cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: _Tak_ on August 10, 2014, 11:13:05 am
-
-Note this is just a game balance idea based on my opinion-
70% of my deaths in battle is always caused by Cavs, the bump damages takes away a huge chunk of health and their horses never get damaged when bumping someone.
When a spear-user especially a pikeman managed to stab/ stop a horse. The rider will just run away because the spear didn't do enough damage unless there are other teammates around the pikeman.
a horse should die instantly when charged into a pike, even a rouncey can survived after being stabbed to the head by a spear.
All sorts of weapons with swings can do a OK amount of damage to the rider/horse when it hits them, but weapons such as longspear/pike they never seem to do enough damage vs Cav since you can't swing them. the idea is add bonus damage for longspears/ pikes so that everyone single cav will suffer a great consequence when charged into a pike.
-
I agree. Throwing lance as well. I think it might be possible to accomplish this through some workarounds without WSE, but I think it's a good idea.
-
It's kind of annoying how blocks look like magical forcefields, especially vs riders. Nobody should be able to block attacks on their mount's feet unless they're riding something appropriately tiny like a donkey.
Fairly easy to do bonus damage vs horses/people currently riding a horse, I think someone already posted sample code in another thread. (Tydeus?)
Only tricky bit is dealing extra damage to someone who was just dehorsed by that same stab unless you get the dehorsed guy's animation, but being vulnerable from the dismount is probably enough anyway, so just extra damage on the horse seems like enough.
The basic logic is below, haven't touched the module system in a long time, so please excuse any bad formatting.
# Trigger Param 1: receiver agent no
# Trigger Param 2: dealer agent no
# Trigger Param 3: inflicted damage
# Trigger Param 6: item kind no
# Trigger Param 8: missile item kind no
# Trigger Result: if set, damage dealt to agent
ti_on_agent_hit
(try_begin),
(agent_get_troop_id, :agent_troop_no, param1),
(eq, :agent_troop_no, -1), #Horses have a troopid of -1
(assign, :should_multiply, 0), #using this to determine if/which multiplier should be used.
(try_begin), #begin try block for pike/long spear
(gt, param6, 0),
(this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of -3 pike)), # An alternative for pike and long spear is check for length of 245 length or greater with the WSE item_get_weapon_length operation, since nothing is as long or longer than long spear besides the pike.
....
(this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of +3 pike)),
(this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of -3 long spear)),
...
(eq, param6, (itemkinds number of +3 long spear)),
(assign, :should_multiply, 1)
(else_try), #begin try for throwing lance
(gt, param8, 0),
(this_or_next_eq, param8, (itemkinds number of -3 throwing lance in throwing mode)), #An alternative these throwing lance checks is check if WSE operation item_get_weapon_length returns 120 on param8, since there are no other missiles that are 120 length.
...
(eq, param8, (itemkinds number of +3 throwing lance in throwing mode)),
(assign, :should_multiply, 2),
(try_end),
(gt, :should_multiply, 0),
(try_begin),
(eq, :should_multiply, 1),
#do some math on the trigger result based on whatever formula is determined for long spear/pike
(else_try),
(eq, :should_multiply, 2),
#do some math on the trigger result based on whatever formula is determined for throwing lance
(try_end),
(try_end),
-
Yeah, checking for length was what was discussed. Very nice.
-
Yeah, checking for length was what was discussed. Very nice.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
-
Now, I would assume you can declare your own bonus against horses modifier, but I haven't exactly done that. I've also no idea if that would be the type of thing that would cause problems with chadz's compiler, assuming it would work.
At the very least, we can probably use the weapon length stat, in conjunction with the item type on the check, to be able to give those items additional damage.
-
Heh, wasn't expecting you guys to use the same kludgy logic.
I also thought about using specific abundance values for special item behavior, since cRPG doesn't have a single player mode.
-
I say no, this game shouldn't be about X countering Y, it should be based on the skills of the player and cooperation of the team. Pikes and long spears are already very effective at rearing horses albeit at fairly low damage. Also literally any spearlike weapon should be able to kill a horse riding at full gallop, it isn't specific to the pike simply for being longer.
-
Well, I agree that a solid stab from any spear-like weapon (or heck, any sturdy pointy weapon) should do massive damage to cavalry, but at the moment it doesn't really function like that. Long spear/pike perform particularly badly since they only have a stab, and their length usually requires some exaggerated, easily down-blockable wobbling to do damage vs armored cavalry.
I see this idea as more of a slight correction for that since bracing polearms isn't a mechanic, I wouldn't expect the horses to explode like they do with spikes, just a bit more appropriate damage than the usual glances. The OP might have something different in mind though.
-
Nice idea. Could give a role to 2d and 1d polearms without making them any stronger against infantry. Should definitely include the English Bill at least
-
Nice idea. Could give a role to 2d and 1d polearms without making them any stronger against infantry. Should definitely include the English Bill at least
This. I hardly never see any pike or long spears in EU anymore.
This would be a good way of making them useful without being a pain in the ass (e.g. lolstabbing around walls, friends, etc.)
Also since Tydeus added the extra length to the thrusting ready animation (in patch 0.3.2.1 (http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-3-2-1/)) it has been a lot harder to rear horses with polearms because you simple cannot stab before you are run down and bumped.
Giving long polearms (or just pikes and long spears) a buff as anti-cav weapons would actually serve as a justifiable in relation to the above often forgotten nerf
-
They do already. Speed bonus.
BTW can we make impossible to hide pikes in ground, walls, rocks, ghostly travelling through everything?
I know that 2hs and other poles do the same, but, wait, pikes and longspears are just too long to leave them alone.
-
Item numbers aren't static in crpg. If a new item gets added, it throws others out of place. This is because a new module_items.py file is generated at patch time based on the google sheet we use where we have a specific sheet for each particular item type, as well as modifiers and additional penalties. Still, its pretty easy to make do with the weapon length and itp_type_thrown as checks and of course, making sure you're not giving the bonus to lancers. The only issue, is deciding what length should start getting the bonus. At the moment I'm thinking greaterthan 160 (I see no problem with the scythe, fauchard or long voulge getting the bonus, but I'm not sure the glaive should.) Unfortunately this length would keep the War Spear and other short spears from receiving the bonus.
Edit: Pretty easy to script, just needs tested. ATM I have all throwing to receive a 20% damage bonus against horses.
-
No way to code it for hoplites as well then? I think it will be a good update, but Ashwood pike would be undoubtedly the best hoplite weapon then
-
No way to code it for hoplites as well then? I think it will be a good update, but Ashwood pike would be undoubtedly the best hoplite weapon then
Could check the user's animation, but then if you weren't using the shorter polearm in hoplite mode you would no longer get the bonus, not that this is necessarily a bad thing.
-
Initially I was thinking of only doing one of two things. Giving it to the 200+ length (Bamboo, Long Spear, Pike) or to the 185 and longer weapons (the above, plus the longest bi-directions, which also happen to be the most thrust oriented.)
-
How about having the bonus only apply when the piker is standing still? To simulate spear bracing?
-
Initially I was thinking of only doing one of two things. Giving it to the 200+ length (Bamboo, Long Spear, Pike) or to the 185 and longer weapons (the above, plus the longest bi-directions, which also happen to be the most thrust oriented.)
Couldn't it include the English Bill? Usually not too bothered about realism but wouldnt make much sense to not include that
-
Couldn't it include the English Bill? Usually not too bothered about realism but wouldnt make much sense to not include that
Right, but if we're including the English Bill, we should probably include the Partisan as well. If we're including those, which are fairly overhead dominant, shouldn't we include the slightly shorter, more thrust oriented Ashwood and Awl Pike as well? This is how I came to "greaterthan 160 length" which is what I am currently using.
-
Eh, I'm really only fond of it for the long spear/pike so they're used over those shorter weapons with a task they're supposed to be excelling at. They are only mediocre at it right now because of low damage and weakness up-close against cav that can bump stab/slash. Same for throwing lances, since you'll use a good amount of your ammo before taking a horse down, making jarids/throwing spears better at the task that the throwing lance should excel at.
-
Pikes and long spears are doing just fine in Strat last night's battle was a testament to that. What this means is, when used properly with a team, its a great weapon. When used on its own for soloing, its not. You shouldn't buff something because people refuse to use teamwork on battle. If this means they are essentially a Strat only weapon, I won't lose any sleep over it.
-
No to the Bamboo Spear? It's often considered to be too long for anything other than anti-cav, it's certainly not reliable in melee fights.
There's always the possibility to having differing degrees of bonus damage to horses, the bonuses don't all have to be the same.
Pikes and long spears are doing just fine in Strat last night's battle was a testament to that. What this means is, when used properly with a team, its a great weapon. When used on its own for soloing, its not. You shouldn't buff something because people refuse to use teamwork on battle. If this means they are essentially a Strat only weapon, I won't lose any sleep over it.
I think what you mean to say is that in strat random players (those not using a pike) are generally able to achieve more against a single reared horse, than on battle. This shouldn't come as a surprise though, often on strat everyone is bunched together closely(this doesn't necessarily mean more teamwork) and there are usually enough pikemen on, to spread throughout the team so there's never one far away.
This isn't just your normal case of increased effectiveness as item count increases either (like with archery, throwing, cavalry, and somewhat crossbows). Unlike ranged or cav, only having a single pikeman for a full team, won't really grant you much (as an anti-cav weapon), even if the other team only has one cav player. 30+ players simply span too much ground for one pikeman to cover, due the cav's mobility. Furthermore, it's not as though the pikeman often(or even can) rear and kill a horse from full to dead all on its own, especially against any of the better horses. More damage vs horses won't really change too much to be honest, especially if it's true that as things stand now, the pikeman by himself is mostly useless.
I don't think this argument really holds up, especially considering the other arguments I could have made. After reading your post I had to take a step back to gather my thoughts as I felt there were so many things wrong with it (still, it's a seemingly logical thought, although obviously biased.)
-
Perhaps. I've always thought the bamboo spear was a great weapon with 91 speed (faster than most others that long) and usability with shield that makes it even longer and provides protection all at a cheap price.
Edit: To clarify, I think the speed difference by itself aids it enough where it doesn't need it. I wouldn't mind if it still has it, though, since its power is weak regardless.
-
No to the Bamboo Spear? It's often considered to be too long for anything other than anti-cav, it's certainly not reliable in melee fights.
There's always the possibility to having differing degrees of bonus damage to horses, the bonuses don't all have to be the same.
I think what you mean to say is that in strat random players (those not using a pike) are generally able to achieve more against a single reared horse, than on battle. This shouldn't come as a surprise though, often on strat everyone is bunched together closely(this doesn't necessarily mean more teamwork) and there are usually enough pikemen on, to spread throughout the team so there's never one far away.
This isn't just your normal case of increased effectiveness as item count increases either (like with archery, throwing, cavalry, and somewhat crossbows). Unlike ranged or cav, only having a single pikeman for a full team, won't really grant you much (as an anti-cav weapon), even if the other team only has one cav player. 30+ players simply span too much ground for one pikeman to cover, due the cav's mobility. Furthermore, it's not as though the pikeman often(or even can) rear and kill a horse from full to dead all on its own, especially against any of the better horses. More damage vs horses won't really change too much to be honest, especially if it's true that as things stand now, the pikeman by himself is mostly useless.
I don't think this argument really holds up, especially considering the other arguments I could have made. After reading your post I had to take a step back to gather my thoughts as I felt there were so many things wrong with it (still, it's a seemingly logical thought, although obviously biased.)
Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload. There are tons of good choices now. The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander. There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle. Ramza and Dach come to mind. Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.
-
Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload. There are tons of good choices now. The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander. There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle. Ramza and Dach come to mind. Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.
Yeah, longspears are too strong vs cav because they allow players to stop a horse so that they can get off a Super-Duper-Wombo-Combo with one of those OP-vs-Ponies, backup weapons.
-
Yeah, longspears are too strong vs cav because they allow players to stop a horse so that they can get off a Super-Duper-Wombo-Combo with one of those OP-vs-Ponies, backup weapons.
I'm not saying they're too strong. I'm saying they're strong enough, but have to be used correctly. They aren't for heroes.
-
Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload. There are tons of good choices now. The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander. There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle. Ramza and Dach come to mind. Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.
Whenever i rear a horse i never drop my long spear to pull out a secondary wep to kill it i just aim for the head, only time i ever drop my long spear is when I'm in either a duel or a bad 2 or more vs 1 where there is a shielder or somone faster than me or something like that
-
i don't think long spears/pikes should do double damage to horses until it's changed so that you don't get reared from ridiculous angles that are basically horizontal to you (which i'm sure is impossible to fix), obviously the pike/long spear are the biggest offenders of this just due to their length.
i'd rather every melee weapon do double damage to horses than just specific ones for arbitrary reasons.
Although the long spear/pike probably deserve to be made Balanced again because they're not overly used except in Strategus and I don't think they're even good then.
-
i don't think long spears/pikes should do double damage to horses until it's changed so that you don't get reared from ridiculous angles that are basically horizontal to you (which i'm sure is impossible to fix), obviously the pike/long spear are the biggest offenders of this just due to their length.
i'd rather every melee weapon do double damage to horses than just specific ones for arbitrary reasons.
Although the long spear/pike probably deserve to be made Balanced again because they're not overly used except in Strategus and I don't think they're even good then.
Lol. This hardly never happens.
Though what does happen (alot more often) is that the shield of the rider covers the horses body from getting stabbed, resulting in no rear.
Honestly most of the time when it looks like the horse is reared from a weird angle it is because of lagg/desync.
@San:
I dont quite see why bamboo spear shouldn't get the extra damage to horses.
Realisticly speaking (though that doesnt matter much), it is very similar to longspear/pike.
But what does the speed of the spear have to do with whether or not it should get the buff?
TBH it doesnt really matter to me with the bamboo spear. I was just curious :D