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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: San on January 29, 2014, 12:35:06 am

Title: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: San on January 29, 2014, 12:35:06 am
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Before we get to the ideology of how picks function vs maces:

Pick internal balance: I believe the progression makes sense. Outside of the pickaxe, they get progressively stronger, shorter, and more dense. A little boring, but I believe that it works out. The fighting pick and military sickle have great secondary modes, but I think they are still a tad weak. Like the military hammer, the fighting pick receives some large penalties for reaching the extremes of the class' length, but I think it could at least have 98 speed.

Mace internal balance: As we see from the iron mace vs winged mace, weight is an important balance quantity that can be traded for better speed/power. Because of this, I believe it's warranted for spathovaklion to have its weight reduced to 1. It will still have 1.5 weight when masterworked and work as a nice balance between the typical mace and pick.

There are also very few downsides when upgrading from iberian mace to the warhammer. This is a similar situation as the military pick to the steel pick, but in this case, the difference in power is greater and the warhammer obtains a stab. I believe warhammer should have its speed reduced by 1. With these two changes, the most powerful, long, heavy, and fastest blunt weapons have some tradeoffs between each other with the iberian mace acting as the middleground.


Maces vs Picks:
Right now, picks overlap way too heavily with the maces to be interchangeable. Picks feel like marginally faster maces without knockdown *yawn*. I think the difference between these two weapon groups should be more pronounced. Unlike 2h and polearms, blunt 1hers are balanced weapons.

I believe the pick class weapons should excel against medium to medium armours, but struggle a bit against the extreme light/heavy armours compared to swords and maces. I believe that this can be accomplished by increasing the speed of steel pick and military pick by 1, but decreasing their power by 1 at the same time. This would delegate the status of "powerhouse" among 1hers to maces/hammers for medium-heavy/heavy armour, swords best against light/medium-light armour, axes would remain a jack of all trades, and picks would retain fast and consistent damage. Comparing the steel pick to the warhammer and the military pick to the iberian mace, it makes more sense. -1 damage is similar to loss of half a powerstrike of damage.

Not saying that I expect swords to be bad against heavy armours and the like, but that there are other 1h weapons available that could do a better job vs. that specific target. I also believe this would ease the ridiculous base damage that the picks (+ warhammer) had in the past against 1h swords.



tl;dr:
Internally:
Fighting pick +1 speed to 98 cause it's bad all around
Spathovaklion -1 weight to 1.0 to reduce knockdown, weight used as balance factor for iron mace vs winged mace
Warhammer -1 speed to 96, too fast for its power increase/stab upgrade from iberian (using one at +0 I can just dig my held swing in the enemy and it'll go through (hiltslash?) fairly quickly).

So picks = good vs medium/medium-heavy, but be only decent vs very light/heavy gear while maces stay great against heavy armour:
Steel Pick +1 speed to 99, -1 swing damage to 30
Military Pick +1 speed to 99, -1 swing damage to 28

Just wanted to see what people thought about this/refined further if I missed anything since it's not really a straight up buff/nerf.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Jarold on January 29, 2014, 12:49:54 am
It seems like maces will just get picked over picks even more now, why get one or two extra points in speed when you can get knockdown and be effective across a larger armor group?
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Penitent on January 29, 2014, 12:52:04 am
Interesting observations...
Your thinking is sound, in theory, but if we increase pick speed it may cause problems because they are kind of hard to see (steel pick anyways).  I think the steel pick used to be faster in the past but it was toned down.

The warhammer is a mighty weapon, but lowering it's speed I don't think is a great solution.  It's already super short.  I would instead consider increasing the speed of the military hammer and maaaybe the iberian mace and winged mace.

I agree something should be done to adjust the spathovaklion, weight change might be a good one.

These are just my first thought upon reading your post.  I both agree and disagree.  :)
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on January 29, 2014, 01:05:24 am
Don't you dare try to get my steel pick nerfed again you cockmaster 5000. It already had its nerfs!

Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Tydeus on January 29, 2014, 04:25:20 am
Edit: Actually, on second thought I think I like this. I'm not sure the pick should really gain 1 more speed to be honest, but I do think we need to change the status quo. That is, pierce and blunt 1hers need changed. Pierce should always have the best damage against high armors by a fair bit, with blunt's advantage coming from the knockdown(lower weight could therefore receive speed and/or damage increases).
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on January 29, 2014, 04:35:43 am
I agree with all your item suggestions except for the Warhammer speed reduction - if it's going to be nerfed, the Spathovaklion should be nerfed. Also, going off topic a bit, I think one hand axes could use speed buffs. Even though they are made for great side arms, their inferiority to swords and blunt weapons is extremely obvious.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Tydeus on January 29, 2014, 04:38:06 am
Quote from: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on January 29, 2014, 04:35:43 am
I agree with all your item suggestions except for the Warhammer speed reduction - if it's going to be nerfed, the Spathovaklion should be nerfed. Also, going off topic a bit, I think one hand axes could use speed buffs. Even though they are made for great side arms, their inferiority to swords and blunt weapons is extremely obvious.

Quote from: San on January 29, 2014, 12:35:06 am
Mace internal balance: As we see from the iron mace vs winged mace, weight is an important balance quantity that can be traded for better speed/power. Because of this, I believe it's warranted for spathovaklion to have its weight reduced to 1. It will still have 1.5 weight when masterworked and work as a nice balance between the typical mace and pick.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 05:36:58 am
Have you ever met Kinngrimm?
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Penitent on January 29, 2014, 06:06:57 am
I think by and large 1h weapons are nicely balanced...except the spathovaklion.  I'll echo a other player by calling that thing kind of an abomination.  :). It's a cool weap, but not at all in line with the others power-wise.

Needs 1 less speed or at least a weight redux.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Pentecost on January 29, 2014, 06:46:30 pm
I am glad you made this topic, because I also felt that some of the weapons you mentioned were in need of adjustment.


Regarding maces vs. picks:
The reason why it seems like there is a lack of differentiation between the blunt 1hs and the pierce 1hs is because of incremental changes to the detriment of pierce 1hs. If you go back to late 2012, I felt that there were actual tradeoffs involved when choosing between the Steel Pick (100 speed, 35 pierce, and 12 str requirement at +3) and Warhammer (97 speed, 34 blunt, and 15 str requirement at +3). The Steel Pick was significantly faster than the Warhammer and had low enough requirements that even very extreme agility builds could make use of it. The Warhammer had the highest damage and knockdown chance among all 1hs. Both had their place, and neither eclipsed the other.

The problem came with two patches that happened within 3 months of each other, 0.2.9.3 (http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-2-9-3/) in March of 2013 and 0.3.0.1 in June of 2013 (http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-3-0-1/) that made it so that the Steel Pick lost 1 damage, 1 speed, and required 1 more strength to use, in addition to removing 1 damage from the Military Pick. While these were comparatively small changes, they shifted the internal balance of pierce vs. blunt 1hs decisively in favor of blunt 1hs. This disparity only became more pronounced after the addition of the Spathovaklion, a knockdown weapon that has better speed than either of the picks at the expense of only slightly less damage (about 1 effective damage difference against targets with 60 body armor).


What should be done:
I'm not entirely sure. I personally would be in favor of removing the secondary modes from the Military Pick and Steel Pick in exchange for reversing some of the previous stat decreases, but I also think that many people already believe the picks to be overpowered and would be against anything that makes them more effective. There is, however, one change for the Military Pick that I think should happen no matter what (see below).


Regarding internal balance for maces:
*Give the Spiked Mace +1 damage and increase its cost by 500-700. This makes it so that the Spiked Mace, Flanged Mace, and Iron Mace are of comparable strength and price while each bringing different things to the table as far as budget blunt 1hs go.
*Give the Iberian Mace +1 damage. As you said, San, it is less than stellar compared to the Warhammer, even after accounting for the huge difference in cost.


Regarding internal balance for picks:
*Give the Fighting Pick +1 speed. I agree with you that it is not a very good weapon and that giving it 1 more speed would at least make it slightly more competitive.
*Reduce the strength requirement of the Military Pick by 1. Giving the Military Pick a strength requirement of 12 rather than 13 would reduce overlap and serve to differentiate it from the Steel Pick by giving it a niche use among characters who have less than 15 strength.


Regarding the Spathovaklion specifically: Right now, the Spathovaklion is basically a Flanged Mace that has 2 more damage. Reducing its weight to 1 means that it will have a less than 5% chance to knockdown when unheirloomed and arguably make it a worse weapon than the Flanged Mace for normal battle. Rather than just a flat reduction in its stats, I have some other ideas on how you could make it less problematic than it currently is without making it worthless. Those are for another topic, however.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: MURDERTRON on January 29, 2014, 08:37:32 pm
Just add a secondary throwing mode for the Spathovaklion, problem solved.  With a stack of 9 of course.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Erzengel on January 29, 2014, 11:04:48 pm
I am for a Spathovaklion nerf, but reducing it's weight to 1.0 is the wrong way. It is the speed which makes it so annoying, not the weight. Give it -1 or -2 speed and it will be fine. Reducing the weight to 1.0 would completly ruin the weapon.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Andswaru on January 29, 2014, 11:24:57 pm
Quote from: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 05:36:58 am
Have you ever met Kinngrimm?

Or any of the 100 greys using it on siege with swing spam. For the love of (insert deity or other figurehead), dont buff the steel picks speed. Do anything else to it but that.

Edit:

The rest sounds good tho, except i would only nerf the Spathovaklion 0.5 in weight so that +3 is then the equalivant of the momentary +0.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Elindor on January 29, 2014, 11:38:58 pm
Spathovaklion does feel rediculous when you fight someone with it....between its speed, damage, and knockdown percentage.

It looks like the microphone from the Price is Right...it shouldn't knock down a kitten.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Ronin on January 30, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
looking at some of the comments now. cRPG community didn't disappoint me again. "Why you wan' narf ma wapon? I bash yo skullz!"

Quote from: Erzengel on January 29, 2014, 11:04:48 pm
I am for a Spathovaklion nerf, but reducing it's weight to 1.0 is the wrong way. It is the speed which makes it so annoying, not the weight. Give it -1 or -2 speed and it will be fine. Reducing the weight to 1.0 would completly ruin the weapon.
OP says the +3 version will have 1.5 weight :wink:
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Erzengel on January 30, 2014, 04:52:52 pm
Quote from: Ronin on January 30, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
OP says the +3 version will have 1.5 weight :wink:

Doesn't change anything. Reducing the weight by 1.0 will make it the worst Mace by far.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Phew on January 30, 2014, 05:27:11 pm
It's hard to differentiate between pierce/blunt weapons because the soak/reduce formulas cause pierce and blunt do roughly the same damage at all armor values, so knockdown is really the only difference. Thus, I think the strategy of making maces/hammers slow+knockdown and picks be faster is the way to go.

Therefore, I think San's suggestion to make the Spathovaklion -1kg is a great idea, because it's too fast to be knocking people down 10+% of the time. This would also make the Iberian Mace relevant again. Also, nerfing the Warhammer speed is good too, because right now it makes all the picks obsolete.

However, making the picks +1 speed/-1 dmg will still leave them a bit underpowered compared to maces. Actually the main thing that hurts the popularity of picks is that with a Side Sword or similar you can do 30p from 1.5m+, why go into kick range to do slightly more damage with a pick? 1h stab stats are still too high for such a nice animation; the Side Sword is basically a 1h Esotec. Rather than nerf the 1h stab animation to be a slow+glancy POS again, just tone down the stab dmg on 1h swords. Then people will start using picks again.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: karasu on January 31, 2014, 02:08:27 pm
Taking into account how retarded the speed bonus works in this game, I'm not sure I wanna see a pierce weapon even faster, even if reducing the damage a bit, with speed bonus I believe the output would be even bigger.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: kinngrimm on January 31, 2014, 04:50:47 pm
pierce against heavy armor to medium armor
cut against light armor to medium.
blunt could be the jack of all trades, making it effective against all armor classes,

but in that case then there would be a need to slow down blunt weapons in average "drasticly"(2-3 points). Instead giving them a few more dmg points. If they hit, they hit hard!

@Thomek, it is because of 2h/pole agi players, that i developed my build into what it is today, you know that  :wink:. While back then when i was still str based everyone told me it is not a viable option to play agi shielder. I guess we all know better now. Btw you forgot to mention, buff Katana :rolleyes:

Also while i see blunt due to knockdown as preferable to pierce at any time, due to my specific playstyle i choose pierce for now. Lads you shouldnt make the mistake to think pierce is worse, only because a few players like me use it, with a little tweaking these players can switch pretty quick to blunt without a problem and if the advantages continue to outway those of pierce ... me getting free hits additionally through knockdown .. i guess that would finally bring me into the 70 kills region, noone but me would want to see that happening  :lol:

EDIT: San did you revisited the patchnotes, when the armor soacking behaviour was changed the first time and how the weapons had been adjusted because of that?
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Kafein on February 02, 2014, 10:55:07 am
Quote from: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 05:36:58 am
Have you ever met Kinngrimm?

Have you ever met Sinisstra ?
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 02, 2014, 10:01:16 pm
Adding more differentiation to maces and picks is a good idea. Spathovaklion model looks like it should weigh less, and balance-wise most would agree it could use a nerf like that. I support that change 100%.

The warhammer is strange though. Unlike all the other maces, it has a thrust and much shorter length. Since it's not just "a better and more expensive winged/iron/iberian mace" maybe it shouldn't be directly aligned with the balance of other maces. I never really use it though, so maybe the difference isn't that great.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: San on February 02, 2014, 10:23:33 pm
My warhammer experience is from using a +0 one the last 6 months as a sidearm and great performance when using one in strat. I think it's on the threshold and that having a stab means I think it should compensate a bit more. The biggest eye-opener for me is that it has even more weight than most of the other options, so it knockdowns noticeably more often. That and the previously useless stab showing some use in certain situations, I felt it was odd to completely ignore it. Sucks that for 1h, 1 point change in anything changes it a lot, but I suppose it can just keep the same stats.

Will have to get to the rest a bit later, nice to see some discussion on this.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Phew on February 02, 2014, 10:57:46 pm
Quote from: San on February 02, 2014, 10:23:33 pm
My warhammer experience is from using a +0 one the last 6 months as a sidearm and great performance when using one in strat. I think it's on the threshold and that having a stab means I think it should compensate a bit more. The biggest eye-opener for me is that it has even more weight than most of the other options, so it knockdowns noticeably more often. That and the previously useless stab showing some use in certain situations, I felt it was odd to completely ignore it. Sucks that for 1h, 1 point change in anything changes it a lot, but I suppose it can just keep the same stats.

Will have to get to the rest a bit later, nice to see some discussion on this.

Whenever I use Penitent's +3 Warhammer, I alternate between two feelings about it:
1. "This weapon is Mjollnir incarnate, no skulls are safe from its devastation!"-when fighting people that don't attempt kicks
2. "This weapon is a festering pile of garbage!"->::GTX::-when fighting anyone that knows how to press their kick button

Tone down the kick (if cmp can't fix the stupid arc and duration, at least make the timer longer than 2s and make more nudges counter it or something), then slow down the warhammer.

Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Xeen on February 02, 2014, 11:35:07 pm
I don't disagree with the rationale.  But I have to say that I seriously don't see hardly any of these weapons as it is.  Nerfing them is just going to ever so slightly make them even more rare compared to the absolute infestation of 1h swords.
Title: Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 01:04:09 am
Quote from: San on January 29, 2014, 12:35:06 am

Pick internal balance: I believe the progression makes sense. Outside of the pickaxe, they get progressively stronger, shorter, and more dense. A little boring, but I believe that it works out. The fighting pick and military sickle have great secondary modes, but I think they are still a tad weak. Like the military hammer, the fighting pick receives some large penalties for reaching the extremes of the class' length, but I think it could at least have 98 speed.


WHAT??? If they are going to make Fighting pick 98 speed, they might as well can make all 1H swords 100+ speed.