cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:20:56 pm

Title: Random question of the week
Post by: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:20:56 pm
Okay, I was there thinking, but how did actual medieval elite knights/commanders and generals survived battles back in medieval era?
Lol take for example in crpg no matter how strong you are, one round you will get hit and killed, not talking about some random flying arrow.
So the big question is how. Luck? Very strong plate armor?

Imagine being in middle of something like this
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Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: polkafranzi on April 02, 2014, 05:27:29 pm
enemy didn't use macros back then.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: BlueKnight on April 02, 2014, 05:30:18 pm
Quote from: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:20:56 pm
Okay, I was there thinking, but how did actual medieval elite knights/commands and generals survived battles back in medieval era?
Lol take for example in crpg no matter how strong you are, you will get hit and killed, not talking about some random flying arrow.
So the big question is how. Luck? Very strong plate armor?
Sell important guys to Ransom brokers. Ramun the slave trader will give you only 50 denars for whoever you sell. May it be a 'vaegir knight' or just a 'looter', you will get same money. Ransom brokers will pay accordingly to the worth of their lives and if you catch King Yaroglek, his faction may pay you really well for him. Why would you kill him then?

It's an example from native single-player but I hope you can see the connection with rl medieval here. Kings/Leaders/Important people don't just brainlessly charge with 1st line so the chances of killing them by a mistake are small.


Also yes, painter was in the middle of the field of battle and just painted this quickly as that guy was dying there in the middle. Totally wasn't his imagination, no.

Also tincan armour and no helmet... nub deserved to lose the battle.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Snufalufagus on April 02, 2014, 05:30:55 pm
They stayed far far away from any real action.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Rhaegar on April 02, 2014, 05:35:43 pm
they had the best equipment, the best bodyguards, and not all the great generals loved to fight on the front line;luck clearly plays a key part in how everything in life
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:36:02 pm
Okay, so thats one thing, but there were also veteran squads, guys who had huge beards, lots of scars and big muscle, how did they survived? 1h shielders with good formations?
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Wiltzu on April 02, 2014, 05:39:17 pm
You can't get through plate without having a xbow.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on April 02, 2014, 05:40:24 pm
You didn't really use swords in close combat, they were to big and ungainly to swing. Most men-at-arms used hammers of a sort - crush helmets, breastplates = dead knight haha. Also a lot of knights/men-at-arms were killed by their own men - they fell down and got crushed together, and if they fell down it was rpetty hard to get back up again. So you lie there hoping to not die - then a dagger goes through your eye slit and you be dead
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Rhaegar on April 02, 2014, 05:41:09 pm
experience certainly played a role imported, when you know the battle is not the fear and aggisce rationally, committing fewer errors and remaining alive and also know when to retreat from the battle could be important...
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: BlueKnight on April 02, 2014, 05:42:37 pm
Quote from: SirCymro_Crusader on April 02, 2014, 05:40:24 pm
You didn't really use swords in close combat, they were to big and ungainly to swing. Most men-at-arms used hammers of a sort - crush helmets, breastplates = dead knight haha. Also a lot of knights/men-at-arms were killed by their own men - they fell down and got crushed together, and if they fell down it was rpetty hard to get back up again. So you lie there hoping to not die - then a dagger goes through your eye slit and you be dead
That's a great bedtime-story for my kids, thanks Cymro.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on April 02, 2014, 05:43:50 pm
Considering the fact that crpg does not truly incorporate realism but really comes very close to it, I believe based on my experience with this game (the only medieval battle experience I have indeed) that survival would probably depend as much on luck as it would on your personal finesse, strength, skills etc. in a real battlefield.

Turning into an arrowbag, for example, shouldn't really be that hard in a heated battle.

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Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on April 02, 2014, 05:48:25 pm
Quote from: BlueKnight on April 02, 2014, 05:42:37 pm
That's a great bedtime-story for my kids, thanks Cymro.

Not sure if sarcasm or....:(
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Falka on April 02, 2014, 05:48:56 pm
Quote from: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:20:56 pm
Okay, I was there thinking, but how did actual medieval elite knights/commanders and generals survived battles back in medieval era?

Sometimes they didn't.

Quote
Władysław III (31 October 1424 – 10 November 1444), also known as Władysław of Varna was King of Poland from 1434, and King of Hungary from 1440, until his death at the Battle of Varna.[1]

John the Blind (Luxembourgish: Jang de Blannen; German: Johann der Blinde von Luxemburg; Czech: Jan Lucemburský) (10 August 1296 – 26 August 1346) was the Count of Luxembourg from 1309 and King of Bohemia from 1310 and titular King of Poland. He was the eldest son of the Holy Roman Emperor Henry VII and his wife Margaret of Brabant. He is well known for having died while fighting in the Battle of Crécy at age 50, after having been blind for a decade.

Richard III (2 October 1452 – 22 August 1485) was King of England for two years, from 1483 until his death in 1485 in the Battle of Bosworth Field.

Louis II (Hungarian: Lajos, Czech: Ludvík Jagellonský; 1 July 1506 – 29 August 1526) was King of Hungary, Croatia and King of Bohemia (as Louis) from 1516 to 1526. He was killed during the Battle of Mohács fighting the Ottomans.

and more, who I don't remember at the moment.

Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: BlueKnight on April 02, 2014, 05:49:19 pm
Quote from: SirCymro_Crusader on April 02, 2014, 05:48:25 pm
Not sure if sarcasm or....:(
...or I don't have kids
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Utrakil on April 02, 2014, 05:52:09 pm
Many survived because the goal is to win a battle and not to kill all enemies. So when you were severely injured you left the battlefield to get medical attention. the higher your rank the more soldiers helped you to escape to a save place. The battle leaders mostly allowed the defeated army to collect their wounded from the battlefield. To go and kill every last one of them was not according to the knights code.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: [ptx] on April 02, 2014, 05:59:39 pm
Leaders wore the best possible protection, were surrounded by similarly armed/armored elite bodyguard, if they fought, they didn't generally charge in the more suicidal places, their enemies generally sought to capture and ransom them instead... probably some more factors as well.

All that changed with firearms though.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Nintendo on April 03, 2014, 05:09:53 pm
Quote from: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:20:56 pm
Okay, I was there thinking, but how did actual medieval elite knights/commanders and generals survived battles back in medieval era?
Lol take for example in crpg no matter how strong you are, one round you will get hit and killed, not talking about some random flying arrow.
So the big question is how. Luck? Very strong plate armor?

Imagine being in middle of something like this
(click to show/hide)

Well the picture shows the answer.
As others were fighting and died, while he was posing for the heroic picture.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Latvian on April 03, 2014, 05:13:55 pm
back in the days plate armor actualy protected form damage
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Penitent on April 04, 2014, 12:41:17 am
Medieval battles involved many more people, and the leaders were on horseback usually.  They could pick and choose where to have their cavalry charge to sway the battle, and not just charge into a hopeless melee.

Also, they were surrounded and accompanied at all times by elite troops meant to protect them.  If the leader was wounded, the bodyguard/retainers would surround him and help him escape.

Also, the goal was not to kill everyone on the enemy side, but to cause panic and route them, making them flee.  So lots of people survived...but the leaders were usually mounted (could flee much easier).  They also had the best arms, armor, and training.

That being said, many royalties did die.  It was much more important (profitable) to try and capture them alive though, and this happened more often.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Butan on April 04, 2014, 03:29:17 am
Quote from: jack786 on April 02, 2014, 05:36:02 pm
Okay, so thats one thing, but there were also veteran squads, guys who had huge beards, lots of scars and big muscle, how did they survived? 1h shielders with good formations?


Evolution syndrome : those who have luck/skill/adaptability/win are veterans, and veterans are by definition those who survived. Those who died lacked one of those 4 things at one point or another and that's pretty much it. Dying is random in wars.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: HarunYahya on April 04, 2014, 04:27:17 am
Ranged was inaccurate and only fatal at close range , direct shots.
Armor was armor instead of steel sheet. You couldn't deal any damage to plated dudes with swings,you needed to pierce weak spots of the armor.
Still,people were dying actually.
An xbowmy old friend killed Richard the Lionheart for example.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on April 04, 2014, 05:35:47 am
Fight on the front lines. Command from a tent upon the hill. Sit upon the throne within your keep. Work the soil in your secluded little hamlet. Nothing is ever safe. With time, He will always find you. It's only a question of when.

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Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: Kuujis on April 04, 2014, 08:36:48 am
Actually - simple reason, why nobles usually survived was that they were worth more alive than dead. Ransoming was rampart and part of the deal... There were even battles lost, because all army thought that enemies are too weak to even resist so they charged for the nobles, in order to capture them. Then the "peasants" surounded them and the victory became a loss (Agincourt?). Armor was shiny and ornated and gold plated and what not to IDENTIFY a target worth capturing. Protecting the person inside was a perk too, but as the OP noted - in a mess like the depicted battle of grunwald http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald) one stab through a joint of armour would be more than enough.  And the irony is, that A LOT of teutonic order leadership WERE killed in the battle, despite their armour  :rolleyes:

This reasong for identifying a target worth capturing persisted quite beyond what one would call "age of knights" and even generals/officers fighting with musket troops were wearing these, part as bullet proof wests, part as "capture me, don't kill" insignia.
Title: Re: Random question of the week
Post by: BadooN on April 05, 2014, 10:35:28 pm
Most medieval battles were actually just short skirmishes ending with one or even both sides just retreating.  Also many of paintings are huge exaggerations and often commissioned by their depicted leaders to show everyone that they are courageous/powerful leaders etc.