cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Dexxtaa on January 28, 2014, 10:36:46 pm

Title: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 28, 2014, 10:36:46 pm
(click to show/hide)


About this proposition:
Currently, the “tick” system (preset amount of gold/xp per minute) is a successful method for the duel server as well as for conducting Strategus official battles. However, it does not encourage the growth of the cRPG player base due to the extremely unforgiving experience for brand new players.  The Golden Age “proximity” (gold/xp within a radius of you/teammate killing an opponent) gain system was a system that did NOT encourage strategy, but forced players in the public servers to conduct extremely efficient and close combat maneuvers and TACTICS.

The success of your team depended on which side could perform better as a large unit with an auxiliary force, instead of what the meta has currently dissolved into; “who can stay away from the battle while maintaining damage output.” In a nutshell, the proximity system was better suited to public servers, and not Strategus battles. While this proximity system discouraged sneaking around, or “kiting,” it did encourage every combatant engage in some form of close combat in order to maximize personal gain, and by proxy, team success.
(Can you believe ^that’s the tl;dr)


The Proximity system
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The Tick system: It’s original purpose and what it ended up becoming:
(click to show/hide)


Conclusions (for now):
(click to show/hide)


Updates:
A Hybrid of both Proximity and Tick systems as a suitable, lower effort model for xp/gold gain (the programming is already there, why not just take the best of both worlds?)
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/an-advocation-for-reinstatement-of-crpgs-proximity-xp-gold-gain-system/msg944729/#msg944729


~
edit 2014/2/3 3.36pm est: grammar, formatting and spelling
edit 2014/1/29 12.48pm est: Added "updates" section to highlight posts of interest (a coalescing of multiple opinions and personal input)
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 28, 2014, 10:37:34 pm
tl dr version: whales are mammals

also first post (reading now)


My thoughts are:  I think it would lead to more "teamwork" since people would be encouraged to fight together or near their teammates.  Infantry would be the dominant class on the battlefield (for gaining XP/Gold).  If players were able to afford it, then they could go afford to go cavalry, but they wouldn't be getting as much XP or Gold due to the nature of proximity xp/gold. 

I would suggest that we somehow hybrid our current and the old XP/Gold system (maybe keep upkeep as well, I don't mind that).  Your XP/Gold gain is a product of your score as well as how many rounds in a row your team wins (maybe just the one round is taken into account).  The score system would need a little tweaking, but I think it would be the best of both worlds.

I also would like to see bigger groups of people fighting.  I'd like to see shield walls being useful again.  I'd like to see people finding a reason to fight near their teammates (because the incentive to use teamwork to win rounds, is obviously not strong enough to influence people).  Most of the rounds end up with people mindlessly "W-Keying" until they reach the enemy infantry, fighting and dying, alt+tab and wait for next round.  Very rarely do I see people working together with 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 other players.  The few times I'm riding around on my horse and see a hoplite or pikeman protecting an archer or xbow, I smile and think "good for you" and am actually proud to see someone using teamwork (even though it means I can't pick that archer/xbow off). 

I think the gold/xp system could be a good way to incentivize people to use teamwork (even if it's "artificial" teamwork due to proximity bonus). 
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: [ptx] on January 28, 2014, 10:38:36 pm
This is not 6 pages in Word, i am disappoint.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: SugarHoe on January 28, 2014, 10:40:22 pm
tl dr version: whales are mammals

also first post (reading now)
no they're not, what are you gay
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: [ptx] on January 28, 2014, 10:45:18 pm
Whales are totally mammals and totally not homo.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 28, 2014, 10:45:59 pm
no they're not, what are you gay

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2536
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 28, 2014, 10:51:04 pm
Besides these two   three  two retards posting above me, I'd like to hear what people think about this, both for and against the proximity system.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: [ptx] on January 28, 2014, 10:54:20 pm
What proximity brings back to mind:
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 28, 2014, 10:56:20 pm
What proximity brings back to mind:
  • XP Barns
  • Camping in other places too
  • Mega rage, when you die (to ranged or cav?) early in the round
  • More camping

True, the camping part I don't like.  We've seen this on some open plains maps in current XP system where both sides camp a hill and are content to wait for MOTF to pop up (since the team that gets A.D.D. and rushes the enemy hill usually loses). 

That could be countered with MOTF popping up earlier in the rounds on one of three spots of the map (that is randomly chosen between the 3)...which I think is a great idea by itself. 
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 28, 2014, 11:02:36 pm
Well written and even though I never played with the proximity system, it's the xp barn videos that got me into crpg. With the xp barn being an example, I think their was quite alot od abusing of the system.

On the other hand, I also personally hate the leecher promoting xp system. It indeed feels like a grind and I believe there should be something like the proximity system reïmplemented (atleast for battle and dtv).
I think however the 3 different classes should get a different bonus and 'xp circle' around them:
*infantery should be pushed to stay together
*ranged should be pushed to stay together in some kind of formation shooting down.on the infantery from a hill etc..
*cavalry is a though one as they should both flank fighting infantery, ranged and flankers
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 28, 2014, 11:18:34 pm
Edited main post to clarify the state and persistence of xp/gold gain after character death.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2014, 11:27:23 pm
Only if upkeep gets removed as well.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Pestdoktor on January 28, 2014, 11:30:42 pm
Without having read your post, w/o gold gain after death, upkeep would probably need to be changed accordingly. Let me paste my suggestion from the IRC:

How about tying repairs to hits landed/blocked or dmg soaked for armors, of course then you sould only get gold/exp if one of the respective players is in the weapon range of the other.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Leesin on January 28, 2014, 11:51:49 pm
It was changed and never reverted for a reason, it just doesn't work in the big picture. Sure, it does have more than a few positives, but it also has just as much, if not more negatives. The current system, even with its flaws, is still better than radius based XP, because it rewards everyone on the team for winning, whatever they did. Whether that be staying with the main force, flanking, sniping from a distance, defending the rear or even archers from enemy cavalry etc, in the radius system all those roles are punished even if they had a massive hand in winning it for the team.

Thus you end up with two big grinding zergs, passive gameplay and a lot of camping.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Chestaclese on January 29, 2014, 12:03:01 am
Whatever flaws, the tick system made playing as a peasant a more enjoyable experience. In the current system peasants, if there are any, are scum for padding my kd. Every level under 30 is a grind that only a player who knows how fun the game can be at 31 will take.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: En_Dotter on January 29, 2014, 12:19:11 am
That system is bullshit. Similar is used in Mercenaries and it sucks balls. The reward for assisting the kill is not good enough to encourage team work but trying to kill as much as u can... Also ranged need exp to be able to support you melee my old friends. I never saw "tnx" from a melee guy that was surrounded by 3 other melee that survived cus i either killed all 3 or kept stunning them so he can either escape or kill them...
First, learn to respect other classes and embrace team work and then you can add something like this.
Just plain stupid way of giving exp and gold...
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Pestdoktor on January 29, 2014, 01:05:34 am
Without having read your post, w/o gold gain after death, upkeep would probably need to be changed accordingly. Let me paste my suggestion from the IRC:

How about tying repairs to hits landed/blocked or dmg soaked for armors, of course then you sould only get gold/exp if one of the respective players is in the weapon range of the other.

That being said, I love the multi system and see no reason why it should be removed, we just need to learn to work together...
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: StonedSteel on January 29, 2014, 01:21:36 am
Well something needs to be done, i came to late for the old xp system, by the sounds of it, i would have loved it. Idk what should be done, but i do know, something should be, game is at its lowest point right now for me.

Watching archers \ throwers top the board and get valor...disgusting.

I have to put my life on the line to get kills. Valor for Ranged?

Do you not know what the word Valor means?

There are a million and one shooting games out there, very many of them get it right.

There are very few melee games out there, very few of them get it even close.

Dont let the best melee game be dominated by shooting...just dont
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: LordRichrich on January 29, 2014, 01:41:02 am
Remember when we got told the multi system was temporary (not as in we'll replace it next week temporary but "we're working on a new system to be released") ah good fucking times eh
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 04:22:59 am
Do it as a test, or implement it every few maps. One in 5 for example. If people like it, add more of it.

We can have BOTH!

Spawn a message: Proximity mode XP is now ON!

In any case it may give more variable gameplay, and that would be good.

It's true the effect it often had was to emulate situations we never see nowadays. Like guarding a gate or a narrow passage. Seeing massive mayhem. It was in essence an artificial tool, but the situations it created definitely simulated situations most of us consider medieval:

Tight, packed battles defending or attacking some vantage point.

That's why we should test it. Bring it on!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Tzar on January 29, 2014, 06:55:08 am
I like this idea, but!!!

Something would have to be done about upkeep, or else cav/ranged and ninja´s will be ruined by upkeep.

Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: larlek on January 29, 2014, 07:03:57 am
+1

I've never liked the tick system at all. A change would be great.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Kafein on January 29, 2014, 08:59:35 am
What proximity brings back to mind:
  • XP Barns
  • Camping in other places too
  • Mega rage, when you die (to ranged or cav?) early in the round
  • More camping
  • Rewards staying alive as long as possible - thus, more camping, more passive play, less actual fighting

That's just not true. Do you even remember ? Gawd.

XP Barns : a good thing
Camping in other places : if you camp away from the enemy you don't get XP, therefore you stay near the fight and it's not camping nor delaying
Mega rage when you die early : not worse than with multi. And if you die in the right spot, you get all the xp nevertheless
Rewards staying alive as long as possible : same as above, that's just not true


All of that, and less xp and gold for asshats
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on January 29, 2014, 10:05:12 am
Too much of a scrub to have even played during the proximity XP system, since I started in mid 2012, but Dexxtaa paints a pretty picture and I fucking love pretty pictures and I fucking love Dexxtaa, so I approve completely.

Edit: Although I must say the whole "spawn flags when 5 are left" thing prevents jackass bad players from trying to clutch a round against 15 people, it also prevents actual good players from doing the same against 5. I'd rather have the latter than the former anyway. Fuck I'm drunk
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: [ptx] on January 29, 2014, 10:51:30 am
That's just not true. Do you even remember ? Gawd.

XP Barns : a good thing
Camping in other places : if you camp away from the enemy you don't get XP, therefore you stay near the fight and it's not camping nor delaying
Mega rage when you die early : not worse than with multi. And if you die in the right spot, you get all the xp nevertheless
Rewards staying alive as long as possible : same as above, that's just not true


All of that, and less xp and gold for asshats

Wat?

This is either a bad case of nostalgia glasses or you have not played much before multi system.

XP Barns are the worst thing.
You don't get it, EVERYONE CAMPED TOGETHER. As long as the map allowed at least 1 camping spot, it would be camped.
If you die early, you get NOTHING!
No, it was very true and there were enough people that exploited that - and that was back then, when minmaxing wasn't as huge as it is now.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Kafein on January 29, 2014, 11:22:13 am
Wat?

This is either a bad case of nostalgia glasses or you have not played much before multi system.

I believe I started playing cRPG mid august 2010, and played a fucking lot.

XP Barns are the worst thing.

Opinions I guess. I liked it.

You don't get it, EVERYONE CAMPED TOGETHER. As long as the map allowed at least 1 camping spot, it would be camped.

We don't define camping the same way. For me it's not camping if you are 3 meters away from the enemy and people next to you are actually fighting. It seems that for you "camping" means everybody is in the same place, regardless of whether they seek to avoid confrontation or not.

If you die early, you get NOTHING!

And right now if you team loses you get more or less nothing either.

No, it was very true and there were enough people that exploited that - and that was back then, when minmaxing wasn't as huge as it is now.

I don't see this is as very exploitable. If you don't help your team killing the enemy you don't get as much xp as you would if you did. Actually this is a much bigger problem with the multiplier.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Teeth on January 29, 2014, 11:42:03 am
First of all I think your point of 'look we had more players back then, thus this one change must have been bad' is breaking all laws of logic. Using this reasoning you could say that the addition of banners on the scoreboard was a bad change, because we had more players before this change.

Nevertheless, I prefer the old xp/gold system because it made all sorts of playstyles that are rage inducing to me much more unattractive. Horse archers, did not get much xp. Crossbowmen hiding in every corner of the map sniping did not get much xp. Valour whores camping a favourable position and not helping their team did not much xp. Groups of archers standing out in an open field away from the fight would not get much xp. Also a clan gank sticking together would not be able to roll the server as they do now, simply because everybody would stick together. Getting ganked because your teammates spread out everywhere would happen less often. It would incentivize people to fight together and that alone would fix many of my frustrations. Big teamfights make this game awesome if you ask me. It also incentivizes people to stay alive near the fight, which I think adds to any video game.

It has drawbacks ofcourse, one of them was that if you died early you would get no xp. In those times everybody had a shield though so that would not happen often if you stuck with your mates. The incentive to campenclosed locations with entire teams was somewhat lame, but still offered a good fight usually.

Those are small drawbacks which I do not find larger at all than the current terrible multi system which encourages bundle of sticksry on so much levels. The old system could be modified by implementing a base bonus for having your team win, or some point system based bonuses like valour. I also think ranged units should have the radius from their kills around the ranged player getting the kill, instead of the target dying. Perhaps the entire radius should be based on dealing damage instead of kills anyhow. In any case that system was much more fun for new players, having played my new player days in it. It really felt rewarding you just stayed alive the entire round and got yourself a lot of xp. The system taught you to get a shield, get a pitchfork and support the big guys as best you can.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Joker86 on January 29, 2014, 11:47:14 am
- make MOTF appear in the beginning and be the only condition to win the map
- reward infantry for being close to the flag, based on time ticks and flag "condition" (helping to raise it again from almost the ground grants more than camping a completely raised flag)
- reward archers and cavalry for kills
- once infantry gets killed within the flag area they keep on getting the same rewards, but at a slower rate
- once infantry gets killed outside the flag area or once cavalry and archers get killed, they get points for all kills on the map at a slower rate
- the time needed to win/lose determines the rewards, too. The faster you win or the slower you lose, the better.
- implement a commander system basing on different flags to place with different orders. Being around that flag and doing that order grants rewards

There you have teamplay, rewards according to the gameplay of the class, and a system which doesn't punish you for going on the toilet.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 29, 2014, 01:06:51 pm
- make MOTF appear in the beginning and be the only condition to win the map
No thanks, I really don't like that idea.

I like, however thomek's idea. It would be great if a new system was developped and tested every few maps.
Either a seriously changed proximity system or the long announced score system with a serious overhaul to the score calculation:
*proximity system, different xp and gold count based on the weapon you perform the dmg with?:
-inf should stick together and fight in a group
-ranged should also stick together on a distance of the infantry and shoot in the enemy mob (no kiting unless in a team, no f'ing shotgunning from point blank range).
-again, cav is a though one. They should be charging in packs and group up every time they want to charge again.
-gold: if it was really so bad before I suggest an overall higher gold gain than the old proximity system. Upkeep should certainly stay!
*A score based system, with a different score calculation:
-currently score is a bit too much in the odds of daggermen (if they play smart). It gives a bit too much points for the amount of damage they do because they are able to stab extremely fast.
-staying in the big mob is also not always the best way to gain score atm, waiting a bit and being able to survive a bit longer is often smarter than helping your team in the main charge.
-basically the same points as for the proximity system count here. Ranged should get proximity bonus from other ranged around them hitting targets and not from being close to the infantery. Cavalry should probably need to get some kind of support bonus for the infantry they managed to run over resulting in a friendly mplayer managing to kill that person.

That's all I can come up for now. I suggest implemtenting a very rough system and waiting for feedback. This wau certain classes can get a bit more or less xp for their actions so all (useful) classes get about the same
 
Yes, personally I don't really care if my troll alt gets massive xp or not. I have fun with it even when I'm playing against the system.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 29, 2014, 01:07:57 pm
Double post sorry
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: En_Dotter on January 29, 2014, 01:16:18 pm
1- make MOTF appear in the beginning and be the only condition to win the map
2- reward infantry for being close to the flag, based on time ticks and flag "condition" (helping to raise it again from almost the ground grants more than camping a completely raised flag)
3- reward archers and cavalry for kills
4- once infantry gets killed within the flag area they keep on getting the same rewards, but at a slower rate
5- once infantry gets killed outside the flag area or once cavalry and archers get killed, they get points for all kills on the map at a slower rate
6- the time needed to win/lose determines the rewards, too. The faster you win or the slower you lose, the better.
7- implement a commander system basing on different flags to place with different orders. Being around that flag and doing that order grants rewards

There you have teamplay, rewards according to the gameplay of the class, and a system which doesn't punish you for going on the toilet.
1 - I dont know if this is good or bad so i wont comment any more on it
2 - Seems ok
3 - Not ok - While i get a lot of kills on EU 1 and it would suite me (cus of my 24/24 8pd 184 archery build) its not rly good. A lot of cav and archers support infantry by bumps/staggers and they dont get kills. Reward based on dmg delt for cav/ranged
4 - Seems ok
5 - Again not for kills but for the damage dealt
6 - Seems ok
7 - Seems ok
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Spartacus on January 29, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
First of all I would like to say that I actually played back then and i freakin loved it but:
1. Way too many ppl dont care for gold anymore, since almost everyone has already enough gold. So I think upkeep would have to increase.
2. I think a proximity based exp system would not encourage new players to stay longer. It is still the same grind.
3. We would need another system for siege since the system back then was a pain in the butt.
4. In siege is also way more fighting so more xp would float around.
to be continued but gtg
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Joker86 on January 29, 2014, 03:45:53 pm
1 - I dont know if this is good or bad so i wont comment any more on it
2 - Seems ok
3 - Not ok - While i get a lot of kills on EU 1 and it would suite me (cus of my 24/24 8pd 184 archery build) its not rly good. A lot of cav and archers support infantry by bumps/staggers and they dont get kills. Reward based on dmg delt for cav/ranged
4 - Seems ok
5 - Again not for kills but for the damage dealt
6 - Seems ok
7 - Seems ok

Perfectly fine with that. It was a short first idea anyway, something like a rough sketch, nothing finalzed.

Edit: when I think about it correctly, I think my second last topic was also about giving an alternative to the multiplier system. The idea was that kills are rewarded, but only those which are scored by others, if YOU score a kill you don't get ANYTHING for it. And at the end of the round the percentage you receive of the rewards you collected during the round is determined by the amount of teammates who survived that round. The idea was to heavily support and ecourage teamplay, but the general reception wasn't really good, so I don't know...
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Casimir on January 29, 2014, 03:57:33 pm
The tick system isn't perfect, but i think the proximity system punishes too many classes in comparison.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 29, 2014, 04:13:12 pm
The tick system isn't perfect, but i think the proximity system punishes too many classes in comparison.

What about a hybrid of the two systems.  We already have "score" which has some components of the proximity system built into it.  What if XP/Gold was based more on score?  The score system would need to be tweaked some however.  Maybe score + multiplier for rounds your team wins is what gives you gold/xp? 
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 04:52:00 pm
1st of all I don't care if Ninjas get less XP. It's a choice we make, to suffer in frustration..

Anyway, I think to have BOTH system in place is better than changing to proximity, modifying the current one, or doing nothing.

Variation is key here. Some battles it's all about winning and freedom of tactics, others about grouping up and thus getting a simulated medieval experience.

@Joker:  Spawning the flag immediately is a bad idea, because proximity system is all about defending or attacking vantage points like a hilltop, a gateway, or a house. Sure it will be a bit unbalanced at times, but fun still. I remember 2 teams camping each their house in Nord Town i.ex.. :D

chadz, dig up the code and pls implement. :)
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: kinngrimm on January 29, 2014, 05:12:52 pm
If you want good teamplay, get your clan onto teamspeak, get someone to call the shots. But trying to solve it by artificially supporting only "certain" strategies, no thank you.
Best team with best suitable strategy depending on terrain and team composition should win.
If you pressure the players into a certain playstyle or strategy, you take away freedom of choice and also would not gratify those who actually out of their own choice would try team work. From the chaos priciples you can also say that teamwork is not always the winning factor, we have seen it often enough. On the other hand banner stacking of really good players, not because there is so much effort of teamwork and coordination pfff, does give advantages. Gank squads in EU1 often clash against each other and whoever gets lucky there will then gank further, teamwork i dont see there as major factor either, but who gets to gank whom first and therefor could overwhelm others afterwards and that in the shortest amount of time possible.

With more and more high level players and less and less lower level players, you also dont value so much anymore a few heros, only numbers count, if your nostalgic gets you thinking about these past moments where your team won, with a few tincans upfront and lots of others behind waiting if your own teams tincan would win or if the enemy tincans would at some point rush in and rofl stomp the remaining lightly armored and lower level and often not very experienced players ... these times wont come back as most of the peasents nowadays are fake peasents trying to gut you  :rolleyes: and being able to.

If you want more players in the community, advertise the game to reallife friends and family or to those you play other games with or wait for the next steam sale.

What proximity brings back to mind:
  • XP Barns
  • Camping in other places too
  • Mega rage, when you die (to ranged or cav?) early in the round
  • More camping
  • Rewards staying alive as long as possible - thus, more camping, more passive play, less actual fighting
While camping at times may still work, mostly due to flags it doesnt anymore or not for the whole map. That i see as a good thing. Flancing already has become nearly impossible due to ranged investations even in small groups while it may still have huge impact when successfull. Taking away the XP from flankers will make them obsolete. GG  :rolleyes:
What we have atm is often already what we had with the XP Barns, 2 big blobs clashing against each other. That you see people trying to get away from these mega blobs has different reasons though.
Who wants to be all the time in a clusterfuck of teamhits? Who doesnt want at times a duel situation, even if interrupted at a point? How is it that these blobs are mostly close to structures? Why are open terrain maps often so dreaded(hint: all HA/HX in one team or even most of ranged in one team, or all cav in one team)
For me not the XP system, but the team balancing system is what really needs some love!

...
On the other hand, I also personally hate the leecher promoting xp system....
autokick leechers
The time and amount of energy put into the XP system could easily solve that problem.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 29, 2014, 08:12:43 pm
(click to show/hide)

A Hybrid System: Advantages and Disadvantages
Advantages and Disadvantages
To address most of the posts in here regarding some form of "hybrid" system, I do like that approach. Given that time and effort have been put into the tick system, I'm sure accommodations could be made to re-engineer one type of /xp gold system or the other for the purpose of taking the best of both worlds.

For example, the hybrid system would feature proximity based xp/gold gain, except with the addition of team multipliers for wins, and the reset of the multiplier for losses. Valor could continue to be based on damage output, since it really solves itself with a proximity system; the highest scoring individual(s) would HAVE to be in the thick of the fight in order to deal that kind of damage (instead of cherry picking on the outskirts of buttfuck nowhere).

Of course, adjustments should be made to accommodate the current gameplay culture of the community: the xp/gold "ring" would be made multiple times larger than it was (used to be small, aroudn 25 feet = 7.5ish meters from the point of death) to accommodate the "strategy" that is currently favored by the sneaky snails/ ranged.

Further, I believe this was what it was, but the xp/gold gain radius was relative to the killer, and not the death. So if you stood next to an archer who made a kill, the "suporting" xp/gold would be issued to the person next to the archer, too. This could also serve to make the game a little more central around the archers in the early game (where both teams are closing, but haven't made melee contact), who would feel left out should just the "strict" proximity system be used. Some kind of solution would have to be formulated for archer kills from a mile away (1.6km) while the victim was in a fight with teammates, since the battling teammate should be considered the 'supporting killer.'

Personally, I think that the xp/gain should be equal to every teammate within the xp/gold ring, otherwise that would encourage killwhoring, instead of teamwork.

Population ebbs and flows: Changes in server traffic
Finally, the most glaring problem I see with a proximity based system would be the population in and of itself. If the server numbers are low, then the resulting xp/gold gain would inherently be low. And during prime time, the gain would be significantly higher. This, in my opinion, would amplify the peaks and troughs of the in-game population, given the current active player base: down times will see almost empty servers, primetime would probably see a full server. HOWEVER, this also means that siege would see more love, since it's more fun to dick around in siege when the population is low.

And perhaps the swell of server population density around peak periods would encourage newer players to frequent this game, especially since prime time is really when the most casual players are free.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Sauce on January 29, 2014, 09:48:23 pm
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Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Lichen on January 30, 2014, 12:33:10 am
I don't play battle anymore because of the xp system. It is beyond frustrating to be at the mercy of seemingly random luck putting you on the winning or losing team. I play the same and it makes almost NO difference if you are on the weaker team. Then when you're on the winning team you can suck tremendously and still win round after round simply because you got put on the superior team. It is too frustrating and not fun at all when you feel you can't control how well you are rewarded an it's just up to luck of the draw.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 08:41:11 pm
I thought that the devs were working on a system that was a hyrbid and that the installation of the score system was the first step in that...not sure what happened to that.

I'm guessing it will be in Melee of course, but it would be nice if they could implement some stuff now...because crpg is suffering hard from a couple things like Team Balancer, Game Modes, and EXP system.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Breidr on February 07, 2014, 09:20:46 pm
I don't know about the old system, but I've been thinking that something needs to change.  I can't really offer any suggestions, but I just wanted to pop in and give this thread some support in the hopes that someone looks into it.

cRPG is great, but it's really rough on new players.  I hit gen 2 not too long ago, and I'm finding little desire to retire again.  Character progression is pretty much a wall right now.  Yes, I can STF, but if I was going to do that, I might as well go play Native.  I hate the inventory system, but at least the system is more "balanced."  Right now I'm lucky if my multi stays above x2, and most of the time it just feels like I'm getting rolled.  This is compounded by the fact that off peak players seem extremely toxic and competitive, at least in my experience.

With all the problems with the EXP system and team balancing, it's really tough to stick it out in this mod.  It seems you either roll with a clan, or grind your eyeballs out, and for what?  The rewards don't even seem that great as time goes on.

Also, the current system seems to make siege pointless for leveling up, which is something I'd like to play, but the rewards are even less than battle.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Xeen on February 09, 2014, 01:06:03 pm
It sounds like most of your issue revolves around the central tactic to winning in the battle game mode, which is locking as many people on the other team out of interaction as possible.  So uh, let's just fix battle. 
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: kinngrimm on February 09, 2014, 02:04:20 pm
Aslong i can flank and still get the same amount of XP, as i do my job mostly on the flanks to then backstab formations or campers, aslong that is still a viable play, i am ok with pretty much any kind of XP system.

If you but force by the system players into a certain playstyle, deny other playstyles or make them that much less gratifying to the point it would not make sense to play in that way. I would not have a problem to gain slightly less XP if i am  all on my own, trying to solo a flank, aslong i get additionally to killing ranged my old friends behind some tree or bush still some XP for it. Killing the ranged my old friends is already very gratifying for me personally, still with no XP how would i ever reach lvl 37  :lol:
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Adamar on February 09, 2014, 03:17:46 pm
People need to rush less, not more. One of the main points of multiplayer games is the teamplay.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: RandomDude on February 10, 2014, 03:33:15 pm
The only thing I can disagree with in the OP is about "proximity gain" making it better for lvl 1-15.

Sure those new players are complaining that they die easily and cant compete and have crap gear?

Regardless, they can always make a STF.

It would be a nice blast from the past to do the XP BARN!! again.

Ill have to perfect dying in the middle of the battleground again.

Actually - proximity would be even worse for newer players because they will probably be couched or shot before they make it to the main battle area.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 10, 2014, 07:01:54 pm
Randomdude, you're assuming people aren't staying together as if they were playing the tick system still.

I got blasted plenty of times in my peasant phase of cRPG when it was proximity. Sure it was dumb, but we're not looking for 100% survival rate. We're looking to increase the fun factor in general for new players, which will in turn improve new player retention.

It's not like the same peasant is going to get put down before he gets to the battle *every single round.* If they die before hitting the battle in one round, they'll probably be more conscious of moving in cover in the future (in which case, you can still get shot, but that mostly pertains to luck, not so much staying with the team).

That said, the amount of arrows theoretically wouldn't be as high, based on the community at large who would be more interested in personal gain, which would mean more melee.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Breidr on February 11, 2014, 05:41:11 am
I'm going to bump this thread again.

I don't care how it gets done, I just want to see a change in the EXP system.  I will probably stop playing again after I retire this gen.  It's just not fun.  I am at a 1x multiplier almost all the time.  I have roughly 22 1/2 hours to level 31, and that's assuming I keep a 2x all the time.  Even with a 3x that time is still 15 hours.  That's a long time, considering I am playing a game.  It actually looks more like a job, 30 hour work week is about what I do now.

Yes, I understand that the game isn't completely about EXP.  Removing that from the equation for a moment, the game still has problems.  I think I would be more inclined to grind if teams were more balanced.  One of the big problems I have with this game is that team balanced mostly seems extremely one sided.  The system actually REWARDS team stacking, something I have a big problem with.

Stop rewarding the team so much and reward the player more.  This is the first step.  Put me in control of my progression.

Team balancing is a bit trickier and I'm not sure how to address that.  It's not like we have a matchmaking system in place.

So, I would like to see the EXP system reevaluated to be more player centric, as opposed to team centric.  Even more so, I think players would be more apt to grind if it didn't feel so unforgiving.  Nothing more demotivating than being stuck at 1x with a team that keeps getting rolled.  I've got better uses for time, especially when I'm looking at 20+ hours of that crap.  It's more work than fun at that point.

I would also like to point out that DTV is more profitable than playing Battle, at least for me.  Does that seem wrong to anyone else?
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: BarBeQ on July 02, 2014, 12:34:03 pm
Very easy solution:
Bring back proximity system BUT keep upkeep costs and give higher amounts of xp and gold.
Also if there is a given amount of damage on the server even higher amounts of xp and gold can be obtained.
<<< im not sure that can be done with all that hardcoded bullshit.
Title: Re: An advocation for reinstatement of cRPG’s proximity XP/Gold gain system
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2014, 02:49:27 pm
  • More camping
  • Rewards staying alive as long as possible - thus, more camping, more passive play, less actual fighting

Wait, what ?

Did you even play back then ? Because I can't fathom how you would say that if you are not either lying or talking out of your ass.