cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Shaksie on February 02, 2014, 12:52:26 pm

Title: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Shaksie on February 02, 2014, 12:52:26 pm
As suggested by the title; I think this game would benefit from some high damage unbalanced one handed weapons.
There may be no need for models as, (with a damage buff, and maybe speed/length of course) weapons such as Military Cleaver, Military Hammer, Warhammer etc. could be made unbalanced.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Kafein on February 02, 2014, 05:45:44 pm
In that case please put the unbalanced tag on things where it makes sense first. Such as every single polearm between long axe and elegant poleaxe.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Tzar on February 02, 2014, 05:52:57 pm
.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Rebelyell on February 02, 2014, 07:10:36 pm
KNOCKDOWN 1H HAMMERS  :twisted:
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Byrdi on February 02, 2014, 10:46:21 pm
In that case please put the unbalanced tag on things where it makes sense first. Such as every single polearm between long axe and elegant poleaxe.

Elegant poleaxe seems pretty balanced to me.
It is fairly long and held pretty high up and has metal at the bottom to even the weight:
(click to show/hide)

Sorry for derailing.
It seems like a good idea with unbalanced 1h weapons. I am not sure wether it is realistic, but the diversity would certainly be good for the game, so who cares about realism :D
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: zagibu on February 02, 2014, 11:39:50 pm
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Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Grumbs on February 02, 2014, 11:52:20 pm
Unbalanced is a horrible game mechanic imo. Just make some really slow 1 handers without stab but good swing damage
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:48:35 am
Unbalanced is a horrible game mechanic imo. Just make some really slow 1 handers without stab but good swing damage

Who the heck is going to use that? Speed is the main selling point for weapons in this game. Why to buy a slow 1H hammer, when you can buy fast 1H sword that also has stab?
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 12:50:54 am
Elegant poleaxe seems pretty balanced to me.
It is fairly long and held pretty high up and has metal at the bottom to even the weight:
(click to show/hide)

Sorry for derailing.
It seems like a good idea with unbalanced 1h weapons. I am not sure wether it is realistic, but the diversity would certainly be good for the game, so who cares about realism :D

Thanks for pointing this out... the leverage you get from holding a polearm higher up allow you far more control over the otherwise heavy weapon. Also, the axe blade on polearms that were used for combat is not nearly as unwieldy as you might expect. These weapons were designed for the battlefield, not for chopping wood. The blades on the axe were far thinner than anything you would use to chop wood with. The 1 handed hatchet would more likely be unbalanced than any poleaxe. It is a shame, however, than the models for the long axe, long war axe, and great axe tend to look more like oversized wood-chopping axes and yes, based upon the model should perhaps all be unbalanced, super slow, and also have at least 10 more damage each. But due to balance and fun coming before reality, it is not so.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Moncho on February 03, 2014, 01:32:22 am
Isn't morningstar unbalanced on its 1h secondary mode?
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: San on February 03, 2014, 02:30:02 am
Better 1h alt mode of many 2h weapons. Instant slow 1h with good damage niche.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Battlepriest on February 03, 2014, 02:47:22 am
we should have a 1h secondary mode for great maul

does 37b and has speed 40
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 03:57:38 am
we should have a 1h secondary mode for great maul

does 37b and has speed 40

so you mean

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Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Taser on February 03, 2014, 04:13:42 am
As suggested by the title; I think this game would benefit from some high damage unbalanced one handed weapons.
There may be no need for models as, (with a damage buff, and maybe speed/length of course) weapons such as Military Cleaver, Military Hammer, Warhammer etc. could be made unbalanced.

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Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 03, 2014, 04:15:08 am
Who the heck is going to use that? Speed is the main selling point for weapons in this game. Why to buy a slow 1H hammer, when you can buy fast 1H sword that also has stab?
exactly! thats why every sword or cut type of dmg must be hardly nerfed... or at least every sword should get cut type of dmg on their stabs... and its about 2hs also...
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Battlepriest on February 03, 2014, 06:36:14 am
so you mean


yeah except longer
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 11:47:31 am
exactly! thats why every sword or cut type of dmg must be hardly nerfed... or at least every sword should get cut type of dmg on their stabs... and its about 2hs also...

What? No not really. Swords, axes, picks, hammers, maces they all have their merits. Why to nerf 1H swords (again)? To force 1H users to run around with fugly unbalanced weapons?

My point was that, imo, there is no need for unbalanced 1H weapons, we have enough heavy 1H weapons already. When you add an unbalanced 1H weapon(s), everyone will say "fuck that", and buys balanced mace or a sword instead.

Actually, it would be realistic for all weapons that use specific point to deliver damage to be unbalanced, without nerf to swords, because swords were superior weapons, and the only reason anyone would wield axe, mace or hammer was because they were cheaper than swords.

EDIT: they were also better suited for combating heavy armor, but swords had stabs for that.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Sniger on February 08, 2014, 01:48:30 am
could make it so the use of all 2h weapons in one hand makes it unbalanced or something like that
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 08, 2014, 01:50:43 am
could make it so the use of all 2h weapons in one hand makes it unbalanced or something like that

Yeah, but how many people use 2H in one hand outside cav?

Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: owens on February 08, 2014, 11:23:31 am
haha

Nightmare sorry to pick you up on this but you don't seem to know much about armoured combat. Try stabbing into plate or even a brigandine with anything. You will end up with a sore wrist (assuming one handed) and potentially a dented skull after your opponent smacks you with a heavy falchion or mace. Ever wondered why people half sworded and used longswords like clubs against heavy armour. Its because a slash or traditional (warband style) stab would have failed against the later period armours.




Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 08, 2014, 11:36:55 am
haha

Nightmare sorry to pick you up on this but you don't seem to know much about armoured combat. Try stabbing into plate or even a brigandine with anything. You will end up with a sore wrist (assuming one handed) and potentially a dented skull after your opponent smacks you with a heavy falchion or mace. . Its because a slash or traditional (warband style) stab would have failed against the later period armours.

That entirely depends on capabilities of a person and their weapon. And if you want to make this game realistic, then make plate armor cost several hundred thousands of gold.

Quote
Ever wondered why people half sworded and used longswords like clubs against heavy armour

Halfswording is horribly overrated technique. Few historicians spew some random crap and suddenly everyone takes it for granted.

And used longswords like clubs? The heck are you smoking mate? Do you actually believe they grabbed the blade of the weapon and used pommel as mace? WTF?
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: dreadnok on February 08, 2014, 05:12:38 pm
Unbalanced is a horrible game mechanic imo. Just make some really slow 1 handers without stab but good swing damage


The game is all about speed, I have a mighty iron war axe, 40 cut 96 speed and it hits like a noodle. The liudao has 103 speed and 34 cut and hits like a truck,  I still like the axe tho for destroying shields
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: owens on February 08, 2014, 11:57:10 pm
Nightmare  YES infact they did
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 09, 2014, 12:06:32 am
Nightmare  YES infact they did

Oh god you are hllarious. Chances are that, rather than wounding anyone, you would ruin your gauntlets (in the better case) or have your weapon slip out of your hands. It would be reasonable to hit someone with the pommel when using two handed grip, but I fail to see how would grabbing the sword by blade and trying to hit someone with the pommel would do any good.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: JackieChan on February 09, 2014, 12:11:09 am
Why not buff some of the current 1h "peasent" weapons? Like falchion, which basically works like a 1 handed axe.

Nobody is using them anyway (apart from the daggers)
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: owens on February 09, 2014, 10:19:23 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_(Codex_Wallerstein)_107v.jpg


Morte Striking: This is when both hands grip the blade to smite with the pommel or crossguard.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Talhoffer/HT-Web.htm

Quote
* Half-swording and morte-striking are best for armoured*
An unarmoured fighter can do both as needed, either against an unarmoured foe or especially against a plate-armoured foe.  A longsword wielded by half-swording lets the fighter strongly set aside a foe’s strike and allows accuracy and power for thrusting, especially for seeking the gaps of plate-armour.  If wielded to morte-strike, it makes for a fearsome attack against a foe whether unarmoured or armoured.  With the pommel it allows battering of plate-armour; and with the crossguard, it allows piercing of its gaps or perhaps the armour itself, and hooking and wrenching of both his armour and the foe himself.  The equally plate-armoured fighter and foe would surely do both half-swording and morte-striking against each other.



Nightmare please show some respect and do some research. I know you are new to communicating with people over the internet. In my opinion that really shouldn't be an excuse for behaving the way you do.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 09, 2014, 12:14:11 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_(Codex_Wallerstein)_107v.jpg


Morte Striking: This is when both hands grip the blade to smite with the pommel or crossguard.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Talhoffer/HT-Web.htm



Nightmare please show some respect and do some research. I know you are new to communicating with people over the internet. In my opinion that really shouldn't be an excuse for behaving the way you do.

God I love how you people think that nobody was able to land a decent hit on plate without half swording.

Also, I never heard of anyone that managed to do any damage at all by grabbing the weapon by BLADE and using the POMMEL as MACE. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HIGH IS THE PROBABILITTY OF THE SWORD FALLING OUT OF YOUR HANDS?

And even if you did manage to land a hit without breaking your sword or gauntlets, it wouldnt really do as much as you think, because most of soldiers in middle ages had at least metal helmet.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: owens on February 09, 2014, 11:06:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bdMfaymGlk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnB2qB5va3I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqP1F36EMY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4PGAnq6w7Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4W9B_Ybmro


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw


Mate you are impossible. These blades are not serrated and the blade would surely be gripped tightly to reduce slippage to a minimum. A few of these guys demonstrate the technique, a few are just messing about and others show that you won't cut your hands. I'm not responding to you anymore as you haven't demonstrated any of the responses one expects from a fully functioning mind.

Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 09, 2014, 11:56:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bdMfaymGlk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnB2qB5va3I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqP1F36EMY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4PGAnq6w7Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4W9B_Ybmro


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw


Mate you are impossible. These blades are not serrated and the blade would surely be gripped tightly to reduce slippage to a minimum. A few of these guys demonstrate the technique, a few are just messing about and others show that you won't cut your hands. I'm not responding to you anymore as you haven't demonstrated any of the responses one expects from a fully functioning mind.

Believe what you want. Let us all use swords like spear and then grab the blade and beat each other with pommels, because that is their purpose.

HURR DURR the indestructibe plate armor.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Kafein on February 10, 2014, 12:30:42 am

The game is all about speed, I have a mighty iron war axe, 40 cut 96 speed and it hits like a noodle. The liudao has 103 speed and 34 cut and hits like a truck,  I still like the axe tho for destroying shields

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Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Phew on February 11, 2014, 03:18:46 pm
Buff 1h mode of 2h weapons, then make them all unbalanced in 1h mode.

Weapons like the Langes Messer gain +3 cut, +1 speed, and +2(?) thrust when going from 1h->2h mode. Just apply the same logic in reverse, but with larger penalties. How about the following stats for Longsword in 1h mode?

Longsword (1h mode)
32 cut
21 pierce
94 speed
Unbalanced

This makes it just slightly worse than the Arabian Cavalry Sword, instead of massively worse like it is now. The same penalties to Morningstar would yield:

Morningstar (1h mode)
33 pierce
87 speed
still unbalanced

Still pretty crazy damage, but ridiculously slow for a 1h, so I don't think it would be OP.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Tydeus on February 11, 2014, 03:54:03 pm
Buff 1h mode of 2h weapons, then make them all unbalanced in 1h mode.

Weapons like the Langes Messer gain +3 cut, +1 speed, and +2(?) thrust when going from 1h->2h mode. Just apply the same logic in reverse, but with larger penalties.
Doesn't work like that. Unlike other things, bastard sword with a shield isn't a "mode" so it doesn't have its own dedicated stats, it simply has modifiers(percentage based penalties) and the modifiers have to be the same for every weapon, so some will be hit harder than others(speed penalty becoming a larger factor for the morningstar than the bastard swords as an example). Can't do the unbalanced thing either, I believe, due to the above.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Phew on February 11, 2014, 04:05:33 pm
Doesn't work like that. Unlike other things, bastard sword with a shield isn't a "mode" so it doesn't have its own dedicated stats, it simply has modifiers(percentage based penalties) and the modifiers have to be the same for every weapon, so some will be hit harder than others(speed penalty becoming a larger factor for the morningstar than the bastard swords as an example). Can't do the unbalanced thing either, I believe, due to the above.

What is the current penalty, -33% dmg, -25% speed? Could that just be changed to -15% dmg, -10% speed or similar? Basically whatever makes the 1h longsword just slightly worse than the ACS, which hopefully keeps the Morningstar from being too good in 1h mode.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Tydeus on February 11, 2014, 04:10:35 pm
What is the current penalty, -33% dmg, -25% speed? Could that just be changed to -15% dmg, -10% speed or similar? Basically whatever makes the 1h longsword just slightly worse than the ACS, which hopefully keeps the Morningstar from being too good in 1h mode.
-15% damage currently and similar speed I believe, for the shield penalty. Regardless, the numbers are being lowered when you use one of these weapons with a shield while not being atop a horse.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Grumbs on February 11, 2014, 04:17:48 pm
While on the subject, why can't you swing with the Estoc eventhough it only has 28 cut and similar length to Longsword?

Any plans to make other weapons usable with a shield?
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Tydeus on February 11, 2014, 04:46:01 pm
While on the subject, why can't you swing with the Estoc eventhough it only has 28 cut and similar length to Longsword?

Any plans to make other weapons usable with a shield?
Because otherwise you'd be able to thrust with it, and we have to consider how this plays from horseback. It would mean you'd have a 17 length longer Espada Eslavona(you wouldn't suffer penalties when thrusting from horseback without a shield on your arm). And no, not at this time.
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 11, 2014, 09:40:26 pm
for me there should be simple relation:
knockdown=unballanced, like in 2h
Title: Re: Please add one handed unbalanced weapons.
Post by: Jona on February 12, 2014, 09:54:46 am
for me there should be simple relation:
knockdown=unballanced, like in 2h

Realistically speaking, something like a warhammer was relatively easy to wield with 1 hand due to it being well-balanced and short. Warhammers wouldn't weigh too much more than a hefty modern household hammer that you use hammer nails and such. If you go and pick up your hammer, you will find that while sure, it is not nearly as wieldy as a sword, you can still easily stop it mid-swing. Let's not forget, that the odds of you being as well-practiced in such things as a dedicated knight are also pretty low. In crpg, the warhammer weighs 3.5kg, or ~5.5. pounds. This seems a little ridiculous to me, considering that the long hafted knobbed mace wieghs 2.8kg, or ~6.2 pounds. The LHKM is just over double the length of the warhammer and has a larger metal head on it. Now, despite the LHKM being wielded with 2 hands (in the polearm grip, not the 2 handed grip) it is labeled as unbalanced. Arguably, with the very small increase in weight, and the fact that you get the extra leverage from the 2nd hand's placement, there is no reason why this weapon would be unbalanced while the 1handed warhammer is balanced.

The only reason why polearm/2handed weapons with knockdown are un balanced are for purely gameplay balancing reasons, I would presume. Being able to feint spam with a much longer, deadlier mace would be pretty OP. Also, the very large weight of the warhammer, and the arguably light weight of the LHKM are also for balancing reasons would be my guess. If the warhammer and LHKM were each given their realistic weights, the warhammer would almost never knockdown, while the LHKM would be much more likely to, given the game's current knockdown formulas.