cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vicious666 on May 21, 2011, 04:52:45 pm
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With some good player like Tor from searider and Gtx from risen, we tested pole stun-range and shields
And even if i am a shielder, and Tor is a well know Pole user, and Gtx is a 2hander. we all agreed
that Polestun is Op at moment, not as stun itself but combined with long range+dmg and also good speed of pole.
We also tested huscarl and steel shield (both masterpiece) and we all agreed that, non crash weapons do too less dmg. my steel shield received over 100 hit from tor with a bec de corbin and remained Perfect. that is retarded. and also is retarded that Tor with a 2h axe can destroy my steel shield in 5-6 hit. and a huscarl in 4.
We need a compromise. the main issue here is that non crushing weapon do too less dmg, and crushing do too much.
imho my steel shield should be destroyed by 50 max hit of bec de corbin, but also cant be destroyed by only 5 hit of a 2h axe but more like was pre-patch. 15-17 hit.,so we are here for say, and i hope many good player agree. that polestun crush weapons and shield loom, need asap a rebalance.
i am not trolling so take serious this thread, and tor and gtx and i hope other will confirm this. what you wanna more? when top players talk AGAINST theyr own weapons? Tor Pole, and me shielder? and one of top 2handers confirm.
thx
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I can confirm the tests we did and I support Vicious oppinion, something needs to be done. Pole stun is stupid, and the different damage shields take from different weapons is to big a difference. Although I forgot to mention Vicious, the axe is pretty fast, but then again I have a high AGI build.
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With some good player like Tor from searider and Gtx from risen, we tested pole stun-range and shields
And even if i am a shielder, and Tor is a well know Pole user, and Gtx is a 2hander. we all agreed
that Polestun is Op at moment, not as stun itself but combined with long range+dmg and also good speed of pole.
We also tested huscarl and steel shield (both masterpiece) and we all agreed that, non crash weapons do too less dmg. my steel shield received over 100 hit from tor with a bec de corbin and remained Perfect. that is retarded. and also is retarded that Tor with a 2h axe can destroy my steel shield in 5-6 hit. and a huscarl in 4.
we need a compromise. the main issue here is that non crushing weapon do too less dmg, and crushing do too much.
imho my steel shield should be destroyed by 50 max hit of bec de corbin, but also cant be destroyed by only 5 hit of a 2h axe but more like was pre-patch. 15-17 hit.
so we are here for say, and i hope many good player agree. that polestun crush weapons and shield loom, need asap a rebalance.
i am not trolling so take serious this thread, and tor and gtx and i hope other will confirm this. what you wanna more? when top players talk AGAINST theyr own weapons? Tor Pole, and me shielder? and one of top 2handers confirm.
thx
I kind of agree with some of this. Pole stun on the really fast polearms is just plain stupid. However, what do you think of pole stun on the really heavy slow polearms? Regardless, it's too bad that polestun seems to be hardcoded.
I have a bit more to say on shields though. As someone who plays 1h & shield a lot I LIKE that axes can break them so quickly. It forces shield users to put away their shield and manual block. It helps with the misconception that all shield users are skill-less. Especially since a 1 hander without a shield needs to deal with weapon stun.
I sort of disagree about shields being too strong against regular weapons.
If you don't have an axe, you shouldn't be trying to break the shield anyways. You should be trying to kill the player. If they're turtling up, that's easily fixed by circling around them, a good solid kick or just getting a friend to help. On my 1 hander with my Heavy Round and Italian Sword, I kill Huscarl users all day long. I find it even easier with my two hander as I'm so much more mobile.
However, shields could use an adjustment. Perhaps by increasing the movement penalty of shields like the Huscarl or Steel shield? As it stands, there really isn't a penalty for using one aside from the cost.
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I thought for a long time that shields were anti-ranged weapon, but they're actually nearly unbreakable(high tier ones) by "normal" weapons at the moment.
So yes, you can bring the old footwork, feint, and spam is all you need, but that is utterly false. Since shielders usually have at least 15 agi, and 5 athletics, and with the "change" of athletics, you can't go all around easily even with 7 athletics.
It actually forces people who want to be effective as a melee against shield users, to use axes, wich is really a shame for a mod with so many great weapons. And then the poor shields will actually not last very long at all.
I agree that there's something to be done about that.
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if its reduced , crushing weapon will have no meaning in crpg... so i use combination of GLA and bec, carry them both on the field
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I thought for a long time that shields were anti-ranged weapon, but they're actually nearly unbreakable(high tier ones) by "normal" weapons at the moment.
So yes, you can bring the old footwork, feint, and spam is all you need, but that is utterly false. Since shielders usually have at least 15 agi, and 5 athletics, and with the "change" of athletics, you can't go all around easily even with 7 athletics.
It actually forces people who want to be effective as a melee against shield users, to use axes, wich is really a shame for a mod with so many great weapons. And then the poor shields will actually not last very long at all.
I agree that there's something to be done about that.
The thing is though, the use of high tier shields has decreased dramatically. Previously, everyone and their mother had a Huscarl. Nowadays I'm seeing a lot more heaters and kite shields on the field and I gotta say, those break pretty quickly to regular weapons if you beat on them enough. I just don't see shield users as being some unholy unstoppable force. Most shield users are pretty easy to beat and I don't think their primary skill (defense) should be lessened. Especially since it can be solved so easily with an axe.
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I am sorry for this post, which might seem as trolling. Please do not regard it as such, but merely a wish to offer some constructive critisism.
Vicious, if in any way possible please do edit the formatting of your posts in a way that is native to this forum.
Your opinion might be right, it might be wrong, but reading it in the way it is currently formatted is a pain in the ass.
In order to truly value and judge your opinions and not my perceived image of you as a person through your formatting,
please do something about it!
Concerning the subject.
I have no clue!
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I kind of agree with some of this. Pole stun on the really fast polearms is just plain stupid. However, what do you think of pole stun on the really heavy slow polearms? Regardless, it's too bad that polestun seems to be hardcoded.
I have a bit more to say on shields though. As someone who plays 1h & shield a lot I LIKE that axes can break them so quickly. It forces shield users to put away their shield and manual block. It helps with the misconception that all shield users are skill-less. Especially since a 1 hander without a shield needs to deal with weapon stun.
I sort of disagree about shields being too strong against regular weapons.
If you don't have an axe, you shouldn't be trying to break the shield anyways. You should be trying to kill the player. If they're turtling up, that's easily fixed by circling around them, a good solid kick or just getting a friend to help. On my 1 hander with my Heavy Round and Italian Sword, I kill Huscarl users all day long. I find it even easier with my two hander as I'm so much more mobile.
However, shields could use an adjustment. Perhaps by increasing the movement penalty of shields like the Huscarl or Steel shield? As it stands, there really isn't a penalty for using one aside from the cost.
making them slow can be a solution, but just enought for not allow them chain-stun builds. not much or they become useless, since theyr weapon are already big and quite easy to block.
the main issue come from pole who have 95+ speed and loomed to same dmg of a good 2h sword + more range+ stun.
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making them slow can be a solution, but just enought for not allow them chain-stun builds. not much or they become useless, since theyr weapon are already big and quite easy to block.
the main issue come from pole who have 95+ speed and loomed to same dmg of a good 2h sword + more range+ stun.
I totally agree with you on this. It's kind of ridiculous that you can be chain stunned by an agi build wielding a spear. However, I don't think it's as much as an issue with say a German Poleaxe since it's so damn slow and hilariously easy to block.
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I actually completely agree with this, I've been using a steel shield with a Long Espada for one generation and I always ran from weapons that are effective against shields, simply because it takes only a couple hits and your shield is gone.
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I actually completely agree with this, I've been using a steel shield with a Long Espada for one generation and I always ran from weapons that are effective against shields, simply because it takes only a couple hits and your shield is gone.
The thing is though, that's how it's meant to be. It's all about balancing. I also like that I have to put my shield away in those situations. It adds a little bit of excitement towards a class that's otherwise horrendously boring to play.
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I rock the regular poleaxe, but I too suggest remvoving the pole-stun alltogether (as I think just doing it on the fast polearms would be very much work for not that much gain).
About shields: I very much agree that regular wep dmg against shields should be increased, fighting against a good agi shielder it's just a matter of time before you lose. I however disagree that axe dmg vs. shields should be lowered, shields SHOULD fear axes.
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seams that is hard-coded (the stun)
otherwise will be a good solution remove it , becouse like crushtrhue on stupid fast and long weapon , is an op and skill-less related feature
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I have a problem with the "Bec" and the hafted weapons "chain" stunning me, if they get one sneaky hit on you during melee your done. The shields on the other hand seem ok. They got nerfed in the ninja patch and dont loom so great anymore.
The elite cav shield will break to a shield breaker in 3-4 hits, and 9-10 hits to a normal blade. Seems balanced
The Hvy round shield will break to a shield breaker in 4-5 hits, and 10-11 hits from a blade. seems balanced.
You guys have to remember that shield carriers have a nasty hit to their run speed while holding even 1 shield. Back off and use team work.
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Stun is fine so long as one can't chain hit an opponent into the Earth with it. As for the shield question I say keep things as they are. I use a reinforced heater shield and I find it just about breaks every round. Shielders need to learn that their shield is a resource to be used wisely and in moderation, not a brick wall that can steamroll opponents.
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I am sorry for this post, which might seem as trolling. Please do not regard it as such, but merely a wish to offer some constructive critisism.
Vicious, if in any way possible please do edit the formatting of your posts in a way that is native to this forum.
Your opinion might be right, it might be wrong, but reading it in the way it is currently formatted is a pain in the ass.
In order to truly value and judge your opinions and not my perceived image of you as a person through your formatting,
please do something about it!
Concerning the subject.
I have no clue!
Please listen to this man and many will take you more serious!
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I agree that shields should break a bit easier from normal weapons, but that they should be able to withstand atleast 50 arrows. Hitting a shield with a dagger should do more damage to it than an arrrow. However, throwing weapons should be able to destroy shields like a melee weapon. (atleast the axes)
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polearms are fine weapons but the polearm stun is just lame on weapons like LHB and BEC its just a chain of lol stuns gets old fast...
about the anti shield options 2h have morningstar axes and what not so i dont see a huge problem there unless u have a hard time letting go of your german greatsword fx.
EDIT: should´nt this be in the balance forum??
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People have been endlessly whining about this or that being 'OP' for as long as cRPG has been around.
If the game isn't balanced by now, even with all of the incessant tweaking over the course of its existence, it never will be.
Maybe it's just time to accept that. There's far less risk of losing players over 'balance' issues than there is over the boredom that arises due to lack of new game features. I'd much rather see new things being added to cRPG than I would yet more tweaking.
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Yeah? So, a super high shield skill with the most resilient shield in the game can hold off regular weapons from breaking it for a very long time? Sounds right.
An axe with a bonus to shield, specifically meant to counter shields and break them: It breaks the most resilient shield in 5-6 hits. Sounds right.
pole stun is hardcoded, can't change until WSE implementation.
Did I miss anything? Looks like there isn't an issue here to me...
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Yeah? So, a super high shield skill with the most resilient shield in the game can hold off regular weapons from breaking it for a very long time? Sounds right.
An axe with a bonus to shield, specifically meant to counter shields and break them: It breaks the most resilient shield in 5-6 hits. Sounds right.
pole stun is hardcoded, can't change until WSE implementation.
Did I miss anything? Looks like there isn't an issue here to me...
Word. +1
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Hmm, why do a shield break and a wooden shaft last forever?
Ooooh, i have an idea for a new feature, weapon cracking. After, let´s just say, 10 - 12 parries against a shieldbreaking weapon, your weapon breaks and has only 2/3 of its original lenght left.
Sounds fair to me.
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about the anti shield options 2h have morningstar axes and what not so i dont see a huge problem there unless u have a hard time letting go of your german greatsword fx.
All the 2hand shieldbreakers (except fighting axe in 2hand mode) are unbalanced. Makes them quite hard to use against the faster 1handers.
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All the 2hand shieldbreakers (except fighting axe in 2hand mode) are unbalanced. Makes them quite hard to use against the faster 1handers.
If you're using it to break shields, why would you need to feint anyway? Regardless, it's still a lot easier to kill the guy behind the shield than the shield itself.
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If you're using it to break shields, why would you need to feint anyway? Regardless, it's still a lot easier to kill the guy behind the shield than the shield itself.
Unbalanced weapons do very fluid and faster feints when timed correctly, including a delay feint timing that can allow you to swing your weapon straight through the enemy as if it were a swing, only to do an instant swing from the other side. It is pretty crazy.
unbalanced weapons can't do a few types of feints, but that is it.
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Yeah? So, a super high shield skill with the most resilient shield in the game can hold off regular weapons from breaking it for a very long time? Sounds right.
An axe with a bonus to shield, specifically meant to counter shields and break them: It breaks the most resilient shield in 5-6 hits. Sounds right.
pole stun is hardcoded, can't change until WSE implementation.
Did I miss anything? Looks like there isn't an issue here to me...
I think you summed it up rather nicely. :)
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unbalanced weapons can't do a few types of feints, but that is it.
Unbalanced doesn't just affect feints.
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Hmm, why do a shield break and a wooden shaft last forever?
Ooooh, i have an idea for a new feature, weapon cracking. After, let´s just say, 10 - 12 parries against a shieldbreaking weapon, your weapon breaks and has only 2/3 of its original lenght left.
Sounds fair to me.
Because shields breaking in game makes sense, it keeps the game flowing, shields give you a good advantage whilst they last. Weapons breaking would just be retarded and just means everyone uses shield breaking weapons and everyone ends up weaponless, or just running away from fights. My main uses 1h + Shield ( Strategus build ) and I do just fine, I avoid getting into direct confrontation with axes unless I have no choice, even then I could just put my shield on my back and block with my sword.
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Unbalanced weapons do very fluid and faster feints when timed correctly, including a delay feint timing that can allow you to swing your weapon straight through the enemy as if it were a swing, only to do an instant swing from the other side. It is pretty crazy.
unbalanced weapons can't do a few types of feints, but that is it.
I thought weird animations like intant swings or diagonal swings etc. are only client side and your enemy sees normal feints and strikes all the time.
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Hmm, why do a shield break and a wooden shaft last forever?
Ooooh, i have an idea for a new feature, weapon cracking. After, let´s just say, 10 - 12 parries against a shieldbreaking weapon, your weapon breaks and has only 2/3 of its original lenght left.
Sounds fair to me.
http://youtu.be/uU70_sMi9hA?t=23s ^.^
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use kick., crush on shield.
+ when they have their shield up they are slower, so if you are in open field just run away
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Because shields breaking in game makes sense, it keeps the game flowing, shields give you a good advantage whilst they last. Weapons breaking would just be retarded and just means everyone uses shield breaking weapons and everyone ends up weaponless, or just running away from fights. My main uses 1h + Shield ( Strategus build ) and I do just fine, I avoid getting into direct confrontation with axes unless I have no choice, even then I could just put my shield on my back and block with my sword.
I have started to use the steel shield, because it works against swords, so as the wooden ones should have work against nonbreaking weapons.
And i want to use the shield and not put it away every second fight.
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/end thread
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Well.... the stun does make sense in some ways. I have a MW warspear and you can only get stunlock with a stab and then only say 60% of the time does it stun. The side swings dont stunlock because it is such a light weapon. Also you cant chainstun. You can only be polestunned once in just as when your weapon gets stunned by a heavier weapon. The second hit will not stun you. As for the heavier weapons like the poleaxes it is is OP imo. Because those weapons are damn heavy hitting and the two hits that they get on you WILL kill you. And these heavy pole weapons like the elegant pleaxe are also damn fast and will ALWAYS get the stunlock due to the weight of them. I did some testing with vicious and 2 other mercs yesterday and using a normal poleaxe i found that I could win a fight after striking only 1 blow because the next strike would be an overhead onto their face.
As for shields i think they are fine tbh. You can get a +3 loomed steel shield like vicious and it wont die to anything but an axe. But that is how it is meant to be. The shield is very hard to kill, but it is extremely heavy - wpf taken, it doesnt give you good body coverage and its ugly as hell. When I fight vicious, I dont look to hit his shield, I look to hit him.
Thats my input.
PS: I also found that I fight better without the shield because i lose the wpf reduction and am not weighed down by it.
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so basically you dont want your shield to last 100 hits from normal only 50 (niether of which happens much in battle)
and you want it to last more against axes.. So you just want your shield to last longer? hell 2h has lolstab pole has stun pretty fair imo
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Whatever, stunlock needs to be removed one way or another :|
As for the "everlasting" shields, keep it as it is (maybe a slight overall increase in dmg against shields), M&B gameplay is designed around shields breaking, but if you spend ALOT of points, it should be pretty tough imo. (All shields should still fear axes!)
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havent read everything here, but just felt id throw in my 2 cents as a shielder.
the bec shouldnt do anything to the steel shield. bec is a pierce wep, pretty sure pierce takes a penatly against shields. weapons should have trade offs, the bec is a can opener, not a shield breaker. if you want to break shields, dont bring a bec.
secondly, it would be interesting to see a closer gap with shield durability vs various weapons. swords and other cut weapons do often do too little to shields, while i enjoy my hard to break shield, it might be worth some testing to try increasing the hp on shields but lowering the resistance, that means weaker hits would achieve greater damage, but with the added hp, it wouldnt really break too much faster, its just that you wouldnt run into as many instances of weapons that were unable to harm the shield. and by increasing the hp, the bonus vs shield weapons would not break through the shields as quickly, since they already were only minorly effected by the resistance, so lowering resistance would not make much diff to the damage they did. say you had an axe that normally broke a shield in 5 hits, and a sword that normally broke it in 20. if you upped hp and lowered resistance, the axe might take 7 hits and the sword 16.
could be fun to try some different things in a beta fashion on the dev servers... but overall, i like that people who want to break shields need to bring shield breakers. its just like people who want to kill cav bring pikes... if you want to argue that a steel pick should be just as good at stopping a horse as a pike... well thats a shitty argument; i know you arent saying a bec should be just as good as an axe, but the rock paper scissors element of crpg is good. no one wep or play style should have an advantage against all others. everything has weaknesses, and one of the weakness of pierce/blunt damage guys is shielders who dont get feinted out.
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I agree with some parts.
The polestun has always been ridiculous, it could need some addressing.
In my opinion, bonus against shield is fine. And there's so few 2handers that use axes anyway, since they're all unbalanced. It's mostly poleaxes (which there's an abundance of).
However, either add unbalanced modifier to great long axe or reduce its bonus against shield somewhat. It's almost a jack of all trades. 'Cept for its thrust, but even it is viable enough as it is.
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First of all, I'd like shields to get proper collision models. Round shields will catch allmost everything, while others have to exactly face the incoming projectile then hope for the best.
About durability, as other people said, more durability against ranged, much less against normal weapons. Maybe one hit more against shieldbreakers, but that's not really gonna change anything. Once your shield is hit by a shieldbreaker, it often is hit by the same opponent until it breaks (or you are being aggresive, but most shielders aren't). But first of all, please fix the shield hitboxes. They were over nerfed just because the huscarl and bucklers had a force field (btw, they still have, but all other shields suffered like hell in the process). Now arrows often can go through shields because the real model isn't as big as the showed one. Same thing for weapons.
I need more accurate experience and data about polearm stun to make myself an opinion but the testing reports here seem in check with what I feel. Some people with decent footwork just can attack, turn around you and get one lucky hit, then bye you die because you are stunned and the basic "twister" spam footwork makes it possible for you to be unable to block the next swing. No I'm not talking about you, Tor :lol:
(...)
However, either add unbalanced modifier to great long axe (...)
Aww, I couldn't say better myself.
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:idea: :idea: :idea:Cant we just lower the weight of the fast polearms :?:
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I agree that shields should break a bit easier from normal weapons, but that they should be able to withstand atleast 50 arrows. Hitting a shield with a dagger should do more damage to it than an arrrow. However, throwing weapons should be able to destroy shields like a melee weapon. (atleast the axes)
That's definitely trolling right ? Plate covered round shield and steel shield are already immune to arrows, and i don't think there's any need of change for the arrow to shield damage. But the sword to shield damage should be slightly increased (not against steel shields, or others like that though). Just take a heavy cavalry shield with 7 shield skill, and swordmen will need so many hits to break it down that they'll die of boredom before.
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Unbalanced doesn't just affect feints.
exactly. unbalanced affects the ability to change direction while releasing (simulating the inertia of weight).
basically, top player vicious is concerned about his loomed steel shield being wrecked by a GLA in 6 hits... the polearm stunlock discussion seems a filler to me.
shield is the ranged perfect counter and easymode autoblock. at least axes break it... and the top shielders still end a long round without breaking their shields.
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The polestun has always been ridiculous, it could need some addressing.
Now specifically Bjord, but to all the polestun complaints:
If I remember correctly from the WB beta discussions, the stun was introduced to prevent fast weapons from dominating slow heavy weapons by spamming. If the heavy weapon user can get the first strike, he can force the light spammer into an initial phase of defense - but there is a following stun immunity during which you cannot be stunned again. Most of the complaints come from fast weapon spammers that cannot start their spam right away. I do not know if polearms have extra stun over 2H or that they are simply heavier than the 2H weapons. I remember discussion about giving spears extra knock down chance when hitting legs (was dropped) and more stun (I do not remember it implemented) to simulate tripping, pushing, hooking and such polearmy things. For game balance, it allowed spear users not to be immediately closed to 0 range and spammed.
Now, when this was balanced for Native, the polearms were mostly types of spears which had very low swing damage and low damage overall. They also tended to be light. In cRPG we have lots of fast, heavy and damaging polearms. In terms of game balance, these weapons do not justify the stun. I guess they could either loose weight (to reduce stun) or damage or speed to compensate. This is mostly relevant to the big swingable polearms. Light swingable polearms have damage stats than are often lower than 1H weapons. They really do need some stun in order to be viable.
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Best option is to slow down high weight polearms significantly and give them a slight buff in dmage.
Make polearms slow and hard hitting. Prevents stunlucking an oponent to death and prevents spam.
Weapons like LHB and Bec could loose some weight and damage and maintain their current speed
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I use a war spear and can stun lock, sometimes. I could do it better when I had more agility but I would like to share some of my experiences with yall.
It is best against slow opponents in a duel. On the battle field its pretty useless except for those one on one occurrences.
You can still block in time after getting stunned, unless I move to your backside while you are stunned. Then I can keep it going IF I get a stun roll.
If my opponent is armored I have to hit them ALOT. Have IF? gota hit you more. A stun lock form 100-0 is ultra rare.
I will, on average, have to hit an opponent 5-10 times to kill them and if I get hit at any time I will die. I will be wearing armor under 5 weight and lower str with no IF. I can die to peasant hits with a pitchfork.
If you block then swing and I miss the block I die, any weapon will do.
If you bring a friend to the fight you never have to worry about stun locks. I have just never been able to keep a stun lock going AND block someone else, EVER.
A stun lock will frustrate anyone that it happens to. I think it is because of the helpless feeling that happens while you are being damaged. There is a loss of control that occurs for the victim. These ill feelings happen when stun locked much more than when a person is one shot by a high damage weapon/str user.
The most common stuns happened in 2-3 hit combos. After this flurry my armored opponent might have lost 25-30% of his hit points.
Now there are a lot of spec wep combos that could deliver that damage (AND MORE) with a single hit.
IMHO there is no stun lock chances on the battle field. It might happen every now and then but one hit kills are to advantageous over multiple hits that kill over a time all while leaving you defenseless.
Even if you have been stun locked from full hit points to death it is because you missed the block. Sure it was frustrating to watch your avatar die a slow painful death but the point is YOU MISSED THE BLOCK.
I can not recall anytime that the slower pole arms (below 97 spd) ever being able to stun lock for even 2 consecutive hits. Even with a stun hit opponent could get a block and return swing.
I just do not see how stun locking is an imbalance issue. It just adds more dynamics to the battle field and isn't near as good as a straight up heavy hitter.
Oh and when I wrote that I die in 1-2 hits, it is mostly true..a stunlocker takes 3-4 hits.