cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: nayman on December 11, 2013, 08:43:48 am

Title: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: nayman on December 11, 2013, 08:43:48 am
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Speed:99
Length:106
Thrust:23 pierce
Swing:37 cut
Upkeep:466 gold

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Speed:100
Length:95
Thrust:18 pierce
Swing:38 cut
Upkeep:656 gold

i've always thought about unjust ratio between katana and LS. both are supa-dupa, but LS is a bit overestimated and katana is underestimated in this mod. here is a comparative video to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EDkoj932YFo

as it is seen in the video, katana is better both in cutting and swinging,and it is better in speed.
suggesting all these changes would be rdcls, so i suggest only to decrease LS cut dmg by 1 (to 36), and increase katana's cutting dmg by 1 and piercing dmg by 2 (to 39 and 20 respectivly). by the way it would be justful according to their upkeep. for today katana ain't worth it's upkeep.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 11, 2013, 08:55:22 am
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Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Molly on December 11, 2013, 09:00:22 am
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Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Berserkadin on December 11, 2013, 09:11:30 am
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Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 11, 2013, 09:24:16 am
As a spamming katana user since 2012 (after I left my Bec De OP :( ) I would like to see a katana buff, as does everyone with a favorite weapon :P

But the katana does not really need any buff over the Longsword, it already got buffed enough in previous patches, more reach and more pierce (finally!). Katana is fine as it is.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Logen on December 11, 2013, 09:26:22 am
Did Thomek pay you for this?
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Gmnotutoo on December 11, 2013, 09:40:17 am
Look this is simple physics. The Katana is the lightest sword of that class and the shortest, it should have the best speed rank out of the bastard, hbs, and longsword. It should also have lower damages to represent the lighter blade.

If I swung two baseballs bats that both have the same weight except one was longer, I'd swing the shorter bat faster because it is more compact. The bastard sword currently has 1 more speed rank than the katana despite being heavier and longer.

Seriously change this weapon's stats. I know everyone hates the Katana and the weeaboos that use them, but the current system isn't realistic.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Sagar on December 11, 2013, 09:42:24 am
I will just put this here ...


If you ask yourself who is John Clements - http://www.thearma.org/Director.htm
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Paul on December 11, 2013, 10:25:44 am
On average Japanese steel products of that time were inferior to European stuff because of the shitty iron sands the sushi smiths had to use as ore. Actually if there was an on_block trigger available I'd think about coding a mechanic that decides whether or not a katana or nodachi breaks when blocking or getting blocked by an European master race steel weapon.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Kafein on December 11, 2013, 12:02:14 pm
Sometimes, looking at thread title and OP avatar is enough to form an accurate opinion of the content of the first post.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2013, 01:27:39 pm
Can we forget about realism and that its seen as weaboo gear for a sec and just look at balance

The problem here is not that katana is UP, Longsword is just too good in what it does. It should really have a couple less swing damage or weaker stab. A while back we had some overbuffing on the middle priced swords.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Leshma on December 11, 2013, 02:04:11 pm
Forget about stats. Both weapons are equally OP, each in its own way. Katana is better for slashing (higher damage and that sweet curved blade that will be always an issue to deal with). On the other hand, Longsword is good for everything, excellent for slashing, has good thrust damage, super fast.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Macropus on December 11, 2013, 02:09:22 pm
Both weapons are equally OP, each in its own way. Katana is better for slashing (higher damage and that sweet curved blade that will be always an issue to deal with).
Oh come on, is 1 mln gold really so much for you?..

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Leshma on December 11, 2013, 02:15:15 pm
Lol I totally forgot about that :lol:

Nah, just comparing Porthos MW Katana against Hussar MW Longsword. Somehow, on siege server I always end up picking their MW versions of those weapons. For me, Katana feels faster and it's easier to confuse enemies with it. Probably because it has curved blade.

Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on December 12, 2013, 07:56:39 am
I will just put this here ...


If you ask yourself who is John Clements - http://www.thearma.org/Director.htm
bastard sword unbalanced i guess :3
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: korppis on December 12, 2013, 11:06:48 am
Look this is simple physics. The Katana is the lightest sword of that class and the shortest, it should have the best speed rank out of the bastard, hbs, and longsword. It should also have lower damages to represent the lighter blade.

If I swung two baseballs bats that both have the same weight except one was longer, I'd swing the shorter bat faster because it is more compact. The bastard sword currently has 1 more speed rank than the katana despite being heavier and longer.

Seriously change this weapon's stats. I know everyone hates the Katana and the weeaboos that use them, but the current system isn't realistic.

Yeah, this length&weight vs speed factor bugs me too. LS/HBS/BS are perfectly balanced between each others, but katana's stats don't align with them.

On the other hand I kind of like katana being shittier than those others, because it keeps it from becoming too mainstream.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Molly on December 12, 2013, 12:29:53 pm
Katana is fine like it is. If anything, then give it a +2 on the stab... 8)
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 12, 2013, 01:14:01 pm
I was drinking my sprite and almost choked after pressing that link in the OP.

Perfect thread to brighten up my hangover.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Osiris on December 12, 2013, 02:13:08 pm
katana pays weeeeeeeeaboo tax
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Leshma on December 12, 2013, 06:53:23 pm
On the other hand I kind of like katana being shittier than those others, because it keeps it from becoming too mainstream.

Oh, it's totally not mainstream...

Katana is the only weapon I can pick up at any given time on siege. By far the most common weapon among new players.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Angantyr on December 12, 2013, 07:21:33 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EDkoj932YFo
Not this guy again. This jarhead retard hosts probably the most ridiculous 'historical' weapons show ever produced, not surprised to find him here at all.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 13, 2013, 04:58:01 am
If I swung two baseballs bats that both have the same weight except one was longer, I'd swing the shorter bat faster because it is more compact. The bastard sword currently has 1 more speed rank than the katana despite being heavier and longer.

Unless one of the bats was extremely heavy or shaped like a fan or oar, the difference in speed would be minor. Even less than 1 crpg attack speed (that is a scientifically recognized measurement). Speaking of oars...

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Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: korppis on December 13, 2013, 08:02:42 am
Oh, it's totally not mainstream...

Katana is the only weapon I can pick up at any given time on siege. By far the most common weapon among new players.

That's only because I die -a lot- in there.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Kafein on December 13, 2013, 01:41:26 pm
That's only because I die -a lot- in there.

You kill a lot too.

I'd even go as far as saying that despite your ability for blocking, you tend to mindlessly spam swings because the katana just lets you get away with it.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Utrakil on December 13, 2013, 03:29:00 pm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EDkoj932YFo



I like the videos of scholagladiatoria (his youtube name). He made a series of 8 videos dealing with several myth or facts about the katana.
the video I link is a direct answer to your link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YZDb98Mqnk&list=PLMUtS78ZxryO9NKU_ceM-LhcnSnAc2kHV
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YZDb98Mqnk&list=PLMUtS78ZxryO9NKU_ceM-LhcnSnAc2kHV)
I strongly recomment to go through the whole series.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on December 13, 2013, 03:52:25 pm
PLEASE stop this shit: BE HAPPY that katana is useable AT ALL:

KATANA: last chance, desperation weapon for a samurai who has been behorsed and disarmed. Not a frontline weapon, ever. Even the japanese KNEW it was NOT a weapon for battle. It is made from bad quality steel, and serves best at slashing unarmed opponents. More of a testament to the noble birth of its carrier than a weapon, the design stayed the same for nearly a thousand years because it is aesthetically pleasing.

The larger bastard swords and the longsword: Technology 500 years in advance of katana, used as a mainline weapon, under constant development and improvement and made from vastly superior steel. No offence to the japanese: you cannot blame them for the natural resources they DIDN'T have.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Glyph on December 13, 2013, 04:17:51 pm
Omg stop thinking you know something about medieval weapons because you watched a single youtube clip. Do you really think fighting is just about standing perfectly alined to your target who's is only wearing a breastplate? If you knew anything about medieval combat you would know that how the weapon is balanced, weighted and what kind of steel it is made of(don't get me started on the details of steel) or how long it is seperates a good weapon from a shitty one. STOP ACTING LIKE A GEEK AND LET THE REAL GEEKS HANDLE THIS SHIT!!! Or go and practise Historical European Martial Arts to get insta-geeked about medieval combat like me.

And if you were to ever make a stupid thread like this one again...

I will find you and I will kill you(with a properly made Federsword)
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Muunilinst on December 13, 2013, 06:08:39 pm

its on german but, just from the video you will understand how overrated the katana is.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on December 13, 2013, 07:03:30 pm
I dunno if the katana should even be in a magical setting where mail or tougher armor is easy to come by. The current behavior of dealing more damage than a heavier weapon of similar length vs mail+ armor doesn't make much sense, even if it is supposed to be better at slicing up unarmored peasants/prisoners.

That's just the trouble with having an engine that doesn't support multiple damage types on a single attack though.

Warband is bad.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Molly on December 13, 2013, 07:20:12 pm
[...]
That's just the trouble with having an engine that doesn't support multiple damage types on a single attack though.

Warband is bad.
It does with WSE2 - cmp showed some video once where the hilt does blunt, the blade cut damage - but Overlords are too lazy busy to implement it. Although promised iirc...
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Gmnotutoo on December 14, 2013, 03:00:27 am
Yeah, this length&weight vs speed factor bugs me too. LS/HBS/BS are perfectly balanced between each others, but katana's stats don't align with them.

On the other hand I kind of like katana being shittier than those others, because it keeps it from becoming too mainstream.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to try to get it buffed but just reworked. I think the katana should have more speed and less swing damage.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: San on December 14, 2013, 03:11:12 am
That's what the bastard sword is already like. Current BS is like the pre-buff katana but better in a few areas. It'll be hard to do adjust the swing/damage of katana like that without the katana or BS being straight up inferior to the other one.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Gmnotutoo on December 14, 2013, 03:21:09 am
That's what the bastard sword is already like. Current BS is like the pre-buff katana but better in a few areas. It'll be hard to do adjust the swing/damage of katana like that without the katana or BS being straight up inferior to the other one.

The stab would remain the same for the katana, so it would be the inferior option in this position. I wanted to swing my sword so fast that a hurricane would form on the opposite side of the world.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Phantasmal on December 14, 2013, 05:46:34 am
Who knew cRPG had so many ancient weapon masters?

cRPG is not balanced by realism, so this argument over which one is historically better is useless.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 14, 2013, 05:50:13 am
Who knew cRPG had so many ancient weapon masters?

cRPG is not balanced by realism, so this argument over which one is historically better is useless.
THROWING LANCE IS HISTORICALLY BETTER THAN ARBALEST IF YOU DISAGREE I WONT TAKE YOU TO THE GOBBLINBAL
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Legs on December 14, 2013, 04:43:30 pm
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in cRPG right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana. Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind. Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash. Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in cRPG. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 110
thrust damage: 30 pierce
swing damage: 48 cut
slots: 2

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in cRPG, see my new stat block.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: //saxon on December 14, 2013, 05:28:55 pm
the katana used to be the only weapon where i thought, what is that doing here with them stats, mass damage and no problem spam.

but now its ok, so is the longsword, both are good to fight against and can counter easy enough.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on December 14, 2013, 09:26:28 pm
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana. Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind. Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash. Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in cRPG. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 110
thrust damage: 30 pierce
swing damage: 48 cut
slots: 2

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in cRPG, see my new stat block.

(click to show/hide)


O man, your funny.

Lets do some thinking based on reality. If you use a sword that cost you a lot (I guess its a lot for you since you are clearly showing off), why are you cutting blocks of steel with it?

If you got a sword made in japan, today, I guarantee either a/ it was NOT made with native japanese steel or b/ you got ripped off.

The folding technique was to provide the blade enough strengh and remove its brittle qualities, inherent in the crap iron deposits that japan has.

Using that technique with modern steel from good ore and a good mix could make a VERY nice blade. Likewise, using modern steel for plate armor would make it immune to your katana. A longsword made from modern steel vs a modern steel breatplate: would maybe penetrate, who knows, noone is in the business of making authentic period weapons and armor from modern steel and then smashing them.

Europeans where NOT afraid of conquering japan, for 2 reasons: the vast majority of europeans didnt even know that japan excisted, and if they had WHY would they conquer it? Small landmass, massively unstable geographically, with very poor natural resources...

Stop watching anime dude.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Legs on December 14, 2013, 10:01:00 pm
Katanas were known to cut through machine gun barrels of American G.I.s during WW2, look it up it's a proven fact.

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Katanas are the greatest swords of all time, no question about it. If anything they should be unblockable because IRL they would just cut through the enemy's weapon.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: San on December 14, 2013, 10:04:32 pm
That looks more like 1h OP to me. 1h no shield katana and we will all be battosai.
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Utrakil on December 14, 2013, 10:05:25 pm
I think you (Legs) confuse "katana" with "lightsaber".  :wink:     (intensified)
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Leshma on December 14, 2013, 10:11:50 pm
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Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on December 14, 2013, 10:28:13 pm
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I fucking read it like 9 times, but decided it was too much. Did I really get it wrong? FUCK. I just didn't think anyone could it pour it so thick for so long without even a wink...

O well, I am trolled, Im grinning IRL like a tard.

EDIT: Fuck I didn't check the pic, that would have sinched it for sure. How was I so stupid?
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Uumdi on December 15, 2013, 05:38:18 am
cant a katana cut through a fencing sword it would be like scooby doo salami versus sword
Title: Re: Longsword vs Katana
Post by: Glyph on December 16, 2013, 02:21:36 pm
legs is trolling the entire community, no one would pay 20,000 for a katana and go and actually use it. BTW guys, not a single sword in the world could slash through a well made full plate armor. That is why in the late 15th and 16th century shields becames more and more obsolete, 2handed weapons became more common for the plated knight. Because of the arms and armor race constantly going on, weapons developed to counter this ofcourse, so european swords became sturdier and more pointy to be beter at stabbing. You might think stabbing would penetrate the armor, but barely, it might have gone through the armor, but let me remind you that there would be a gambeson underneath the plate. Not only that, but your weapon would be stuck in your enemies armor, so that would give your opponent(who might be lightly wounded or not at all) the chance to stab you in the face. So, to be able to do some serious damage to a knight in plate armor you would have to find gaps in the armor to stab through, usually those were located in the armpits, near the genetals and if the breastplate consisted of multiple parts, inbetween those. To counter this lame ass tactic there small patches of mail were sewn to the gambeson on the places that were less protected by the plates, these things are called plate companion sets.

Sincerely,

Your history teacher Berethorn