Also, it's gonna look really weird on the katana :(So it's not possible to have a few different animations per attack direction in the same weapon class ? Something like in case of flamberge ?
So it's not possible to have a few different animations per attack direction in the same weapon class ? Something like in case of flamberge ?
Looks good.
Also, any video or demonstration as of yet?
I like the pose itself and it looks like you peeked into German school of fencing for the reference, which I always was a big fan of.
Never imagined you to actually be useful, Senni. ;)
the flamberge use the polearm animation.
If you modify this animation, all polarms would be affected.
If you want to keep the actual animation for katana and to use this one for the other 2h, you need to use a new animation slot and it's not possible if i remember (already mensionned for nudge stuf if i'm not wrong)
It would be awesome if it was possible, we can add the half hand fight animation or other stuff like that but i doubt that this is possible
Taking away the 2h stab animation would probably be the last dagger that kills off the class.
Why? Once the polearm up and right swings are toned down, 2h will have the best swings in the game.
highest damage. awlpike>Morningstar
What :?:
there is a polearm that will beat a 2h in literally any situation.How exactly is this relevant in any way?
How exactly is this relevant in any way?
Taking away the 2h stab animation would probably be the last dagger that kills off the class.
More importantly, how can he make this statement knowing that 2 of the pole arm attack animations are going to get nerfed?. That is half of the animations, for those who are counting.
And while the awlpike does generally do mor damage than the Morningstar, when it hits, it's a much harder weapon to use. It requires wiggle stabs because honest straight stabs just glance since polearm stab was nerfed. A more fair comparison would be the Morningstar and bec. But we all know 41 is more than 37.
How exactly is this relevant in any way?
More importantly, how can he make this statement knowing that 2 of the pole arm attack animations are going to get nerfed?. That is half of the animations, for those who are counting.
And while the awlpike does generally do mor damage than the Morningstar, when it hits, it's a much harder weapon to use.
The thrust looks quick and powerful, but a bit shorter than before. That means that longer thrusting weapons will have an edge on 2h, but as soon as you can close in on someone while wielding, say a Longsword, you pretty much have the edge on them in every way as long as you're focused.
Awlpike requires skill? :lol:
Sure, you need skill for any weapon. However, please don't even try and imply that Awlpike is in any way considered a weapon for the skilled, it really isn't.
It's just one of those one-off weapons that are so ridiculously fast and damaging that most people get demoralized and make mistakes, allowing virtually any scrub to score nicely with it.
Awlpike takes a wiggle stab to not glance in any decent armor, every time. Morningstar doesn't take such manipulation. Whether or not you consider that a skill is up to you, but most people will argue that is harder than not having to wiggle every time.
Lol you guys are just bad if you think it's a nerf.Do you have any other arguments other than just opinions?
Scrubs.
I don't think you fought somebody who knows how to use an awlpike then. knitler can show you if you want to go to EU.
Do you have any other arguments other than just opinions?
Still didn't get an answer to my question.
How is this animation *WORSE*?
Because it's shorter?
Because if you take away the 2h stab animation and turn it into something worse than it currently is it would be a nerf to a class that is already worse in a competitive standpoint and still will be after the patch.
They're getting rid of insta hitting on the two swing directions. Something that they did to 2h's a long time ago. True, it is a nerf but it still will leave polearm users with the largest advantage in both 1v1's and groupfights because of their array of weapon choices.
That is an opinionated answer. You're also forgetting that awlpike is a much better weapon in the length category. With a Morningstar you have to W key and block about 3 hits from 3 opponents before you get the chance to swing.
Edit for bjord:
But now you're comparing weapons of different lengths which give advantages in different areas. The same thing can be said about the long axe going after a flamberger. Once you get past the length you have every advantage in the world over your counterpart.
if the stab animation is changed to something shorter it would be a large nerf. it would bring the length comparisons between 2h and polearms unimaginable.
I think a better way to put into words Jack1's argument, is to argue from the perspective of what the aggregate have. So ignore individual weapons, and focus on generalizations about the classes. It's not actually as weak of an argument as the word "generalization" might seem to imply as ultimately, it's about class identity.
If there is one thing that two-handed swords have going for them over any other weapon type, it's the two-handed thrust. More than anything else, this is what most people will consider as their single largest, class-defining advantage. They have good animations, sure, but the other weapon types' animations aren't behind by enough (thanks to past tweaks), to be able to say any longer, that animations are where they have the edge. In general, two-handed swords are balanced around being quite generic, as opposed to the high versatility and utility that 1h and polearms provide. Not specializing in any one thing, not having high utility or any one stat or feature that makes them "the best" in that category, with the exception of their thrust.
I'm not sure it will kill the class, but without a doubt, you can't take away this advantage, not reimburse them with anything else, and consider them unharmed on the class–balance spectrum. To make matters worse though, simply reimbursing by granting additional damage won't really address this issue either. The two-handed swords will still be at risk of losing their identity.
Lastly, I should probably say that while I'm very hesitant of this change, I'm not strictly opposed to its implementation either.
Of course they lose their identity, the animation is completely altered and whatever feel you had for the thrust will have to be re-learned. Isn't that a given?Lots of things. Some of what I said in my post, as well.
However, assuming that the animation is good and that it offers a way of killing your enemies, then what's the issue?
I'll have a length comparison and the rest of the anims soon for testing. (At which point I'll make a video)Keep in mind, effective reach for thrusts isn't about how far the anim reaches, but how far it can reach while staying within both the inner most (where damage is at 100%) and upper-inner(Where damage begins to decrease and ultimately reach 0%) areas of the sweetspot.
Roughly at this point:
The tip extends to ~185, with the old anim it's ~226.
-41 reach on the current 2h stab, which I think is at 90 atm(?).
So 49+ reach with this stab.
However, looking more closely at the old anim, the arms literally go through each other for the last couple of frames.
At the longest reaching frame, the left hand is solidly inside the right arm. Mine will never be able to reach that far (unless I too clip).
I'll continue tweaking, so it may close the gap a little, but it will be a pretty big knock on the length.
Keep in mind, effective reach for thrusts isn't about how far the anim reaches, but how far it can reach while staying within both the inner most (where damage is at 100%) and upper-inner(Where damage begins to decrease and ultimately reach 0%) areas of the sweetspot.
This graph shows the current thrust sweetspots in green.
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So any further extensions after about 73%(which is roughly a 70% raw damage reduction), don't really matter at all.
I find your hoplite vs 2h sword reach argument a bit strange though.
How is this animation *WORSE*?You'd be foolish to not appreciate the utility that having one attack with 80 more reach than the others brings you in battle. Greatswords have three great swings up close and a stab that compares to 165 reach polearm stabs. That is without counting the extra effective reach achieved by walking during the very long animation. This versatility is what makes Greatswords such consistently great battle weapons. Anyone attacking a teammate within your stab reach has to pay attention to you. In a ganking situation you can stab around or over your teammates to get the kill. Many lancers never even attack an aware player with a Greatsword. Do a stab and you suddenly turn into some sort of support polearmer. Take away the 165 reach stab and there will be a host of situations where you will no longer be able to threaten opponents anymore, which has huge consequences.
Because it's shorter?
That's either one hell of a strawman, or you completely misunderstood most of what I was saying.(click to show/hide)
To a degree, effectiveness or stats alone, can be irrelevant. Probably the best case one can bring up, is the Highland Claymore. Realistically, it has the most favorable trade-offs with all other greatswords, and yet it's just about the least used.It's not even about whether or not you're able to make the thrust effectively the same, quantitatively. There are, as you said–yet failed to fully grasp–several reasons aside from an item's effectiveness, to choose one item or playstyle over another. This is about current functionality, identity, and psychology(players being fickle and resisting perceived changes). If history has taught us anything on this topic, it's that people are really sensitive to animation changes, and unlike any we've done before, this looks nothing like what it's replacing.
Both are important, tydeus. We know you don't need 100% to destroy a horse, because they are providing a tremendous speed bonus. On the flip side, it's usually better to to whiff than to over reach and glance because of the timing penalty.You don't need 100%, but you definitely cannot have less than 0%, and realistically, aside from a 0 armor target, you'd going to have to have more than 10 or 15% raw, even for the best case, highest speed bonus situations (when a horse is riding at you). So fine, not 73% of the animation's total length, but 75%(17.5% of your initial raw damage).
I find your hoplite vs 2h sword reach argument a bit strange though. Most 2hers would seldomly stab a hoplite since they will suffer a great weapon stun for hitting the shield. Meanwhile a 2her suffers the least movement penalty, only second to a swashbuckler, so it should be easy to overrun a hoplite.
Has a bit too much wiggling left and right with respect to the character's facing, though. Still seems a little robotic. I'd suggest rather than starting with the weapon higher and lowering it at the start of the weapon thrust, doing the reverse; starting with the hands waist height with the sword tilted up, then raising the fists while trying to maintain the same tip height, and then moving into the arm extension. Sort of like the graph of y=sqrt(x/2).
Few more things, I'd slide the left foot forward more as he leans, much like how you slide the left foot back. Also, I'd move the position of the abdomen(changes the position of the whole character) so that the right foot appears to be staying in the same spot. Actually, I'd do this first, it might be surprising just how much more organic the whole thing looks with that.
Keep in mind, effective reach for thrusts isn't about how far the anim reaches, but how far it can reach while staying within both the inner most (where damage is at 100%) and upper-inner(Where damage begins to decrease and ultimately reach 0%) areas of the sweetspot.I have a hard time to believe that this graph shows the actual reality on the server.
This graph shows the current thrust sweetspots in green.
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So any further extensions after about 73%(which is roughly a 70% raw damage reduction), don't really matter at all.
Polearm with good animations (what we have now) just make 2h obsolete.
Whatever it takes to get people playing 2h again would be a welcome addition, this animation included.
I don't think I've encountered more than a couple Greatsworders in the past month. Which is crazy, because it was the de facto playstyle only a couple years ago. A year ago, it was all Longsword/HBS, and those are quite rare now also. There just isn't compelling reason to go 2h anymore, because pole offers:
-better nudge options
-better overhead animation
-MUCH better diversity (with one build you can have like 8 different playstyles just by raiding armoury)
-Horse rearing
2H is just lolstab and the usual feint+hold tricks (that you can still do with pole). 1h is similarly boring, but I rely on the utility of shield neutral nudge to keep it interesting.
Maybe the M&B devs were onto something with the original polearm implementation? OP polestun, but truly awful animations. Polearm with good animations (what we have now) just make 2h obsolete.
they're outclassed in every other situation
Whoever Phew is, he has a bugged website please fix it for him, it isn't displaying the mod godlike of all 2handers:(click to show/hide)
Does it have a ballsack on the pommel? I didn't think so. ItalianSword4Lyfe
Because 2h thrust is the only advantage they have, obviously.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:(click to show/hide)
EDIT-The thing that would "fix" 2h vs. pole balance/diversity is the proposed change from a while ago (that got shelved) where polearms would only deal their stated damage at the end of the weapon, and a much reduced blunt damage for inboard strikes. 2h swords would then be suitable for all ranges, but polearm would require careful attention to spacing.
Yeah, whatever happened to this? Would be really good!
Delayed until end of January (I forgot to upload my working version to my dropbox :|, currently away from my computer)
If this gets implemented I need a shovel ingame!
If this gets implemented I need a shovel ingame!Found a shovel model somewhere, could actually propose it.
Why did you decide to showcase it with flamberge or heavy great sword? Those two use polearm thrust animation and it fits them perfectly.
Found a shovel model somewhere, could actually propose it.
Would go with the pickaxe tbh.
I don't mind the tricks, length is the only issue I have with 2H thrust.
While the 2nd animation looks a little forced, or more rigid (it just doesn't look all that natural/comfortable to hold a sword like that) it seems like the best option from a balance perspective. In the first few seconds of the 1st animation it looks almost identical to a downblock, so rapidly switching between downblock and stab could get awfully confusing if that animation were used.
Also I didn't like the overall feel of it so much, so I tried to think of a different starting position.