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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jack1 on January 30, 2014, 07:16:21 am

Title: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jack1 on January 30, 2014, 07:16:21 am

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Mae. on January 30, 2014, 07:24:41 am

weird... remnant is primarily white and hispanic (plus that weird german guy)... not seeing the relation

edit: syke super diverse group here, we got an asian too. :P

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Phantasmal on January 30, 2014, 07:31:22 am

So many throwers. So. Many. Throwers.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: kasMVC on January 30, 2014, 07:32:30 am

fuck you bundle of sticks

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: chesterotab on January 30, 2014, 07:41:11 am

The only logical solution is to give 2h the ability to parry and redirect ranged projectiles back at the thrower using nudge.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Techno on January 30, 2014, 07:51:19 am

It is true. I have seen a major increase of chocolate colored men of African decent on NA_1.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 30, 2014, 08:06:15 am

Video looked kinda staged

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: LordBerenger on January 30, 2014, 08:19:37 am

Quote from: Techno on January 30, 2014, 07:51:19 am

It is true. I have seen a major increase of chocolate colored men of African decent on NA_1.

Daz San's famz brah

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jona on January 30, 2014, 09:11:37 am

Take note, item balancers, that many of these projectiles simply fall out of their target causing minor flesh wounds (if any) and many targets take upwards of 10 - 15 hits by these throwing lances to die. I think an appropriate nerf to all throwing weapons is in order, since I am sure that my 6 ironflesh far surpasses the toughness of a measly elephant's flesh, yet I can only take 2 throwing lances at most! My character's skin is level 6 ironflesh, and we all know that iron as thick as an elephant's hide would clearly be more resistant to projectiles... now multiply that by 6. If elephant's skin was so tough we would have a trait called elephant's flesh, but alas, we don't.

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Tojo on January 30, 2014, 10:11:48 am

the post gave me at least 2 chuckles. Quality stuff.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 30, 2014, 11:24:33 am

Everyone has jarids.
Old news.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 30, 2014, 05:18:53 pm

Quote from: maeday on January 30, 2014, 07:24:41 am

weird... remnant is primarily white and hispanic (plus that weird german guy)... not seeing the relation

I resent that.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 30, 2014, 05:49:28 pm

Holy shit is that video brutal (mainly with the elephant and hippo kill)

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Elindor on January 30, 2014, 06:33:37 pm

This is pretty accurate.

cRPG is basically 90% throwing (and polearms) now.

Speaking of, someone mentioned recently it's harder to fight in groups now and ganking is more prominent. I'd say this has a lot to do with the increase in polearms, especially stabby spear ones - because they can easily stab in on you while you are fighting a group of people (yes yes, block down, but then there's 4 other people attacking you from OTHER directions)

I'm not sure what it is about throwing, but I do think that it's funny that it tends to do a good bit more damage than arrows, which [should be] projected at a much higher velocity - although in cRPG arrows have the flying velocity of nerf darts.

Here would be my suggestion with throwing, ONE of the following:
- lower damage
- slower "reload" speed
- less viable when used in melee

Just saying...

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Carthan on January 30, 2014, 07:00:25 pm

Quote from: Jack1 on January 30, 2014, 07:16:21 am

Never have i seen a more relevant video

EDIT: Also how did you manage to get a recording of our thrower night teamspeak?

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jack1 on January 30, 2014, 07:15:45 pm

Quote from: Elindor on January 30, 2014, 06:33:37 pm

Here would be my suggestion with throwing, ONE of the following:
- lower damage
- slower "reload" speed
- less viable when used in melee

Non blockable except w/shields
Remove damage bonous vs shields for all but axes?

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Sauce on January 30, 2014, 08:45:54 pm

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Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Gmnotutoo on January 30, 2014, 08:48:45 pm

Quote from: Sauce on January 30, 2014, 08:45:54 pm

2handers want melee-throwing nerfed?

I only want the Katana to have weapon speed again, I've paid enough in weaboo taxes to warrant this request.

I will get depressed and start using a longsword eventually.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Tojo on January 30, 2014, 09:51:25 pm

Elindor I just have to argue that throwing should do more dmg than an arrow because of the extra mass. However, when I just did the math for Kinetic energy of the Jarid Vs a Bodkin arrow shot from a Horn Bow, the bodkin had more Kinetic energy. because of its velocity.

This tells me that throwing weapons should be heavier. A stack of bodkins weighs 10 but a stack of jarids only weighs 4, less than half the weight.

KE=1/2 * m *v^2

Jarid 266= 1/2 *1.33 *20^2

Bodkin from Hornbow 644=1/2 * .666 *44^2

just my 2 cents

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jarold on January 31, 2014, 12:34:29 am

Those Africans be stone cold!

Take a good look Remnants! You're ruining cRPG for other :(

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jona on January 31, 2014, 01:40:26 am

Quote from: Tojo on January 30, 2014, 09:51:25 pm

Elindor I just have to argue that throwing should do more dmg than an arrow because of the extra mass. However, when I just did the math for Kinetic energy of the Jarid Vs a Bodkin arrow shot from a Horn Bow, the bodkin had more Kinetic energy. because of its velocity.

This tells me that throwing weapons should be heavier. A stack of bodkins weighs 10 but a stack of jarids only weighs 4, less than half the weight.

KE=1/2 * m *v^2

Jarid 266= 1/2 *1.33 *20^2

Bodkin from Hornbow 644=1/2 * .666 *44^2

just my 2 cents

Pshh... child's play!

(click to show/hide)

Let me know when you take into account impusle/momentum, and of course the geometric and hardness factors of the materials used in the collision (armors vs. arrow/jarid point) which will give you a better idea of penetration by each missile type. You can even take into account deformation, but that is arguably taking it too far, in case the previously suggested steps weren't overkill enough. Also, something to keep in mind is the artificial weight of arrows in this game to nerf kiting archers. A quiver of 15 arrows does not weigh as much as chain mail armor. This increased weight definitely adds more KE to each arrow. In your analysis, using the weight form the game, one arrow (assuming the weight of the quiver = 0) was 2/3 kg, which is roughly 1.5 lbs. I can assure you, and I am sure common sense would also say the same, a single arrow does not weigh anything close to 1.5 pounds. I would guess based on my experiences that a single arrow weighs roughly one ounce, but might be even less. The only source of measurement I have is how heavy the arrows felt in my hand, and I not going to claim to be a human scale, but I will say usually my guesses are good...ish. :D Of course, this all depends on what material the arrow is made of. I would guess that medieval wooden arrows have a bit more weight behind them than modern composite arrows, though not much I'm sure.

In my post earlier, I pointed out that in this video many of the throwing spears tend to fall out, or barely penetrate the poor animal's hide. Undoubtedly a small arrow traveling at a higher velocity, while having a much smaller cross sectional area, will penetrate far better, and thus arguably 'cause more damage' to its intended victim.

Quote from: Jack1 on January 30, 2014, 07:15:45 pm

Remove damage bonous vs shields for all but axes?

Yes. It is pretty dumb when all ranged players tell you to get a shield, and yet your high-tier shield with 5-6 shield skill gets eaten alive by just 3 jarids.

Another thing to keep in mind, and in my opinion the only thing that could ever justify throwing's high damage output would be if all throwers (of spear-like throwing weapons at least) had the option to use a spear-thrower. Using one would give the current, absurdly high damage output, but perhaps sacrifice 'reload' speed and/or accuracy (since something actually has to be loaded). Also this might be a 1 slot item, so less ammunition allowed. Now, sure, this stands about a 0% chance of ever being implemented, since it requires brand new models and animations, but hey, just a thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

Now I know that the various types of spear-throwers have been found come from civilizations that come far before the time period of this game... oh well. Perhaps there was a medieval era spear thrower that I am unaware of, I won't pretend to be any kind of history expert. I personally tend to think of native americans when I think of this type of tool.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Tanken on January 31, 2014, 02:45:40 am

Ban Jack for animal cruelty, he told me his tribe filmed all of this themselves.

Edit: I am totally the Elephant. That Elephant was like "STOP FUCKING THROWING SHIT AT ME." and pulls it out and tosses it aside. Poor Dumbo though :[

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jarold on January 31, 2014, 04:53:57 am

Quote from: Tank Burner on January 31, 2014, 02:45:40 am

Ban Jack for animal cruelty, he told me his tribe filmed all of this themselves.

Edit: I am totally the Elephant. That Elephant was like "STOP FUCKING THROWING SHIT AT ME." and pulls it out and tosses it aside. Poor Dumbo though :[

I thought the same, the elephant should've flattened em or ran away instead it just stood there. :P ............ :(

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Elindor on January 31, 2014, 05:10:36 am

Quote from: Sauce on January 30, 2014, 08:45:54 pm

2handers want melee-throwing nerfed?

Come on Sauce, when (if) I finally get to a thrower I want that guy dead - he should just explode when I touch him.

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Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Elindor on January 31, 2014, 05:12:45 am

Quote from: Jona on January 31, 2014, 01:40:26 am

Let me know when you take into account impusle/momentum...

Jona, tldr....just yell NURRRGFGFFFFF and post pics of kittens :)

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Techno on January 31, 2014, 05:34:25 am

PETA has been contacted.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Apsod on January 31, 2014, 05:47:17 am

Humans are such ranged&gangbanging cunts! They didn't even duel the last animals alive.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jona on January 31, 2014, 06:18:00 am

NURRRGFGFFFFF!!!!!

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(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Sauce on January 31, 2014, 07:59:41 am

Here, this is being passed around:

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Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

Quote from: Tojo on January 30, 2014, 09:51:25 pm

Elindor I just have to argue that throwing should do more dmg than an arrow because of the extra mass. However, when I just did the math for Kinetic energy of the Jarid Vs a Bodkin arrow shot from a Horn Bow, the bodkin had more Kinetic energy. because of its velocity.

This tells me that throwing weapons should be heavier. A stack of bodkins weighs 10 but a stack of jarids only weighs 4, less than half the weight.

KE=1/2 * m *v^2

Jarid 266= 1/2 *1.33 *20^2

Bodkin from Hornbow 644=1/2 * .666 *44^2

just my 2 cents

maybe, but throwing shouldn't do more damage than melee. A throwing spear being thrown is not going to have as much kinetic energy than a throwing spear being stabbed. I didn't take physics, but I played a lot of sports growing up and seems to be that the air friction from throwing would slow the projectile some, and thrusting it would have your full body weight and kinetic motion from the transfer of energy of your body limbs into the spear as you thrust.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Carthan on January 31, 2014, 07:33:30 pm

As a thrower: I will let you nerf it as much as you want IF we
A keep our melee and blocking features
B let us retrieve ammo from players/corpses (I mean if we cant pull an axe or jarid out of someone don't they deserve to die quickly?)
Also fixing the ammo stacking bug would be nice.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jona on February 01, 2014, 02:03:53 am

WARNING: Incoming Science Lesson

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

A throwing spear being thrown is not going to have as much kinetic energy than a throwing spear being stabbed.

False. If you observe the spear and only the spear, I would argue that a thrown one could have more KE. If you look at how someone throws a spear, they hold onto it for a long time, kinda like when pitching a baseball, and therefore it accelerates more than the stabbed spear since it is being held, and therefore sped up, for a longer period of time. Most stabs are relatively quick jabs compared to the larger sweeping motion required to hurl a spear at someone. Just imagine trying to throw a baseball by simply holding it parallel to your torso, then thrusting your arm straight out. That ball is going nowhere. But if you go through the entire motion, it can go pretty darn far at a much higher speed. Since both spears/baseballs have the same mass, the only difference would be their velocity. The one that you throw the 'proper' way has much more speed than the one you are thrusting with. Therefore, it has more KE.

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

the air friction from throwing would slow the projectile some

False, more or less. While air friction as you call it (more commonly known as air resistance or simply the viscosity of the air) does indeed exist, it can commonly be ignored for problems such as this one. Why? Well to be honest, air simply isn't that viscous. Something with high viscosity would be a liquid, like molasses. Heck, tar is even more viscous, taking somewhere around 80 years for it to drip a single drop when put in an inverted beaker. If you imagine having to wave your hand around through the air, sure you can feel the air move out of your way... now compare that to how it feels in a pool, or imagine how it would be in a pool filled with molasses. Much harder, I bet. The only time we would really consider air resistance is when throwing something that isn't at all aerodynamic. Think about when you drop a sheet of paper... it never just falls to the ground, it always floats around. That is based on its geometry as well as its weight. But I digress... in sports, you never see air resistance have much of an effect. The only sports that you might see it have some influence is in golf, football, maybe even baseball, if there are severe winds... but that isn't exactly 'air resistance' so much as it is simply an external force. Really, air resistance only helps frisbees, since air resistance provides lift.

tl;dr: Spears, sports balls, even throwing axes or knives, are all too aerodynamic to consider the viscosity of air. When was the last time that you threw a baseball and it stopped moving forwards BEFORE hitting the ground? Or when was the last time you got pitched a fast ball and it noticeably slowed right before you had to hit it because the air held it back? The only major force that affects projectiles would be gravity pulling them down. Now, we could get into how the spin on a baseball affects its trajectory, and air resistance is INDEED necessary for that, but that is for another day. :)

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

thrusting it would have your full body weight and kinetic motion from the transfer of energy of your body limbs into the spear as you thrust.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! The only difference in thrusting with a spear and throwing it, is its total weight. As I said previously, examining ONLY the spear, a thrown one would travel faster and since they have the same weight, the thrown one would have more KE, and should therefore do more damage upon impact. However, we must not forget to look at the entire system here. The thrown one has only its weight behind the impact. The stabbing one has both its weight, and the significantly larger weight of the person behind it. In crpg, the throwing lance has a weight of 1.5 kg. An average person might weigh ~82 kgs (180 lbs). If you stab with the throwing lance, with at least 75% of your weight behind it, it will do considerably more damage than any lightweight lance moving slightly faster through the air.

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

I didn't take physics

Okay I guess I can forgive you, but shame on you! :P

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: San on February 01, 2014, 04:08:02 am

Quote

If you stab with the throwing lance, with at least 75% of your weight behind it, it will do considerably more damage than any lightweight lance moving slightly faster through the air.

All I got from this.

edit: reworded

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 04, 2014, 08:39:06 pm

So I was right? :?

Kind of...I forgot to mention that you have your weight behind the thrusted spear when you are thrusting it (and should be thrusting "through" the target). I thought the kinetic energy behind your body motion implied that, but I didn't flesh out my thought process.

Thanks for explaining it out in your thoughts.

So the obvious conclusion is to nerf throwing! IMO throwing should be something you do to soften up the enemy, it should always be a hybrid build.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jona on February 05, 2014, 12:34:51 am

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 04, 2014, 08:39:06 pm

it should always be a hybrid build.

Yes.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Yazid on April 13, 2014, 07:06:55 am

hippo plated charger?

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Spanish on April 13, 2014, 10:22:44 am

Its okay huesby you got the right idea mate, mass x acceleration=force. Thats why bows should hurt more than throwing weapons in general is even though an axe or jarid has more mass than arrow acceleration behind the arrow is greater. People just can't throw things as hard as bows shoot things especially over a distance.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Tears of Destiny on April 14, 2014, 12:19:20 am

I think the increase in throwing is a natural response to the increase in cavalry and tin-cans...

We always go in these kinds of response cycles.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Thranduil on April 14, 2014, 06:53:28 am

Quote from: Jona on February 01, 2014, 02:03:53 am

WARNING: Incoming Science Lesson

Just imagine trying to throw a baseball by simply holding it parallel to your torso, then thrusting your arm straight out. That ball is going nowhere.

This made me think of ...

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Penitent on April 14, 2014, 05:25:03 pm

That's a crazy-ass video.

The face that a bunch of peasants with spears can take out a mighty animal as tough and as massive as an elephant or hippo tells me that throwing should be buffed! These animals have hides thicker than any leather armor, large layers of fat, and massive bones protecting internal organs. A man would easily perish with 1 or 2 of those spears in him.

Of course, that's realism and not game balance. Throwing is ok right now, just popular. It will probably fade as people retire their current gen and try something else.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jack1 on April 14, 2014, 08:26:22 pm

well throwing isn't as bad as TWO MONTHS AGO WHEN I MADE THIS THREAD

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Thranduil on April 14, 2014, 08:49:40 pm

Quote from: Jack1 on April 14, 2014, 08:26:22 pm

well throwing isn't as bad as TWO MONTHS AGO WHEN I MADE THIS THREAD

You know we don't know how to read post dates! :mrgreen:

Though I must say, a lot of old topics have been necro'd lately.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: spiritus on April 15, 2014, 09:19:57 am

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 31, 2014, 04:15:59 pm

maybe, but throwing shouldn't do more damage than melee. A throwing spear being thrown is not going to have as much kinetic energy than a throwing spear being stabbed. I didn't take physics, but I played a lot of sports growing up and seems to be that the air friction from throwing would slow the projectile some, and thrusting it would have your full body weight and kinetic motion from the transfer of energy of your body limbs into the spear as you thrust.

game balance is an odd thing which in many ways is completely off from real actions.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Vengt037 on April 17, 2014, 07:32:08 am

Rookie of the year was the greatest film of all time.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: CaptBob on April 17, 2014, 07:42:11 pm

Bill Nye ain't got shit on Jona.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Jack1 on July 14, 2014, 05:24:55 am

it's starting to happen again.

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Johammeth on July 14, 2014, 05:54:46 am

The archer nest tonight:

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on July 14, 2014, 06:04:23 am

Honestly, this is all I see:
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Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on July 14, 2014, 06:11:15 am

i just kinda sat on my ballsack

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Garner on July 14, 2014, 06:17:43 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvNnu5-Jhag

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Tojo on July 14, 2014, 06:20:50 am

devs need to make regular Xbow 1 slot again, so i can kill all these my old friendchers ruining my "immersion".

Title: Re: NA_1 lately
Post by: Garner on July 14, 2014, 06:41:39 am