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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Mustache on August 12, 2014, 03:41:24 am

Title: Shield bash
Post by: Mustache on August 12, 2014, 03:41:24 am
I think that the shield bash function should do somewhere between 10-15 Blunt damage. my reasoning for this is that weapons like the staff have 18 blunt but a SB only does damage to naked people. Although this might be a little OP for shields it would make a good deal more sense. a way to make this less OP would be to make it that if a second shield user is holding up the shield or "blocking" that the shield would absorb it (no damage). This would serve to balance out shield classes like hoplite (Shield and spear) and sword and board (1h and shield). At the moment not using a shield is beneficial for having greater reach and damage capabilities while those who choose to use the shield can be spammed to death with no defense except to turtle up. Historically shield bashing was used very commonly and it is common sense that being whacked by a shield would do some damage. A way to balance this more could be to extend the cool down time to be able to preform another bash, or to slow down the animation a small amount. That is all i have to say! please leave helpful comments  :wink:
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: agweber on August 12, 2014, 04:00:01 am
They already do blunt damage, but only if in neutral stance (i.e. not blocking with it), with damage varying depending on (I believe) strength and shield skill. I think low 20's as highest.

Also, this would belong in the suggestions forum. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: LordLargos on August 12, 2014, 08:36:53 am
They already do blunt damage, but only if in neutral stance (i.e. not blocking with it), with damage varying depending on (I believe) strength and shield skill. I think low 20's as highest.

Also, this would belong in the suggestions forum. Just sayin'
They do damage when attack is held and it's far less than 20, it's more in the ballpark of kick damage.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Macbeth3 on August 12, 2014, 10:16:58 am
They do damage when attack is held and it's far less than 20, it's more in the ballpark of kick damage.

even "neutral" bashes do damage. Not much, but they do. Only actually happends on on 15 armor or less.
It also does no damage if the opponent is blocking (doesn't matter wich direction they block).

Holding your attack, and then nuding increases this damage, but kinda same rules apply.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: bavvoz on August 12, 2014, 01:01:22 pm
Its the most fun way to kill those fast dagger peasants :D
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 13, 2014, 08:02:51 am
It would be nice to scale more off of shield skill and shield weight. Maybe something like strength/3 + shield skill * 2 + shield weight * 2. raw blunt damage. Defensive shield bash would deal half of that. As long as blocking negates damage, I think it would be fine. I think a balance of strength, shield skill, and weight helps give it a unique balance. Both high shield skill and heavy shielders would have good bashes.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: korppis on August 13, 2014, 08:39:05 am
It would make sense that heavy shield bash would do more damage. But there should be slightly longer delay on attacking after the bash. If you have fast 1h weapon you can sometimes pull a free hit with shield bash... that's pretty broken IMO.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 13, 2014, 08:47:53 am
Thinking about  Strength/3 + shield skill * 2 + max(shield weight * 2, armor / 4) instead.

25 raw is practice dagger damage. 38 raw is wooden stick damage. 24 raw is club damage. All loomed of course.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 13, 2014, 10:36:43 pm
whoops, translated from raw to blunt randomly there. I was also mistaken about club giving +4. 23b->44 raw

also, changed to Str/3 + shield skill * 3 + max(shield weight, armor / 7)
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: MURDERTRON on August 14, 2014, 12:16:52 am
It would be nice to scale more off of shield skill and shield weight. Maybe something like strength/3 + shield skill * 2 + shield weight * 2. raw blunt damage. Defensive shield bash would deal half of that. As long as blocking negates damage, I think it would be fine. I think a balance of strength, shield skill, and weight helps give it a unique balance. Both high shield skill and heavy shielders would have good bashes.

I don't think weight makes sense.  Bashing with a huscarl shield would be cumbersome and less effective and way slower than any another shield, yet its pretty much the heaviest.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Ulter on August 14, 2014, 01:35:37 am
The problem with making shieldbash do damage is that it is not possible to defend oneself against it in any way atm. (not fun!)
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on August 14, 2014, 02:14:12 am
Shield bash already does damage.

Blocking in any direction sets all nudge raw damage to 1, even if you're not facing the nudger.

I'd say that's a defense.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: HappyPhantom on August 14, 2014, 05:29:55 am
The problem with making shieldbash do damage is that it is not possible to defend oneself against it in any way atm. (not fun!)

Kinda like fucking crushthrough.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Phew on August 29, 2014, 07:21:30 pm
also, changed to Str/3 + shield skill * 3 + max(shield weight, armor / 7)

::respecs to 3/45, 15 shield skill and a Steel Shield::

Neutral nudges from that char would do more damage to most people than 1h swords. Shame the nudge hitbox is so crappy, because you'd be dead from a whiffed nudge long before you killed anyone with them.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 29, 2014, 07:39:39 pm
It'll be clamped, lol. Clamped at 50 raw, which is ~5-6 more than heavy gauntlet punching damage from a strength build. Even if it isn't clamped, 1 + 45 + 11 = 57 raw. That's definitely a lot, 5PS +3 warhammer, but it's not as much as you think without speed bonus, hold bonus, etc. It'll do 15-25 damage to most at 57, 8-18 at 50.

Slightly more detailed of what I think would work

-New formula: Strength/3 + shield skill * 3 + max(shield weight, armor / 7)
-Defensive shield bash damage is divided by 2 instead of 5
-Blocking negates damage
-Clamp to 50 instead of 30
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Phew on August 29, 2014, 07:48:05 pm
It'll be clamped, lol. Clamped at 50 raw, which is close to heavy gauntlet punching damage. Even if it isn't clamped, 1 + 45 + 11 = 57 raw. That's definitely a lot, but it's not as much as you think without speed bonus, hold bonus, etc. It'll do 15-25 damage to most at 57, 8-18 at 50.

Slightly more detailed of what I think would work

-New formula: Strength/3 + shield skill * 3 + max(shield weight, armor / 7)
-Defensive shield bash damage is divided by 2 instead of 5
-Blocking negates damage
-Clamp to 50 instead of 30

Looks good, but could you shift the "vulnerable" window for the defensive shove to be later in the animation? This nudge leaves you vulnerable to be hit for an eternity before the nudge lands, so everyone just spams through it. I understand that it should be a risky move, but the risk should be incurred if you miss or after the nudge lands, not while you are shoving your shield forward. It doesn't make sense that pushing your shield forward magically makes weapons phase right through it. It isn't a very good "defensive" move since it basically gives your enemy a free hit before it can land.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 29, 2014, 08:19:05 pm
Nothing concrete.

The code is here: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2uSZrPWE

Another file has animations.


I think the pole shove is a good premium example and the shield shove should be more like it.
  ["nudge_pole_shove", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.75, "anim_nudge_pole_shove", 0, 25, blend_in_release],
 ],

Focus on the second row: Duration, animation name, beginning frame, ending frame, and sequence flags.

Now, here are the 1h nudges:
(click to show/hide)

Shield nudges
(click to show/hide)

swingright fist = 1h neutral nudge
nudge shove = 1h defense nudge
direct fist = 1h attack nudge

Shield bash = neutral nudge
Shield shove = defense nudge
Shield backhand = attack nudge



I am not too knowledgeable about this, but less dead frames by changing the starting frame number, decreasing the duration since shield has a noticeably higher one, or changing the animation itself might help (or just make it too good). I am also not very knowledgeable on how hitboxes work for these things. Perhaps the current hitbox feels off because it's so slow and clunky?
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Phew on August 29, 2014, 08:35:57 pm
Yeah, the pole shove is a good baseline for what the shield shove should be, in terms of speed/vulnerability.

The neutral nudge is about perfect in terms of speed, but a third to half the time it just whiffs for no reason (seems to get worse with increasing ping). Maybe it's just a mismatch of the apparent reach due to shield height and the actual reach that's probably hard-coded. Do you think it's possible to make the reach of the neutral and offensive shield nudges be equal to the shield height? Round shields currently have such a huge advantage against projectiles, it would be nice if kite/heater-type shields were given some advantage beside cavalry forcefield (which is stupid and needs to go away, but that's a different topic).

In any case, I feel good about the future of shield mechanics with San on the job :)
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 29, 2014, 09:34:53 pm
I'm not entirely sure if it will work out for the better, but it's more fun to try out something interesting and then take it away next patch if it doesn't work out than do nothing with an unsatisfactory mechanic. I know many others don't really share my perspective. Your average shielder would do around 26 raw, pretty much chip damage for long fights where each player cannot penetrate the other's defenses. I also wanted to give heavy shields a role outside of just being crappier shields and give strength-oriented players their own unique strength at penetrating formations.

I think if there are groups that are concerned about both sides, it's looking good. http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/hand-pavise-shield-vs-heavy-round-shield/

Trying out a buckler with 8 shield helped open my eyes to the rate at which the forcefield increases. It leads me to believe that kite shields become quite formidable at high shield skill, though I can't say that with complete certainty without trying them for a few days on one like I did with the buckler.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Jack1 on August 29, 2014, 10:03:20 pm
it would be realistic, yes, but it would be highly overpowered if you give shield bashes, or nudges in general, an actual decent damage.

nudges can go around any blocks, they are basically impossible to counter. I can view NA 1 just being a nudge fest as soon as or if this gets implemented were everybody blocks each other until they get close enough to nudge. The only thing comparable to what this would be is crush though. with crush though you must have a maul which is more than spammable if you try to go for an overhead. mauling is high risk high reward where as this will be no risk and small reward.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Phew on August 29, 2014, 10:13:03 pm
it would be realistic, yes, but it would be highly overpowered if you give shield bashes, or nudges in general, an actual decent damage.

If you don't want a nudge to damage you, press RMB. Where is the problem?
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Jack1 on August 30, 2014, 12:30:01 am
If you don't want a nudge to damage you, press RMB. Where is the problem?

It is an instant hit that you can't prepare for. The only way to change that is to make it have a charge up period but that would just mean its a 5th attack direction
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: MURDERTRON on August 30, 2014, 12:54:42 am
If you're going to add damage to it, it would be some what broken for the reasons Jack is listing.  You could, I guess, try to balance it with another mechanic, like shield bashing damages your shield at least somewhat significantly.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 30, 2014, 01:11:25 am
That's interesting, never thought of shield damage.

Shield bash already does damage in the mid-20s. It just doesn't damage anyone since it's almost always reduced to 0. The average would only be a few points higher with those specializing being around 10-15 pts higher. Only archers and enemies in cloth would really feel much, with specialized builds being able to chip 5-10% off of low-medium armor.

Maybe I'm not too great at shield bashing, but to me it's pretty slow and risky. I might need to try to get better at it so I can better understand.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Tydeus on August 30, 2014, 01:18:56 am
Maybe I'm not too great at shield bashing, but to me it's pretty slow and risky. I might need to try to get better at it so I can better understand.
Just talk to Huscarlton Banks about nudges.  :lol:
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on August 30, 2014, 07:03:15 am
As a nudge spammer:

As far as rankings go, from best to worst:

(click to show/hide)

Generally, neutral nudge is best nudge for polearm/2h/swashbuckler/shielder, just because it has the lowest recovery time, is the fastest to land, and seems to be the least wonky with hit detection as ping gets higher.

It's mostly about making your opponent block again if they are already blocking, interrupting an attack instead of blocking (doesn't work against people who hold attacks with good enough reflexes/ping), neutralizing an enemy long enough to swing at another enemy before blocking, making an enemy's character turn ever-so-slightly slower as you run behind them, or helping a teammate get a hit.

Shoves are mostly just useful for getting away from an enemy/shoving them off a cliff.

A 50 damage clamp seems hilarious to me, since it'd mean that anyone who's using a x/39 steel shield build will probably oneshot another x/39 steel shield build, unless they've leveled enough to get 9+ str for +3 light-medium armors.

In general those builds would tend to die in one real hit from most players anyway, but it seems funnier when it's from a shield bash somehow. I guess they'd just die in 2-3 bashes with the current system though, so no big change there.

I dunno if agent_deliver_damage_to_agent hits the feet like it seems to in non-WSE, so maybe it would do less damage than I imagine.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Tydeus on August 30, 2014, 07:19:07 pm
A 50 damage clamp seems hilarious to me, since it'd mean that anyone who's using a x/39 steel shield build will probably oneshot another x/39 steel shield build, unless they've leveled enough to get 9+ str for +3 light-medium armors.
Haha, yeah. That's an amusing way to look at it. This is one of the reasons why I don't really want to be giving nudges damage, that's not what they should be for. If we need to tweak frame data (what is this a 2d fighter?) then we should do that.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: San on August 30, 2014, 07:21:10 pm
Damage reduction on neutral shield nudge would make sense then after that analysis, maybe /2 and defense /3. This would cause them to deal 0 damage most of the time.

I dunno, maybe I'm just underestimating the 50 damage Max, avg 25, since that's just like a 22-25b weapon swing with *no* speed bonus, hold, etc. A 3 strength character will get 1 shot from a light breeze :)
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Gurnisson on August 30, 2014, 07:28:56 pm
The problem with making shieldbash do damage is that it is not possible to defend oneself against it in any way atm. (not fun!)

This
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Kafein on August 31, 2014, 01:34:37 am
Well honestly it's still easier to defend oneself against shieldbashes than against projectiles. Outrunning most shielders isn't really a feat.
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 01, 2014, 02:50:21 am
It's a bit tricky, with the current nudge speeds I probably wouldn't advise giving bashes any meaningful damage unless it's a counter to a swing since it would at least incur a lot of risk or require more timing. I've seen people reliably counter neutral nudges with held swings, though it requires good ping. Having enough ATH/AGI to make it look like nudge hit detection whiffs just by circling someone seems very common though. I guess it's some sort of mismatch between what the client sees for their turn direction vs what the server sees.

I'd prefer some sort of hit detection improvement over damage adjustments, though some things like pommel strike and shield attack nudge could probably use additional tweaking after that.

If you really want to tinker with nudge damages with the current animations I'd suggest the following:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Shield bash
Post by: Phew on September 01, 2014, 11:59:13 pm
It's a bit tricky, with the current nudge speeds I probably wouldn't advise giving bashes any meaningful damage unless it's a counter to a swing since it would at least incur a lot of risk or require more timing. I've seen people reliably counter neutral nudges with held swings, though it requires good ping. Having enough ATH/AGI to make it look like nudge hit detection whiffs just by circling someone seems very common though. I guess it's some sort of mismatch between what the client sees for their turn direction vs what the server sees.

This man speaks the truth. The current damage is fine; enough to chip away at archers and ninjas, but practically zero for everyone else. It's the inexplicable whiffs that get me killed, so I'd recommend making the reach a function of shield height, so the hitbox would at least match up more closely with the animation on the screen. With the tall kite/pavise/board shields, nudges that appear to chop right through someone's head don't actually connect. It would also give non-round shields a niche besides retarded cavalry forcefield (which you should remove while you are at it).