight = (2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 6*hand armor weight - max(6, IF*2, Str/3 + 1))^1.12

You start off at 6, Strength > 18 and IF > 3 increases that minimum. IF of 5 or strength of 27 gives you 10, same as before.

The 1.12 was there before as well.
Title: Re: What new max weight for WPF penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 05:47:44 pm
Quote from: San on October 20, 2014, 03:47:21 am
Effective armor weight = (2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 6*hand armor weight - max(6, IF*2, Str/3 + 1))^1.12

You start off at 6, Strength > 18 and IF > 3 increases that minimum. IF of 5 or strength of 27 gives you 10, same as before.

The 1.12 was there before as well.

Thanks San, it makes sense now!  I knew the jist of it... that now WPF Pen would be based off the STR of a character.  Just didn't understand how that was calculated.  But got it now!


Quote from: Panuru on October 20, 2014, 03:40:43 am
that's why you look at what i posted instead :evil:

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/upcoming-%27revival%27-patch/msg1081996/#msg1081996

Panuru, thanks man!  But how was I suppose to discover that post on page 45 of some thread!   :P   But thanks again guys!
Title: Re: What new max weight for WPF penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 06:09:47 pm
Giving this disclaimer before we get started... using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html (https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me put hard number to the formula that San posted... as it may help others understand.

(click to show/hide)

Using San's formula to find my "Max" armor weight, I'd use IF to determine this.  Why?  Because...

STR = 18  ->  (18/3)+1 = 7
IF = 6       ->   6*2 = 12

You use the greater value... so I have a "Max" armor weight of 12.  This is nice, because in the past, it was set at 10.  So if a Ranged player has a high amount of IF, it helps them to wear heavier armor.

(click to show/hide)

So, plugging in my armor into the formula... along with my 12 max armor weight.

Head = 1.7 * 2 = 3.4
Body = 10.3
Arms = 0.3 * 6 = 1.8
Legs = 0.1
-----------------------------------
Total Weight = 15.6

Effective Armor Weight = (Total Weight - Max Armor)^1.12

(15.6 - 12) = 3.6^1.12 = 4.2

So my effective weight is 4.2.  Which means that a penalty will be incurred for being 4.2 effective weight.



Now how many points of WPF are penalized for my 4.2 Effective Armor Weight.  We'll calculating this penalty from the formula in the Mechanic's Mega Thread:

Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)

Going to work the formula in pieces, starting at the end:

1 - (.01 * 4.2) = .958

So, with my base throwing WPF at 140:

140 * .958 = 134.12

If I had base Thrwoing of 140, but now have 134.12... that means I have a 5.88 penalty to my WPF because of armor.  From what I know, this is round to 6.

So I have a penalty of 6 WPF incurred because of armor.  Mind you, I'd still have another 66 WPF penalty because of Power Throw.  You take your PT*11 to find that.  For every point of Power Throw, you have a WPF penalty.  This means the more PT you have, the greater the penalty.  As mentioned, it is PT*11.  This is different for Power Draw.  Not sure what the value is... but I know it's not PD*11.

So with that, my actual WPF is:

Base WPF - PT Penalty - Armor Weight Penalty = Effective WPF

140 - 66 - 6 = 68

I believe this is correct!  Hope this helps someone out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As mentioned at the top of the post using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html (https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html)
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 20, 2014, 09:58:26 pm
So with the end result, do you need that to be a certain number to be able to use different pt?
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Kaido on October 20, 2014, 11:30:14 pm
Someone make a program or smthing.Im too stupid for this  :lol:
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 11:44:53 pm
Quote from: tkn123 on October 20, 2014, 09:58:26 pm
So with the end result, do you need that to be a certain number to be able to use different pt?

Hey TKN, not sure what you're asking... but going to guess that you are asking if my final number effective which throwing weapons I can use.

The answer is... no.  If you have the proper PT points taken, you can use that weapon.  If you have 6 PT, you can use Throwing Lances, no matter what.


The final number I got was for my "Effective" WPF... which was 68.

Effective WPF is important for 2 reasons.

1)  That's your actual WPF for determining accuracy.  So even though I took 140 WPF in Throwing, if I wear the armor listed, I actually only have 68 WPF.  The more PT you take, the more WPF you need to be accurate.

2)  You have to have a positive "Effective" WPF to pick up throwing weapons (that have already been thrown).  You only need 1 effective WPF to do this.  However, if you only have 1 effective WPF, you would be very inaccurate.  You can have negative effective WPF... but you would not be able to pick up throwing weapons that have already been thrown.  If I were to put on very heavy armor... this would be the case... as my armor weights would cause me to have a negative effective WPF.  Heavy Gloves really effect this... since they are Glove Weight * 6.  Meaning Heavy Gauntlets at 2 weight are really like have 12 weight.  This makes since... because if you are Ranged... whether throwing or shooting a bow... having Plated Gloves would cause you be very inaccurate... if you could even throw or pull a bow string at all.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 11:45:28 pm
Quote from: Kaido on October 20, 2014, 11:30:14 pm
Someone make a program or smthing.Im too stupid for this  :lol:

Kaido... just go naked.  Problem solved!   8-)   :P
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 20, 2014, 11:54:05 pm
San... if any of this is wrong... sorry... maybe you could point out my mistakes!  Not so much for me, but for others.  I'd hate to steer folks in the wrong direction.

I'm actually using really light armor on my Thrower, so I know I'm under the limit.  The armor set I used as an example was on purpose to put myself over the limit.  It's an armor set I use on melee build.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 21, 2014, 12:03:38 am
Added this disclaimer to my post calculating all the formulas and crunching all the numbers.

Quote
Using San's Calc is a lot easier.  It will calculate this for you.  However, with patch 0.4.0.0 just coming out, I doubt it's been updated.  Once it has been updated, I'll remove this warning.

Look under the Weapon Damage Calculator section for getting Effective WPF.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html (https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html)

San, when it's updated, can you make a simply post here saying so.  Thanks man!
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: San on October 21, 2014, 02:25:51 am
It's updated.

If you have greasemonkey/tampermonkey, you can also use this for the c-rpg website (click on raw): https://gist.github.com/smj72/bd81b6fd62ff2b8b5a89

The wpf reduction is something along the lines of ((abs(100 - effective weight * (2/3)) * wpf) / 100). Ranged is the same, but take off the (2/3), then the PD/PT penalty is applied afterwards.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 21, 2014, 05:30:52 am
Nice!  Thanks for updating San!  U iz awesome dude!
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: HappyPhantom on October 21, 2014, 06:58:17 am
Commenting so I can find again. Chur.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: San on October 21, 2014, 07:03:02 am
I messed up some of the code but fixed it for archery/throwing and it lists PD/PT and armor penalties separately. I also learned how these things update (need to manually install one last time, then it'll update automatically).
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Kaido on October 21, 2014, 07:46:51 am
Quote from: San on October 21, 2014, 02:25:51 am
It's updated.

If you have greasemonkey/tampermonkey, you can also use this for the c-rpg website (click on raw): https://gist.github.com/smj72/bd81b6fd62ff2b8b5a89

The wpf reduction is something along the lines of ((abs(100 - effective weight * (2/3)) * wpf) / 100). Ranged is the same, but take off the (2/3), then the PD/PT penalty is applied afterwards.

Works tnx :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 04:11:20 pm
what i was asking is, how much effective wpf do you need to use 7pt?
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 21, 2014, 06:10:35 pm
Quote from: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 04:11:20 pm
what i was asking is, how much effective wpf do you need to use 7pt?

Naked... you should need at least 78 base WPF to be able to have 1 Effective WPF.

If you want to wear armor... then your build will come into play... and you'll have to use the formula that San listed out.  Or just use San's calculator (link below).  But in you stats and your armor weights.  It will show how much Effective WPF you have after all penalties.

https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html (https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html)


Also... to be safe... make a STF thrower to test to make sure that with whatever armor you want to where... you can still pick up thrown weapons.  Of course, keep in mind... if you decide to wear heavier armor... the may put you with a negative Effective WPF... meaning you can't pick up thrown weapons.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 08:22:39 pm
so as long as I have a positive effective wpf i can pick up my 6pt throwing lances?

As I have a 2 effective wpf, and i can't pick em up D:
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Mallets on October 21, 2014, 09:02:32 pm
Quote from: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 08:22:39 pm
so as long as I have a positive effective wpf i can pick up my 6pt throwing lances?

As I have a 2 effective wpf, and i can't pick em up D:

Either your calculations are wrong?  Or San's are... if you used his calc.  Make sure you include your IF and PT when calculating with his calculator (along with all your proper weights).  It's all in the Weapon Damage section of his calculator.

If you have a positive Effective WPF... you are suppose to be able to pick up any thrown weapons that you have the PT for.  Meaning, if you have 4 PT, you still couldn't pick up Throwing Lances.  But with your 6 PT and 2 Effective WPF, you should be able to pick up all thrown weapons.

San, are we missing something here.  Positive Effective WPF allows you to pick up thrown weapons, correct?
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: San on October 21, 2014, 09:08:19 pm
Yep. I don't know how the game rounds, though, but I just translated the formula from the code. Does the weight penalty first, then the PT penalty. He needs above 66wpf after the armor penalty for 6PT. You'll get the proficiency too low warning if you don't have enough.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 09:11:54 pm
Well I have enough wpf, did it in your calc, so there must be something missing
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 21, 2014, 10:09:52 pm
Could you list your armors, power throw skill, and WPF before penalties?
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 10:14:26 pm
Sure:

I put in the calculator:

PT 7
IF 7
WM 7 - 170

Armet
Milanese Plate
Heavy Gauntlets
Cased Greaves

With the exact weights of the armour it comes up with 2 effective wpf.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 21, 2014, 10:24:46 pm
I'm getting a result of 1 WPF left (which should still mean you should be able to pick up your lances), maybe the ingame script is rounding things differently.

Puzzling.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 10:27:12 pm
Well yeah so the formula must be wrong or you must of missed something :/
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: San on October 21, 2014, 10:51:37 pm
Code for threshold

Code: [Select]
(val_div, ":total_weight", 10),
(agent_get_troop_id, ":troop", ":agent_no"),
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_atr_str),
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold_if",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_skl_ironflesh),
(val_div, ":weight_threshold", 3),
(val_add, ":weight_threshold", 1),
(val_max, ":weight_threshold", ":weight_threshold_if"),
(val_max, ":weight_threshold", 6),
(val_sub, ":total_weight", ":weight_threshold"),
(assign, ":weight_penalty", 0),
(try_begin),
(gt, ":total_weight", 0),
(set_fixed_point_multiplier, 1000),
(assign, ":weight_penalty", ":total_weight"),
(convert_to_fixed_point, ":weight_penalty"),
(assign, ":exp", 1),
(convert_to_fixed_point, ":exp"),
(val_mul, ":exp", 112),
(val_div, ":exp", 100),
(store_pow, ":weight_penalty", ":weight_penalty", ":exp"),
(convert_from_fixed_point, ":weight_penalty"),
(try_end),

Code for weight penalty:

Code: [Select]
(try_begin),
#weight penalty/1.5 as %
(assign, ":weight_penalty_percent", ":weight_penalty"),
(try_begin),
(this_or_next|eq, ":wpf_id", wpt_archery), #Ranged classes receive 1.5x the penalty of melee
(this_or_next|eq, ":wpf_id", wpt_crossbow),
(eq, ":wpf_id", wpt_throwing),
(val_mul, ":weight_penalty_percent", 3),
(else_try),
(val_mul, ":weight_penalty_percent", 2),
(try_end),
(val_div, ":weight_penalty_percent", 3),
(val_sub, ":weight_penalty_percent", 100),
(val_abs, ":weight_penalty_percent"),
(val_mul, ":new_value", ":weight_penalty_percent"),
(val_div, ":new_value", 100),
(try_end),

Then it subtracts 11*PT and checks if the final wpf is less than 1. Either I made an error somewhere or there are rounding issues. I don't really know how the game rounds values, and it doesn't deal with floating points very well.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 21, 2014, 11:07:09 pm
Found the error.

Quote
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_atr_str),
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold_if",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_skl_ironflesh),
         (val_div, ":weight_threshold", 3),
         (val_add, ":weight_threshold", 1),
         (val_max, ":weight_threshold", ":weight_threshold_if"),
         (val_max, ":weight_threshold", 6),
         (val_sub, ":total_weight", ":weight_threshold"),
         (assign, ":weight_penalty", 0)

IF currently doesn't give the proper bonus, because it is never multiplied by 2.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 21, 2014, 11:17:32 pm
Can that be fixed?
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 21, 2014, 11:31:21 pm
San said he was probably going to change the formula for the STR/IF factor to:

Quote
...Probably Str/3 + IF

It'll probably come with the hotfix for some missing textures/models/etc.
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: San on October 22, 2014, 12:45:20 am
Whoops. I didn't ctrl+Z enough (already committed Str/3 + IF stuff and had to undo), the *2 was there, my bad!

Code: [Select]
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_atr_str),
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold_if",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_skl_ironflesh),
(val_mul, ":weight_threshold_if", 2),
(val_div, ":weight_threshold", 3),
(val_add, ":weight_threshold", 1),
(val_max, ":weight_threshold", ":weight_threshold_if"),
(val_max, ":weight_threshold", 6),
(val_sub, ":total_weight", ":weight_threshold"),
(assign, ":weight_penalty", 0),
(try_begin),

Now:
Code: [Select]
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_atr_str),
(troop_get_slot, ":weight_threshold_if",":troop", slot_troop_crpg_skl_ironflesh),
(val_div, ":weight_threshold", 3),
(val_add, ":weight_threshold", ":weight_threshold_if"),
(val_max, ":weight_threshold", 6),
(val_sub, ":total_weight", ":weight_threshold"), #San: wpf weight threshold of max(Str/3 + IF, 6) before wpf penalties begin
(assign, ":weight_penalty", 0),
(try_begin),
Title: Re: Max Weight for Ranged WPF Penalty?
Post by: tkn123 on October 22, 2014, 05:20:39 pm
So does that mean there is something wrong with the calc or the rounding errors, or do we have to wait for the hotfix?