cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kafein on January 17, 2014, 08:10:35 am
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Here's the idea: right now when a shielder attacks, he's wide open to be shot center of mass from the front, left side and back and headshot from everywhere. This is especially true for left swings and overheads.
This has the side effect of forcing shielders to "bump" archers and xbowmen while keeping their block up in order to disrupt their aim and allow a safe attack. Due to the fact that this "bump" has no range at all, it is easy to just kick someone attempting it against you and run away. But the lack of reach, weakness of effect and the delay of that bump also delays the fight much longer than it should, putting the shielder under unnecessary danger from third parties.
What I suggest is to change the 1h/shield attack animations in a way that keeps the shield in front of the character. The running animations could be changed in a similar way, giving some useful passive range protection to running shielders. Of course all that animation stuff is not really feasible as I doubt the cRPG team has the resources to do that.
So, I also suggest a change in the ranged bump mechanics to make it stronger and more useful. For example, instead of disrupting the aim it could knock people down, or make them drop their ranged weapon automatically, leaving them unarmed. More importantly, I think the trigger conditions should be changed in favor of the shielder. Ideally, it should trigger automatically as soon as the shielder enters something like the range equivalent of a length 45 weapon. This sounds like a very powerful move but the intent here is to force the ranged player to stop delaying, play it safe and get a melee weapon as soon as the shielder enters a 1 or 2 meters radius instead of attempting a trick shot.
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^Try being a hoplite approaching a crossbowman
Completely unable to drop block until they are stunned at which point you are too close to attack. Not to mention crossbowman have strong melee builds if they desire
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I think the shield bump/bash should equal the kick in it's effect.
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Shield coverage against ranged: not a bad idea but if it covers every part of the front (and probably right side), using the shield in right click mode will be pointless against ranged. Needs to be carefully planned. Also it would be pretty cool if shield skill would give some bonuses to this effect too.
Ranged bump: you can always execute a quick shield bash to knock archers down. Bumping is enough for me, so I rarely use it on such occasions but it is there and is pretty useful so far I've seen.
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changing the animations would also make sheilders harder to read in melee if the sheild is infront of them when they do attacks, so i dont think thats the best idea
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1h/sh animations:
- stab is fine
- left swing for reality and balancing purposes should stay the same
- right swing and overhead, i can imagine with better shield coverage.
increasing the bump sensitivity/activasion range when it would become active, i can see that as a good way to aproach the problem of the close combat shotgun situations we know from xbow and also bows.
Question is where to set the minimum range to activate teh bump effect.
I would put it at the maximum range of any melee weapon aproaching.
My steel pick would be neglectable so to speak ^^, but if someone with a longspear comes in stab range, then the ranged dude wouldnt just wait for a last shot, but needs his weapon in his hand.
A combination of different weapons approaching would lead to formation being perahps also in this way preferable, as you would have behind a shieldwall, the piker who has a secondary funtion with this change in mind, to decrease the enemies abilites to shoot to the last second.
I like both suggestions, and while the cRPG devs may not be able to provide the animations, perhaps we can find in other mods of M&B such animations which then could be adapted for cRPG?
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I think the shield bump/bash should equal the kick in it's effect.
So you want the shield bash to reach 3 meters in front of you? I say this as a shielder...
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I think the shield bump/bash should equal the kick in it's effect.
for clarification bump!=bash.
I thought with 'bump' has been implied, that ranged cant shoot when a melee player of opposing team gets too close. The shield bash if not just fine, maybe even reduced a touch, kicks need definetly a reduction in range and angle.
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I would like this against horse ranged at least..
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I would like this against horse ranged at least..
while from a realisim aspect, they would not be that much influenced by players below them on the ground even though pretty close. If we cant find a different way to balance horse ranged then i would agree. At least then both counter each other out horse bump(dmg&interrupt) vs infantry bump(no dmg but interrupt vs ranged). Infantry still gets bumped and damage, but no shots by ranged cav when too close.
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I just wish the defensive shield nudge didn't leave the shielder wide open to attack before it landed. I can't count the number of times I've ran up to an archer/xbowman/thrower, hit V, but still got shot in the face before the nudge landed. The shield should continue to block melee/projectiles during the early part of the nudge animation. You can leave the shielder open to attack for a long time late in the nudge animation, but making them vulnerable in the early part of the animation negates the purpose of this nudge.
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I just wish the defensive shield nudge didn't leave the shielder wide open to attack before it landed. I can't count the number of times I've ran up to an archer/xbowman/thrower, hit V, but still got shot in the face before the nudge landed. The shield should continue to block melee/projectiles during the early part of the nudge animation. You can leave the shielder open to attack for a long time late in the nudge animation, but making them vulnerable in the early part of the animation negates the purpose of this nudge.
mmm, not a bad idear either, from a realistic point of view perhaps better then increasing the bump activation range. From a (mindless ^^) playability point of view i would prefer the increase of range when the bump would be activated when ranged tries to shoot while too close to melee player with drawn melee weapon.
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mmm, not a bad idear either, from a realistic point of view perhaps better then increasing the bump activation range. From a (mindless ^^) playability point of view i would prefer the increase of range when the bump would be activated when ranged tries to shoot while too close to melee player with drawn melee weapon.
I don't see why an archer should be bumped because an enemy is fighting one of their allies nearby. The defensive shield nudge should be the primary way to interrupt archers; right now it's suicide because it leave the nudger open to an arrow in the face before the nudge lands.
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I don't see why an archer should be bumped because an enemy is fighting one of their allies nearby. The defensive shield nudge should be the primary way to interrupt archers; right now it's suicide because it leave the nudger open to an arrow in the face before the nudge lands.
Perhaps we need to talk more specifically to get an undertanding what we both imagine.
Lets say the current bump to ranged, happens when you are in reach of a weapon length of 40 cm. I have no idear if that is the actual value, lets just asume it would be the case.
Now increasing this only by half onto 60cm, would achiev that the missreading of approaching melee and the ability to sidestrave shoot or kick shoot in the face or shoot straight in the face in the last moment when the shield opens, i magine would be taken away already. That should also compensate for ping differances to some extent. Supporting Ranged Players who are further away like 100 cm(lower limit of polearms/2h upper limit of 1h), would still be able to shoot.
That would be what i had in mind.
That change i dont see as a) very drastic b) very hard to achieve from a programming stance c) less realistic then the nudge perhaps d) easier to get used to
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Perhaps we need to talk more specifically to get an undertanding what we both imagine.
Lets say the current bump to ranged, happens when you are in reach of a weapon length of 40 cm. I have no idear if that is the actual value, lets just asume it would be the case.
Now increasing this only by half onto 60cm, would achiev that the missreading of approaching melee and the ability to sidestrave shoot or kick shoot in the face or shoot straight in the face in the last moment when the shield opens, i magine would be taken away already. That should also compensate for ping differances to some extent. Supporting Ranged Players who are further away like 100 cm(lower limit of polearms/2h upper limit of 1h), would still be able to shoot.
That would be what i had in mind.
That change i dont see as a) very drastic b) very hard to achieve from a programming stance c) less realistic then the nudge perhaps d) easier to get used to
I just don't like passive mechanics; archers/xbowmen/throwers should be able to go around shotgunning people without having to worry about being arbitrarily bumped if that's their playstyle, but conversely I should be able to break their nose with my shield without getting a projectile jabbed into one of my eye sockets.
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I just don't like passive mechanics; archers/xbowmen/throwers should be able to go around shotgunning people without having to worry about being arbitrarily bumped if that's their playstyle, but conversely I should be able to break their nose with my shield without getting a projectile jabbed into one of my eye sockets.
depends on the passive mechanic, f.e. for throwers i would love it, if they would automaticly change weapon modes when someone comes into bump range, i still fuck up so often while pressing the weapon mode switch button :rolleyes:
I do like your idear more then the one of Kafein to increase the bump range. I just wanted to point out how i would imagine it, as some may think yeah we are in pike range now and they cant use the bows anymore. While still that seems a viable option to me, too, that different weapon length would have different bump ranges(as they could reach the opponent already with their weapon). The option "only" to buff shields with the nudge being less prone to shots within the animation, seems to me to be more intuitive and perhaps it would get me even to consider more often to use the nudge, then i do now.
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I just don't like passive mechanics; archers/xbowmen/throwers should be able to go around shotgunning people without having to worry about being arbitrarily bumped if that's their playstyle, but conversely I should be able to break their nose with my shield without getting a projectile jabbed into one of my eye sockets.
The problem is see with this is that the shield bash is already a powerful tool to be used in melee ganking situations. A buff to it wouldn't discriminate between use against ranged and other uses.
I also think that as a high risk high reward move, shotgunning is kind of fun, but in the end it does more harm than good by further making melee an optional thing for archers (crossbowmen almost always have some melee).
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The problem is see with this is that the shield bash is already a powerful tool to be used in melee ganking situations. A buff to it wouldn't discriminate between use against ranged and other uses.
I also think that as a high risk high reward move, shotgunning is kind of fun, but in the end it does more harm than good by further making melee an optional thing for archers (crossbowmen almost always have some melee).
The defensive shield nudge (Shield Shove) is the worst of all the nudge types for "ganking", since it rapidly moves the target away from their current location. If you and your allies are ganking someone and you Shield Shove them, it usually results in your allies teamhitting you, because you just shoved the enemy out of the way very quickly. Shield shove is primarily used to push people off ledges to their death, but it's risky for this application as well since it leaves you open so long before it lands. I always laugh when I'm getting ganked and some moron shielder shoves me out of harms away, allowing me to make a clean escape.
The neutral shield nudge (Quick Shield Bash) is by far the best nudge for "ganks" as well as 1v1, since it's fast and it doesn't move your target much (you can sometimes get behind them during the stun). I use this one pretty much every 6 seconds, and I don't understand while more shielders don't employ it.