cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 04:13:54 pm

Title: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 04:13:54 pm
This bullshit has been here for a lot of time, and I still see people abusing the shit out of it, so please add a tag for daggers "cannot take with a shield".

It looks so realistic to have this retarded "feature" right now, really...
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2014, 04:22:46 pm
Yes, please, all daggers, "unusable with shield".
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 06, 2014, 04:23:15 pm
Yes!
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Tzar on August 06, 2014, 04:47:57 pm
Why?? Your whinny sobs..... god i hate this community...

PS: Im not a dagger weilding Bumbo tones kinda dude, but why crush even more builds in cRPG then all ready crushed??
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: San on August 06, 2014, 05:01:56 pm
It was proposed in the unbalance forums several months ago, but it couldn't obtain enough votes.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Hirlok on August 06, 2014, 05:05:52 pm
as much as these daggermy old friends molest me:

They still give me chuckles. So: no.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 06, 2014, 05:10:59 pm
What about higher requirements for daggers? The only thing that is shit is rediculously high ath bundle of stickss.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 05:16:27 pm
It was proposed in the unbalance forums several months ago, but it couldn't obtain enough votes.

If people want this bullshit, they should go in super merc mod to abuse the shit out of dagger + shield and steal money from players.

Please San, just test any dagger +3 with a shield, with any agi build, and tell me it ain't op. I killed tincans in 5 hits with a rondel +0, PLEASE, where is the realism, tell me.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: San on August 06, 2014, 05:22:21 pm
I voted yes to removing dagger with shield, but I don't think it's OP. You can get a similar results by hiltslashing with other fast 1hers. I think it waters down shieldless dagger builds by having to keep them somewhat nerfed in power.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Macropus on August 06, 2014, 05:29:34 pm
Why remove something that isn't even slightly OP?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Panos_ on August 06, 2014, 05:34:24 pm
Algarn is mad because daggermy old friends chase archers most of the time   :lol:
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Switchtense on August 06, 2014, 06:10:05 pm
It is a super annoying build, but they die with 1 hit, so not really OP.

The most annoying dagger shielders are the ones actually good at playing that build. The majority sucks badly and beating them takes little to no time or effort.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Porthos on August 06, 2014, 06:11:38 pm
Okay, remove the shields but then give them ability to use 2 knives. One in each hand. Just imagine how kewl it would be:
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Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Phew on August 06, 2014, 06:15:58 pm
Make a ~ 6/30 STF, get a +3 dagger of any sort and a decent shield, and go on the duel server. You will likely outperform your main character.

The only situation that causes serious problems is people that are really good at kicks. Otherwise, you will kill people in roughly the same number of swings as you would if you were 21/18 with a longsword; pierce plus speed bonus from high athletics does insane damage.

It's not a particularly viable build in battle or siege though, since you will mostly die from teamhits/random projectiles/etc. But it is EZmode for duel server.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 06:35:18 pm
It's not a particularly viable build in battle or siege though, since you will mostly die from teamhits/random projectiles/etc. But it is EZmode for duel server.

What ? 9/27 or 9/30 is enough to rape anything living on the server.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Jack1 on August 06, 2014, 06:58:05 pm
I rarely have problems with a dagger guy in a 1v1. The only problem is when they have friends or tight areas.

Let them have their shields.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Phew on August 06, 2014, 07:00:52 pm
What ? 9/27 or 9/30 is enough to rape anything living on the server.

Think about how much of your incoming damage comes from horse bumps (friendly and enemy), teamhits, and random projectiles. Now multiply that by 2-4 (depending on how much armor you wear), while reducing your hit points by a half to a third. Then think about how quickly you would die every round. Whenever I encounter these dagger/shield agi guys on siege, I just hit them with neutral shield nudges; it only takes 2-3 to kill them with my 21b nudges.

The most terrifying dagger user in NA is Bendak, who has nearly 70 body armor (and doesn't use a shield). He gets almost all his kills by holding a stab while running away to get enemies to follow him, then quickly turns around to unleash a held head strike with max speed bonus. It does more damage than a Great Maul usually. He is always near the top of the scoreboard as it is, if he used a shield (buckler works best), he would drown in tears.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 07:11:43 pm
Generally, if I get bumped while having 9+ athletics , I'm doing mistakes. The only bad thing with those builds are teamhits, otherwise, stay behind your team, and rush to steal kills, get valour, and enjoy being an annoying prick. The worst is they don't even pay repairs, so, they gain like 50k for some hours played.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Macropus on August 06, 2014, 07:19:17 pm
Daggerwhores are easy to spam. Yes. It is easy to spam them, because of their low reach.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 07:20:21 pm
Daggerwhores are easy to spam. Yes. It is easy to spam them, because of their low reach.

What do you think I'm doing everytime ?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Porthos on August 06, 2014, 07:22:00 pm
What do you think I'm doing everytime ?
QQing? :)
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Macropus on August 06, 2014, 07:22:17 pm
What do you think I'm doing everytime ?
Fine, what's the problem with them then? Why do you think they should be removed?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 07:26:15 pm
Fine, what's the problem with them then? Why do you think they should be removed?

They pay no repair at all, kill most people in 5 hits max, what else ? Oh, and they can take a shield to protect themselves from arrows and ganks.


Also, yes, I'm QQing a lot, but some things are serious in my tears.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Kafein on August 06, 2014, 07:27:26 pm
get a shield lol
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Macropus on August 06, 2014, 07:30:16 pm
They pay no repair at all, kill most people in 5 hits max, what else ? Oh, and they can take a shield to protect themselves from arrows and ganks.


Also, yes, I'm QQing a lot, but some things are serious in my tears.
While this all is true, what is the problem exactly? If all above didn't make them OP, why are you complaining?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 06, 2014, 09:14:06 pm
The OP part is the fact they can kill you in three hits while paying nothing and get at the same time almost immune to ganks and arrows while they shouldn't even be able to block a melee hit without their shield (can't parry perk).

But nevermind, people prefer having BS stuff like bumpslash or dagger with shield in the game, I simply can't be arsed to talk with people that don't want over-powered shit in game, but don't realize this is exactly the OP stuff they don't want in this mod . Have fun abusing every retarded mechanics, since you like it.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Phew on August 06, 2014, 10:55:25 pm
Nerfing speed bonus would go a long way to fixing these builds.

Why do most daggers gain +4 damage at max loom? It's not like they do low damage relative to their cost to begin with.

Fuck you Every Agi-Whore Ever!

Infantry speed bonus definitely needs to be scaled down, at least for stabs. If I stab a guy with a knife, how fast I'm running isn't going to affect the severity of his stab wound.

The Rondel should get +4 pierce, since it doesn't have sideswings. But yeah, the other daggers shouldn't get such huge heirloom bonuses.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Kafein on August 06, 2014, 11:39:07 pm
The OP part is the fact they can kill you in three hits while paying nothing and get at the same time almost immune to ganks and arrows while they shouldn't even be able to block a melee hit without their shield (can't parry perk).

But nevermind, people prefer having BS stuff like bumpslash or dagger with shield in the game, I simply can't be arsed to talk with people that don't want over-powered shit in game, but don't realize this is exactly the OP stuff they don't want in this mod . Have fun abusing every retarded mechanics, since you like it.

U mad ? Cryin bcause you get pwned by ur countr. It's liek when peolpe cry about rnaged and I'm like "hello, ranged is the counter to everything, if u get killd by ranged get a shield lol". stop being so hyporictical!!!!!! get a shield u 2!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Krex on August 06, 2014, 11:42:33 pm
PLEASE, where is the realism, tell me.

How is it realistic to be unabled to take a dagger with shield?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Kafein on August 07, 2014, 12:00:37 am
The extremely limited and shitty-looking warband combat system is at it's worst with gimmick builds like dagger and shield. It looks awful.

The only way dagger and shield should be effective is in a shieldwall, but because of the warband combat system, the uselessness of shieldwalls in actual melee, and the speed of backpedalers forces dagger-shields to run around like Sonic the Hedgehog. Doesnt help that big steel shields dont require any strength.

How are dagger shielders unrealistic compared to all the bullshit going on everywhere ? They are as fast as you would expect, which is NOT the case of basically every single polearm and most melee weapons in general. You can't lolstab with a dagger because it's too short, can can't drag your attacks around because you don't have time to do so. You can't attack while backpedalling because you will miss. The only problem with daggers is that the extreme lack of reach forces the user to facehug its target, a situation in which problems with character collision and lag compensation (typically, your enemy teleports behind you) occur very frequently. However, this can happen with every weapon. Actually it's one of the least nonsensical playstyles around.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: MURDERTRON on August 07, 2014, 03:22:53 am
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-can%27t-be-used-with-shield-1-hand-weapons/msg901461/#msg901461

please steal more of my ideas
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 07, 2014, 07:24:13 am
just add the cut damage type on the dagger's stab and thats it
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Algarn on August 07, 2014, 09:21:21 am
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-can%27t-be-used-with-shield-1-hand-weapons/msg901461/#msg901461

please steal more of my ideas

It'd better to keep it up on your thread, mine can't work since I'm archer and considered as a jerk.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 07, 2014, 09:54:12 am
Since we are talking realism, lets nerf the shit out of daggers, I mean we are wearing mail, right! Puny daggers shouldnt be able to even slightly go through that, even the stabs, maybe except for the rondel, could need a nerf. Ofcourse in the name of realism. Cause realism

Anyways, just up the requirement will negate the biggest ath bundle of stickss
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Ulter on August 07, 2014, 10:00:42 am
Nothing unrealistic about using a shield with a dagger.
(click to show/hide)

About the animations though... how about reversing the grip on the daggers, like this :
(click to show/hide)
giving them pierce damage, and making them unable to use the usual 1h stab animation?
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 07, 2014, 10:05:47 am
Nothing unrealistic about using a shield with a dagger.
(click to show/hide)

About the animations though... how about reversing the grip on the daggers, like this :
(click to show/hide)
giving them pierce damage, and making them unable to use the usual 1h stab animation?
and 2h's are the same length as lances, right?  8-)

Cool idea about the animations
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Ulter on August 07, 2014, 10:16:17 am
Notice how this man isn't naked or running so fast he can run up the castle walls, circlejerk and stab his way to victory against 5 men who all hit each other instead of him.

The use of shield and dagger in a believable and manly way not possible with warband mechanics, so we're left with some retarded placeholder that pays lipservice to the fact that soldiers would sometimes use a dagger when hiding behind their massive shields and moving around the battlefield in a group.

That's why I suggested the animation change. That would make the dagger a viable option for very close quarters, or packed up group fights, but not so much for open field, or 1 vs 5 situations :P There is still the question if it would be possible to implement though
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: agweber on August 09, 2014, 11:03:06 pm
I saw a legitimate use of a dagger and shield just the other day. Dude was using a shield and long polearm and wouldn't have been able to attack fast enough against a spammer. He used quick draw to lose his weapon and pull out a dagger without taking the ridiculous amount of time required to pull out your sword. He then got a few counter strikes in which gave him time to grab a sword off of the ground without leaving himself open without his shield.

Anyway, my vote is no. I've been playing my ranged character more and more lately and I have seen these guys with crazy high athletics and shields coming after archers. I've got 68 1h wpf and could play plenty well against him. I wouldn't have been able to turn tail and run, but I can still stand and fight against them.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 12:54:14 am
It'd better to keep it up on your thread, mine can't work since I'm archer and considered as a jerk.

You are considered a jerk because you are being a hypocritical jerk. "Get a shield lol" is as valid in this situation as it is against ranged, yet for you "get a shield lol" seems to be an appropriate response to people questioning the status quo of ranged mechanics.
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: Simon_Templar on August 16, 2014, 01:25:32 pm
I cant actually agree that this gets removed. when i see the explosion of people who playing with longmauls or greatmauls. Because in fact it would leave yourself pretty much undefended against any kind of weapon. Because you can t block with that one. And i am not speak about crpg. When i would fight a guy with longmaul. I would avoide geting hit and then i would just hit him in the gaps of the armor. and because of the length and the big Steel end it would be really slow to swing.

Here a variation of polearms who actually existed in medieval times. Long maul is phantasm weapon. It didnt existed.

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.juniorgeneral.org%2Fdonated%2Falex%2Fmedweapons.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.genesismud.org%2Fforums%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D6%26t%3D1491%26start%3D20&h=422&w=675&tbnid=Hn6NptdeE-lWbM%3A&zoom=1&docid=7o7cHb-hm2QXVM&ei=VjzvU5jaIOqF4gTR2YHoAQ&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=432&page=1&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=0CC8QrQMwBQ

weird i dont see any long maul there.  :wink:
Title: Re: Remove the ability to take a dagger with a shield
Post by: vipere on August 16, 2014, 02:02:57 pm
...

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