cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Palurgee on July 11, 2014, 02:43:12 am

Title: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Palurgee on July 11, 2014, 02:43:12 am
Horse archers tend to piss off a lot of people and give them a hard time in the mod. Here are a few nerf suggestions to make horse archers less of a pain. I think at least 1 should be considered.

1.) Horse archery requires the rider to let go of the reins and put both hands on the bow. While cRPG doesn't have reins, the point remains that riding while shooting a bow is a difficult task. Suggestion: all horses require 1 additional riding skill if using a bow. This means you can still mount the horse, but the bow will be sheathed if you lack sufficient riding skill. If this is considered too punitive, a damage or accuracy reduction if riding skill is insufficient could be considered instead.

2.) In a similar vein as the previous suggestion, a rider is more unstable while not holding the reins. So, horse archers take greater damage when their bows are drawn (some low percentage, 33 or so).

3.) The angle at which the archer is facing away from the front of the horse effects the accuracy of the bow. So, if you are looking as far backwards as you can, your accuracy would be greatly reduced compared to when you are shooting directly forward. See this Wikipedia artcile on the Parthian shot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot)

4.) Accuracy with a bow is reduced if not using a stirrup (see my stirrup suggestion here: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/stirrups/new/#new (http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/stirrups/new/#new)

Please do not move to chamber of tears.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Thryn on July 11, 2014, 02:48:18 am
Good suggestions, probably not the easiest thing to implement, all of them at once is too detrimental to class; I like 3 the best.

+1

inb4 chamburofteers
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Noodlenrice on July 11, 2014, 02:59:56 am
Great ways to approach HA problem instead of saying, "Remove the class."
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: DumpsterNerd on July 11, 2014, 06:03:45 pm
Great ways to approach HA problem instead of saying, "Remove the class."

Are we saying that's no longer on the table?  Cause I still think it should be on the table.


That being said, +1.  I like the suggestions 1 and 2 a lot.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: the real god emperor on July 12, 2014, 07:44:43 pm
Only problem with archers or horse archers is that amount of arrows is ridicilously too many*, reducing arrow amount would be a realistic nerf to both archers and horse archers.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Thryn on July 12, 2014, 08:35:47 pm
Only problem with archers or horse archers is that amount of arrows is ridicilously too much, reducing arrow amount would be a realistic nerf to both archers and horse archers.

ive said this like 800 times

pls implement
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Herezy92 on July 16, 2014, 09:48:13 am
Here another great idea made by Raylin :

As the title say, i got an idea to nerf horses archers without nerfing the archers on foot.
The idea is simple: adding a secondary mode to bow who are usable on horses.

In exemple, for the Nomad bow, i add a secondary mode and make the primary mode unusable on horse. If a player mount an horse, he was automaticly in secondary mode.

Quote
["nomad_bow",         "Nomad Bow",
[("nomad_bow",0),("nomad_bow_case", ixmesh_carry)],
itp_type_bow|itp_merchandise|itp_primary|itp_two_handed|itp_cant_use_on_horseback|itp_next_item_as_melee,
itcf_shoot_bow|itcf_carry_bowcase_left|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,
101 ,
weight(2.4)|difficulty(2)|spd_rtng(62)|shoot_speed(48)|thrust_damage(21 ,  cut),imodbits_bow ],


["ha_nomad_bow",         "Nomad Bow",
[("nomad_bow",0),("nomad_bow_case", ixmesh_carry)],
itp_type_bow|itp_merchandise|itp_primary|itp_two_handed,
itcf_shoot_bow|itcf_carry_bowcase_left|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,
90 ,
weight(2.4)|difficulty(4)|spd_rtng(55)|shoot_speed(40)|thrust_damage(18 ,  cut),imodbits_bow ],

In blue is the primary mode, usable only on foot.
In green is the secondary mode for ha with other item stats.
"itp_cant_use_on_horseback" set the primary mode unusable on horse.
"itp_next_item_as_melee" define the next item in the script as secondary mode.

Theses values are just for the exemple but with some testing and somes tweaks, i'm sure it can be good.
And it can also work for hx  :twisted:

What people think about that ?
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 17, 2014, 10:00:59 pm
Would it just be possible to drastically lower the maneuverability of a horse while drawing a bow? 
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Senni__Ti on July 18, 2014, 12:36:53 am
Here another great idea made by Raylin :

In blue is the primary mode, usable only on foot.
In green is the secondary mode for ha with other item stats.
"itp_cant_use_on_horseback" set the primary mode unusable on horse.
"itp_next_item_as_melee" define the next item in the script as secondary mode.

Theses values are just for the exemple but with some testing and somes tweaks, i'm sure it can be good.
And it can also work for hx  :twisted:

What people think about that ?

Unfortunately this wouldn't work, the unusable on horseback on the primary would stop you from being able to put it in your hands, so you wouldn't be able to toggle to the secondary without dismounting :/.

Unless WSE added it, I don't think you can make people spawn with the secondary mode.

Would it just be possible to drastically lower the maneuverability of a horse while drawing a bow? 

You could do, but it'd be tricky.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on July 18, 2014, 01:45:34 am
You could have some sort of agent animation check instead of ti_on_weapon_attack if you want the penalty to be during the draw, since that triggers on arrow release.

A temporary penalty to riding skill (1 or 2 points) would function better than agent_horse_speed_factor for maneuverability changes.

LMB check is a bit exploitable -- People could just reassign attack to something else.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Senni__Ti on July 18, 2014, 02:26:21 am
You could have some sort of agent animation check instead of ti_on_weapon_attack if you want the penalty to be during the draw, since that triggers on arrow release.

A temporary penalty to riding skill (1 or 2 points) would function better than agent_horse_speed_factor for maneuverability changes.

LMB check is a bit exploitable -- People could just reassign attack to something else.

Yeah, another reason why I prefer the example I made :p.

If I did an animation check, then it would have to be a constant loop of checks. Not very good CPU wise. (not sure if there is WSE magic that could fix this problem)
Or did you mean in conjunction with the trigger I used?

EDIT:

Just remembered CRPG uses 1.14X so no speed modifiers :(
Would have to modify the riding skill then. (Unless there is a WSE equiv)
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: San on July 23, 2014, 08:00:02 pm
Nothing's really happening with WSE any time soon. With my limited knowledge, there could be a riding penalty based on character equipment and attributes. I have no idea about triggers that are possible without WSE, though.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Thryn on July 24, 2014, 07:13:26 pm
Ya know that one mod that makes horses move slower depending on the damage they take?

I say why not. For each quarter of health lost, the horse should lose 4 speed. (lol look at donkey speed)
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: kooktar on September 11, 2014, 05:13:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8M00PRbI3c

Everyone seems to QQ about the balance of 1v1. This IS a team game. Horse archery is strong for a reason, it was OP in real life as it is in this game for all the reasons everyone is QQing about. Grab a shield, clump up as a group, stand next to pikers.... many ways a team can counter horse archery.

If you wanna stroke your epeen and complain about 1v1 balance, CMP should take down all servers but the official duel servers.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 11, 2014, 06:59:25 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8M00PRbI3c

Everyone seems to QQ about the balance of 1v1. This IS a team game. Horse archery is strong for a reason, it was OP in real life as it is in this game for all the reasons everyone is QQing about. Grab a shield, clump up as a group, stand next to pikers.... many ways a team can counter horse archery.

If you wanna stroke your epeen and complain about 1v1 balance, CMP should take down all servers but the official duel servers.

By your logic getting  run over by a horse should kill you, but we all know what's realistic isn't always good for gameplay.

Shields and pikes are not counters.  The HA has no reason to get close to shielders nor pikers, so it's not a counter.  Perhaps deterrent, but not a counter.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: _Tak_ on September 12, 2014, 03:17:24 pm
nerfing HA but not Cav will mess up the balance and it will only end up making Cav more OP except mounted ranged. Mounted ranged is very much the only class that can counter Lancer/1H Cav beside foot ranged. HA is fine as it is , doesn't need a nerf or anything. people who is whining for HA nerf is definitely infantry class. nerfing a class because you don't like it is just retarded. In real life the power of the bow and the accuracy with which the Mongols could shoot it from horseback made them an almost unstoppable power during invasion of mongols. They owns literally everyone especially knights.

Firing high-powered composite bows from horseback. Not only were they fast-moving, but they could kill you from 100 yards away. That's tough to counter no matter how well-organized your forces are. HA are OP, they rode up, shot arrows at you then rode off. pick smaller units caught in the open and tear them to pieces

if you are going to nerf HA nerf all Cav as well otherwise its going to be a very unbalanced Cav game.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 03:53:27 pm
nerfing HA but not Cav will mess up the balance and it will only end up making Cav more OP except mounted ranged. Mounted ranged is very much the only class that can counter Lancer/1H Cav beside foot ranged. HA is fine as it is , doesn't need a nerf or anything. people who is whining for HA nerf definitely infantry class. nerfing a class because you don't like it is just retarded. In real life the power of the bow and the accuracy with whihc the Mongols could shoot it from horseback made them an almost unstoppable power during invasion of mongols. They owns literally everyone especially knights.

Firing high-powered composite bows from horseback. Not only were they fast-moving, but they could kill you from 100 yards away. That's tough to counter no matter how well-organized your forces are. HA are OP, they rode up, shot arrows at you then rode off. pick smaller units caught in the open and tear them to pieces

if you are going to nerf HA nerf all Cav as well otherwise its going to be a very unbalanced Cav game.

Melee cav have already been nerfed into the ground.  Any further nerfs will just be considered a nerf to teamwork.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Admerius on September 12, 2014, 04:26:39 pm
I think that nerfing is not the right way to go.

_Tak_ summarized it very well.

The biggest problem with HA is the Deathmatchy nature of Battle maps, the victory conditions favors HA/HX(not HT read: too low ammo)

HA is in fact nerfed too much as it is, even though I hate them and feel like going up against a D2 iron golem made by an ith sword... I still think that they are nerfed too hard.

A dedicated level 25 HA build should be able to ride by a stationary target and hit a head from 3 meter range at full speed using yumi with 95% accuracy. Now it feels like a shotgun... my current HA alt "Baka_no_jutsu" is currently lvl 30 and a yumi+3 HA from a steppe horse+0.

I would tweak battle map victory conditions... to something like this:

-When there are 3:00 left on map and if one side has three times as many players alive= victory for that team.

This should stop the delaying aspect of HA/HX which I find the worst part of their "OPness"
Sadly, this will kill one man end round heroics...
But will add realism: The last few players surrenders/retreats(read: "Fleeing in panic and oblivious to the world")

Oh and last note: Buff Cav, ALL cav... and decrease pike & board shield costs.
Title: Re: Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers
Post by: Siiem on September 13, 2014, 12:07:08 am
I find it funny, these threads still exist.

I imagine this is chadz.