cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: gazda on May 20, 2011, 05:15:02 pm
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adding few more great lances with different lenght that cant stab, for example 210, 245, 270 and make them retain couching position for very long time (maybe unlimited) if the speed is high enough,
and make the longer laces require more speed to couch
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Totaly agree with this. Couched great lance should out range stabbed heavy lance end of story
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I've been using it lately and it is pretty weak.
A heavy lance thrust out ranges it by a lot while being able to attack more and have better aim.
Also everyone in the game has the broken long spear which also our ranges it by a lot
Bring back the lance of compensation or whatever. Before it was OP because of length, but with the recient saturation of long range weapons I think it would be fine and offer and alternative to every horsey having to use a heavy lance just to compete.
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Yes i think the Great lance needs to be increased in Length. I use it over the heavy lance because i dont like stab cav. A lance is made to be couched that is how it is effective
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For a note from a cav clan.
GK tried something to see how effective it would be. Something many people think cavalry should do (rather than be ninja's).
We loaded up our heaviest horses (mostly mamluks), armour and great lances on the ruins map. About 40 people per side.
We formed in a line (about 10-15 cav), waited for the scattered enemy infantry who were engaged in the front and charged with couched lances on the flat section behind the gate house in front of the village.
The result was less than effective. If the great lance struck, it did minimal damage (why are they so weak?).
Most of the time the lances didn't hit, were easy to avoid and we got stopped by even a simple lolstab. When pretty much any weapon can stop a full charging, heavy armoured horse, then it doesn't work very well.
The majority of our kills were from charge damage (bumps) on people with poor health.
If people want cav to stop back stabbing, then something needs to be done when a fully armoured (very expensive), organised cavalry charge barely has any effect on a broken and disorganised infantry force. We actually got very few kills, however the enemy decided to camp and form a shield wall the next round from pure fear :P So it was effective from that pov. But GK has a few of the best lancers in the game, and even they were struggling to kill anything with a great lance.
If they are near useless even in a heavy cavalry charge of a large number, then something is badly wrong.
I know they were always OP in native, but now they seem pretty near useless. They are very much UP. The heavy lance is by far the better weapon, even in a heavy cav charge. Which makes little sense.
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We did a similar thing on NA yesterday with a organised cavalry charge across a bridge with plated charges and other heavy horse only about 6-7 of us. The pikes stopped us in our tracks and so did LOL stabers we managed to push through them but it was costly. The great lance is ok 1 on 1 because you can swing left on impack so as to disengage the horse head from the targets strike giving you a better reach advantage. In an organised cavalry charge you can only put the great lance out in front (because you have an organised formation) so you have the horses forequarters in front which decreases the overall reach. Organised cavalry charges are so much fun with the great lance but are very ineffective. The great lance length needs increasing.
I also think that there shuold be a small chance of pole arms not stopping cav dead in their tracks.
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The great lance length needs increasing.
I also think that there shuold be a small chance of pole arms not stopping cav dead in their tracks.
Agreed to both!
Maybe not for pikes. But certainly for other polearms and lolstabs.
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yeh, i tried the GL too and noticed the same thing. Not to mention the time between couches is really long. At the same time, heavy horses do very little charge damage against anyone in decent armor. I can get fully hit by a plated charger several times and walk away.
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I'm running a board and sword cav and start out each round with the GL. The couch timer isn't that bad in open maps where you can get to a flank and run a counter clockwise route. By the time you get back around for another attack the timer is up. Plus it keeps the lance on the right side of the horse and sticking out allowing for more effective attack length and a larger hitbox (almost a lolstab with a couched lance).
But that is pretty much the only way the GL is effective.
It can't be used on hilly maps as it is to hard to keep up couch speed. Heavy lance is fine with hills, just a little less damage from smaller speed bonus.
It can't be used in city maps as there isn't enough space to get a couch down. That is fine and to be expected though. HL is less effective in city maps because of the nerf to its turn radius but it is still usable at least.
It isn't all that effective verse other horses. As already posted the GL is out ranged by a stabbing HL so it will always lose that battle. The GL also can't attack while chasing another horse. Even if you do land a couch from behind they don't instant kill like they use to and the horse will still live. The GL is great for taking out plated chargers though as they are slow and a couch from the side will take it down in one hit but a HL could do that just as easily. That doesn't even take into the wacky hit boxes when attack from the side though.
I don't want the GL to be better then a HL but it needs some advantages. Increasing the range or making a new longer range couch only lance has a place in the game.
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i concur great lance is useless, I even have better use of jousting lance when trying to buttcouch tincans
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Do it.
Bump.
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people oftne complain that its a 1 hit kill, but you can actually absorb quite alot of the damage by just running away with a high agi character :).
Tried it today, medium armored guy can survive a direct hit from a +2 courser at full speed if he runs away from it.
Also, can couchable-onlies be 1slot? they are totally useless on the ground.
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I fully agree to a buff of great lances. Or at least having decent couched-only weapons.
Currently the heavy lance is simply superior because even if you indeed want to couch it, you can, and as the reach is ridiculous anyway, you don't really care about it.
So if and when we will have "usable" great lances, please don't allow other lances to couch. That won't hurt them much anyway.
Also, I think that adding a random factor to the cav stopping isn't needed. Sometimes people that try to stop me with a polearm miss for no reason (weapon going through) and furthermore I doubt anyone would ever try to stop cav again if there's a chance to fail with the weapon they use.
AFAIK currently when you use the great lance you forward reach goes barely further than the horse head, which is honestly retarded.
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I just started char using horse and great lance. :)
It is acceptable that I must run from any horse one on one and have no chance killing him if hes aware of me. But if we go head on and I kill his horse and he still kill me with light lance at the same time (twice today) thats really weird. Unless it has 300 reach its nonsence it cant be stabbed. Making it long wouldnt do no harm as any horseman with melee weapon can dispatch such a lancer easily and if infantry want to survive it cant just be running around in the middle of a field. It would make it good for such a charge in formation maybe even against cavalry but almost useless in many other cases. (But there should be one or two really long pikes able to outreach it anytime so well organized inf allways has the advantage)
Also any horse from plated charger higher shouldnt be stopped by that mild poking like in WB. Maybe pikes could be braceable with little reach penalty while kneeling so that a person staying in place stucks it into ground and can turn around freely but once he moves he must once again retain position. If its point hits rider or horse it deals same damage as if couched maybe. 10 pikemen in circle could be almost impregnable like this. :)
Also if couched lancing could kill horse and rider at the same time once again it could be great. Its BS that some sword can cut both armoured horse and man in half but lance can spike only horse.
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Yes I aggree
Make the great lance longer than all other weapons accept the pike. This inludes stabed weapons. I use the GL only because of the RPG factor I dont like the look or feel of stab lancing even though it is more effective.
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BRING BACK THE LANCE OF COMPENSATION!
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HELL YEAH
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BRING BACK THE LANCE OF COMPENSATION!
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BRING BACK THE LANCE OF COMPENSATION!
Agreed
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Yes but i think LoC should out range every thing else accept a pike. This includes the long spare that is stabbed.
At the moment If you want to play couch lance cav you are only viable by being nija,
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Yes but i think LoC should out range every thing else accept a pike. This includes the long spare that is stabbed.
At the moment If you want to play couch lance cav you are only viable by being nija,
I think a 270 length LoC could work. I'm not sure what the length of a stabbed LS is but they would still have the advantage because of horse length.
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no, it should be atleast 300, couse if the lance is 300 , you wont get full 300 usable legnht, you will get less, so its
lenght of lance-(the part behind elbow+the part from elbow to horses front end)=actual usable lenght
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Bumping because i want a bigger lance :(
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Score of my post with the suggestion has been reset to 0(it had many +, zero -), maybe its a forum bug, or maybe its a sign from upper force :wink:
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I added a +1 again :D
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The animation shows while you couche a lance you use a shield as protection but the game think the shield is down, head-on attacks with a couched lance or great lance = suicide, another brocken system.
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Really? I thought the shield was actually blocking like it should. Man this sux
Bring back the LoC
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I dont know what the Lance of compensation was exactly, but I was about to start a thread about couching and great lances.
The great lance is very weak, and couching is both really uneffective and impratical to use
Cons :
-very easy to dodge when aware of it, and dangerous to use in that situation
-you are helpless at close range
-cannot be used on foot
-takes 2 slots
-loses 100% of the time against heavy lance no matter what ! (biggest issue, its both unrealistic and making the item worthless)
-difficult to aim and dangerous to allies
-big cooldown
-needs speed, open map and flat ground
-slow animation
-only type of defense you can have is a shield, and it doesnt work when couching
-two slots
-no stab animation
Pros :
-doesnt need any wpf to be "effective"
-low cost
-cant be parried
-smash shields
-damage when it hits in the right conditions
Compared to heavy lance the only advantage is : 40 more couching lengh, and its only relevent against infantry
I m fine with almost all the cons, lots of them makes perfect sense and are needed for balance reasons. It should stay to difficult to use and situational. But right now the only reason to use a great lance is for roleplaying, it should at the very least offer one edge on a particular field. And adding a bit of trouble to polearm lancers would not hurt in my opinion, since they are king in almost all fields.
Suggestions :
-make the great lance or other added couching weapons long enough to put heavy lance and other polearm cavalry at risk, but short enough to be countered by timed pikes and long spear stabs
and/or :
-make the animation last as long as you stay fast enough to maintain it
-add various lances with various ranges (but still longer than the one offered at the moment) with different couching speed animation
-lower the couching cooldown
-raise the item prices (prevents every 1wpf user to use it all the time and makes wpf at least a bit relevent to the weapon usage)
-make them one slot, 2h cavalry will be able to use them with a shield if they can, and polearm cavalry who want to use them will be able to keep an infantry weapon (at the expense of the shield).
-make the shield raise work
-remove the couching option from other lances ?
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I agree, great lance needs to be looked at. It really needs some more length to even be viable anymore.
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I agree, great lance needs to be looked at. It really needs some more length to even be viable anymore.
+1
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The great lance is really only effective on a courser, the speed prevents infantry from moving out of the way and drastically increases the damage, still not in the 1-hit area of yesteryear once your armor exceeds 60 or so unless you hit them in the head, which does do double damage similar to arrows and other melee weapons.
Using the great lance on a rouncey or cata-type heavy horse doesn't do enough damage and is easy to dodge, due the low speed of the horses and slow maneuvering of those horses.
Choosing the great lance over a stabbing lance also severely reduces your effectiveness against enemy cav. 1-1 it may be slightly weaker but when faced with multiple opponents you are at a tremendous disadvantage and there isn't really any pro to offset these cons.
Cons:
Low damage (very reliant on speed), low accuracy (easy to dodge), poor ability to fight other cav
Pros:
Mostly unblockable (can be chambered and blocked with a shield), out ranges most infantry weapons, cheap
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The great lance is really only effective on a courser, the speed prevents infantry from moving out of the way and drastically increases the damage, still not in the 1-hit area of yesteryear once your armor exceeds 60 or so unless you hit them in the head, which does do double damage similar to arrows and other melee weapons.
Using the great lance on a rouncey or cata-type heavy horse doesn't do enough damage and is easy to dodge, due the low speed of the horses and slow maneuvering of those horses.
Choosing the great lance over a stabbing lance also severely reduces your effectiveness against enemy cav. 1-1 it may be slightly weaker but when faced with multiple opponents you are at a tremendous disadvantage and there isn't really any pro to offset these cons.
Cons:
Low damage (very reliant on speed), low accuracy (easy to dodge), poor ability to fight other cav
Pros:
Mostly unblockable (can be chambered and blocked with a shield), out ranges most infantry weapons, cheap
Those are exactly the reasons I always use it and I mostly use the Warhorse. It's much less usefull than the H. Lance in almost all ways except when fighting infantry. People aren't really used to it so they try the normal "stab with a fucking long sword" tactic against it, which means I kill them without them ever touching me (because of the length). People jumping into a couched lance is always hilarious too.
Also a con you forgot about. You can easily drop it when you fight archers adn finish them off with your 1h/shield or 2h or LHB or whatever slicing weapon you use. I always laugh when they pick it up, trying to stab me, only to find out it's a couch-only weapon xD
But really, it is way too underpowered compared to the heavy/normal/light lances. I don't want it to have increased damage, a stab or longer range, though, I just want it to be 1 slot instead of 2. It really wont imbalance the game and with the "make high tier horses 1 slot" it would REALLY balance cav.
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Definitely don't want stab added to it.
All that needs to happen is that the range is increased so that it out ranges all other stabbed lances and pole arms except the Pike.
+1
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Also a con you forgot about. You can easily drop it when you fight archers adn finish them off with your 1h/shield or 2h or LHB or whatever slicing weapon you use. I always laugh when they pick it up, trying to stab me, only to find out it's a couch-only weapon xD
Oh yeah, I forgot about this and I do it all the time, but it is definitely a pro.
Don't have to worry about your lance coming back to bite you in the ass if you switch to a sidearm.