First : -1 damage from all non loomed bowsto
First : -2 damage from all non loomed bows
You have my support, if that means anything to you. Much better than current situation, that's for sure.Of course it means something. Why did you say so?
I think everyone would just use long bow, Rus and horn bow, loosing that much accuracy and missile speed from lower tier bows would make them pretty poor option. plus an upkeep drop from long bow and rus would make them more appealing and you would probably end up with more complaints when everyone is getting hit by longbows. I think maybe keep the upkeep the same for higher tier bows and keep your price changes to the cheaper bows,so they cost more. then drop the speed rating of the lower tier bows by two or three points.I must say I didn't really thought of that, but imo it is not so nice for long and rus bow users to lose plenty of gold. They always seemed to cost too much for me (I used long bow for one gen).
it may even be a good idea to revert the loom patch to be honest, i didnt really want to but there where less archers around when doing well required loomed equipment. having MW bows do the damage that bows do now, and regular do 3 less damageI must say, non-loomed archery was really under powered and overall extremely annoying for the user. Maybe it was there for the greater good (less archers) but it also made some new people to lose interest to the mod (my cousin gave up playing because of that). It was a big difference in damage percentage. I think nerfing a little bit like this, might make people to change their class to something else. Similar to the trend behaviour I explained above. Again, that's my theory.
This isn't internal balance, it is a flat out nerf to every 1 slot bow.It is impossible not to touch the other balance parts, when working on such a thing like this. Still, it is sad to see that you see this suggestion from a nerf-buff perspective (I know you use a nomad bow on horse). I tried to make every bow to have a reason to use, unlike before.
This isn't internal balance, it is a flat out nerf to every 1 slot bow.
(everyone should stop lobbying anyway).
It is a very bad idea and one not thought through.
Lower missile speed will result in a shorter range. Shorter range means you don't need as much WM to be accurate. Strength builds with high PD will begin popping up like mushrooms. Damage done will increase. It also makes xbow's the only distance ranged with their speeding bullet bolts.
Then there is the speed bonus. Cavalry charging an infantry hill are going to start losing their horse in 1 shot. HA and HX will begin to kill lightly armored in one shot and do significant damage to plate. It will also break shields faster.
Hey, maybe you are on to something after all! I will lose some range but become a 1 shot demon instead. I reckon I'll take that. So go on ahead.
Everyone but you? Then delete this thread if you want lobbying to stop. Hypocrite :rolleyes:
Of course, I don't think lower missile speed will affect the range players choose to shoot from, at least not significantly.What are u talking about???
The biggest problem is, devs knows nothing about archery itself. The proof of my thoughts, was the patch which increased missile speed by +6 to +10 in some bows, which is just way too huge difference. As archer, I feel the difference between every single missile speed - buffing bows by 6 or 10 missile speed at one time was just crazy.Of course, I don't think lower missile speed will affect the range players choose to shoot from, at least not significantly.What are u talking about???
The change of missile speed made Nomad bow the ultimate strategus siege weapon. The defender archers couldnt reach me properly with their long/rus bows, while i was hsing them from rly far. I would just pull the arrows from the ground in front of me afterwards and continue. Missile speed change really dictated the "power" of the bows during strat sieges. Too bad some factions didnt realize that on time.
The biggest problem is, devs knows nothing about archery itself. The proof of my thoughts, was the patch which increased missile speed by +6 to +10 in some bows, which is just way too huge difference. As archer, I feel the difference between every single missile speed - buffing bows by 6 or 10 missile speed at one time was just crazy.We explained the decision to make the 1 slot bows have higher missile speed several times in the past. I wanted to make the lower tier bows actually see usage, rather than only ever seeing three bows on the servers. And to do that, we created buffs that simulated real world arrow weight differences. Unfortunately, dictating which bows can use what arrows, isn't an option, so this is what you got. I think it works quite nicely, and as urist and shik have both previously stated, is a better representation of how the actual bows would act in the real world. Also, weapon missile speed != the speed the missile moves, it is only a partial influencer.
I suspect devs also don't know higher missile speed means higher damage.
I think putting good easy to use ranged weapons in the hands of poor players is the wrong way to do "easy to learn hard to master" in cRPG. Killing a melee player with ranged damage is 10x easier than killing a ranged as a melee. You have to get in range, then you have manual block which can make fights last forever or allow them to get towards team mates, 1 handers (0 slot even) were buffed too much etc. Damage from range is such a good ability that it should be something you have to work hard at to use.I don't agree with the first part, but I can certainly see that it's possible they were "buffed too much". I don't believe I ever said anything contrary to this.
Yes, there were buffed too much. While they deal less damage than the big bows, it's incredibly easy to score a headshot with those bows (if a player is pure archer and has more than 170 wpf in archery). Also because of higher missile speed than bigger bows, they are actually better at long range shooting. Accuracy and long range combined, is what makes them OP. Low damage on paper, becomes negligible in practice.What's wrong with a player actually getting rewarded for hitting a small hitbox though? I mean, isn't that what player skill should be? If we're not rewarding players for hitting a head hitbox, then what are we rewarding them for? At this point, all I see is QQ. I mean, we're not playing counter-strike here, projectiles aren't instant, regardless of how fast you think the arrows are. Heads provide more damage sure, but limbs give huge damage penalties. You say it's easy, but I'm pretty damn sure less than 10% of people's shots result in a headshot. I don't think there's a single player in this community who can consistently land headshots 30/40 % of the time.
In practice most headshots are utterly random. Its different to aiming a swing at a head, there is a lot of randomness involved which increases the frustration involved. Not only can you be in a situation were you have no course of action to take but you also get punished for no apparent reason. I can't imagine random headshots are fun for anyonePersonally, I feel like the only headshots that are random, are ones from throwers(because throwing is never very accurate) and very long distance shots.
Making headshots 1 shot kills like they are now would only really work if the body shots didn't also kill in such few hits.
At this point, all I see is QQ.
So you wanna go that path, Paul knows everything, rest are scum path? Well in that case, good luck in your future endeavors, Tydeus. Won't be bothering you anymore. You might want to check my thread tho, there is fairly high level of votes in here (345 players voted). 26.4 percent blame balancers (you and Paul) for bad state of the mod. That is 91 players, more than usually play on NA1, NA2 and NA7 combined, on prime time.Actually, Urist and I can't really seem to come to an agreement on whether or not horse ranged is problematic and needs addressing. Regardless, we both know there has been a lot of QQ for ages about it, so we know you have to take things with a grain of salt. If your argument doesn't make sense or your complaint has to do with player skill being rewarded(getting rewarded for hitting a player in the head) then you've kinda just complained about the absolute last thing that we'd ever want to nerf and therefore can't really be taken seriously in a debate(not worth the time to debate with, we can't just debate with everybody who has complaints, there has to be some sort of filter. Figure out how to add 24 more hours in a day, without lessening lifespan in years, then I'm sure things will change).
Personally, I feel like the only headshots that are random, are ones from very long distance shots.
I don't agree and is the main reason I get irritated over the missile speed reductions. For long range, your missile will be coming in at an arc from above. It actually gives you a better chance at getting a head shot. Plus, I love to pick out a xbow or archer who is standing on a hill on the other side of the map blithely spamming arrows into the melee scrum, when suddenly they find themselves a target and can't figure out from where. Archers who can take out the enemy cavalry from long range and the enemy ranged from long range end up with more consistent multipliers than those who don't. In fact, I would love to see the % of rounds played with a multiplier (and which multiplier) than any K/D ratio on the webpage. That might actually get some people to use real team tactics.
Well, skill has to exist somewhere. The cone of fire mechanic cannot be compensated with skill, while low missile speeds can. To me that's all there is to it. Of course, if the devs manage to modifiy the way the COF evolves in a way that makes timing shots more important, why not do that instead. But I don't see that happening in the near future.
You really don't play an archer do you?
Long range shots can only be done through skill. Even with the current arrow speed, you still have to aim about an inch or so above your target, without being able to see where your shots are landing (unless you are a goddamned pink arrow plus the size of throwing lance cheater), and if you are off by 1/32 of an inch (2.5 cm and if off by an 0.08 of a cm) you will miss, and that is for a stationary target. If your target is moving, you then have to also calculate their speed, adjust to the left or right by up to an inch or more, more especially if your target is a horse, as well as aim an inch or so above the target depending upon the actual distance, and then hope they don't change direction. And if your CoF isn't close to pinpoint by having 190 wpf or more, luck is also in play. That means a dedicated archer is better than one that isn't because it is about skill in making the shots. Even with medium shots you still have to adjust for the drop of the arrow, and with shorter range you still have to adjust for speed of the target, especially when aiming for the much smaller head target. If someone is standing still? Sure, not as hard, but they deserve what they get for standing in one spot and making themselves an easy target.
As for low missile speed being required for skill? Actually low missile speed adds an additional layer of luck because then it is elementary for any melee or even a horse (by rearing or just turning) to avoid a missile. It is far too easy.
Look, I hate to break out the "you just suck at it" card on you, but as much as you complain about the current missile speed making it impossible to dodge a missile, that is the only conclusion that I can make. Even using the nomad with the highest current missile speed, there are many players who can both dodge the arrow and still advance towards an archer at short range. Why? They don't wait to see the missile before they are reacting to the archers aim.
Now I will concede that the ones who can do it consistently generally have a good athletic and thus a balanced or agility build. But if strength builds can't do it, then so what????. I am damned tired of strength builds who want to have the highest amount of armor, swing as fast as an agility build that has more wpf, run down anyone with more athletics then they have, and dodge arrows like a D&D monk. Lowering missile speed will just be more pandering to these tincan wanttohaveitalls, and that is just plain bullshit. :!:
And right now is it far too easy to evade a correctly aimed missile from the moment it is shot? I beg to differ. At which distance does that even become possible? My argument is that CoF mechanics are random while projectile speed isn't. You say it's "random" because it depends on the actions of the guy you are shooting at, but that's exactly the point. A game where if you shoot correctly there is no way to evade your shot, is simply not skill based. Or rather, not fun for those that hit a wall in their skill progression because no amount of skill allows them to do that. Just as in melee combat, when you attack your opponent doesn't randomly block, that's his input, and that's what makes melee combat so dynamic.
I don't wish to directly nerf archery here, as I believe those slower missiles should be traded for something else, like a tighter CoF.
You need to look at yourself, not the missile speed, because many players are doing what you claim is impossible. To boot, I can already do a 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3 before a missile hits at long range. You really think it should take longer?? You should be able to anticipate where a player will be in 4 seconds? 5 seconds? 6? To get a tighter CoF is elementary, invest the WPF for it.