cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Ubereem on December 06, 2013, 10:59:57 pm

Title: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Ubereem on December 06, 2013, 10:59:57 pm
#1 Change the x1 to x1.5 just like that peasant EU server.

#2 Bring back ladders.

#3 Lower weapon break %.

#4 Put equipment boxes in all siege maps.

#5 Why can't NA siege players roll after knockdown? This honestly boggles my mind.

#6

#7
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Hirlok on December 06, 2013, 11:04:09 pm
the main reason is that most people love horse dick.

But indeed the upkeep on na siege seems to be a lot more aggressive (stuff breaks WAY more often) than on battle.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: rustyspoon on December 06, 2013, 11:55:33 pm
There's people who play this that still care about repairs? News to me.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Silfarion on December 07, 2013, 02:29:39 am
but spoony knoify

i'm pore :(
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Ubereem on December 07, 2013, 02:38:53 am
There's people who play this that still care about repairs? News to me.
well then lets think about it, what could the reasons be then? in siege you don't have to wait minutes after dying to respawn, in siege HA and Hxbow are nothing, archers cant camp hilltops together and many other things that effect battle do not effect siege. gotta be repairs. Wear full plate and watch your savings dwindle.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 07, 2013, 05:00:31 am
I don't play it because there's usually 3 or less players on the server when I have time to play. But if its full I enjoy it and repair cost doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: MURDERTRON on December 07, 2013, 04:31:11 pm
It's because the rounds run longer.  You are actually getting more ticks, as in battle, the round will often end before you get the 5:00 tick.  That rarely happens in siege.  Repairs are a product of chance over time.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: bilwit on December 07, 2013, 05:40:34 pm
I played my first 8 or so gens playing siege only back when it was packed all the time (RIP na_community/ats/whatever server). I prefer battle now because the multiplier is more consistent (less team balance) and the siege map rotation is utterly fucked in terms of balance. In most maps attackers are way OP.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Ubereem on December 07, 2013, 07:49:15 pm
I played my first 8 or so gens playing siege only back when it was packed all the time (RIP na_community/ats/whatever server). I prefer battle now because the multiplier is more consistent (less team balance) and the siege map rotation is utterly fucked in terms of balance. In most maps attackers are way OP.
no friend a lot of the maps have been reworked in the last patch and the castles that sucked balls were removed. siege is well balanced now especially with the new defense spawn timers which can be as low as like 7-8 seconds
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Ubereem on December 17, 2013, 11:11:50 pm
I don't play it because there's usually 3 or less players on the server when I have time to play. But if its full I enjoy it and repair cost doesn't bother me.
never seen you in siege :|
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Jona on December 19, 2013, 04:34:14 pm
no friend a lot of the maps have been reworked in the last patch and the castles that sucked balls were removed. siege is well balanced now especially with the new defense spawn timers which can be as low as like 7-8 seconds

While the old siege was heavily biased towards attackers, now it is almost as biased for defenders... especially depending on the population. When there used to be ~20 - 30 players in the old siege, the maps were usually balanced, save for a few really shit maps. Now with the new timers, it helps get the population above the really low numbers since as you said defenders can respawn rapidy. However, come the 20+ player mark, many maps favor defense. Not only do you spawn a little too quickly, but you also seem to almost always spawn right next to the flag. In siege I had 12 kills ON THE FLAG when I was the only guy there, with 1 or 2 allies trickling in from time to time. And guess what, there were only 7-8 players on the enemy team. I realize that being the only guy on the flag means it caps slowly, but the fact that I had to kill some people 2 - 3 times, and still didnt cap the flag is just annoying. You really shouldn't be able to spawn so quickly to get back to the flag in time once you died once, even TWICE on it already. FYI, this was on the crappy helms deep map, where defenders spawn literally 3 seconds from the flag.

I just want them to rebalance siege once more... make it so the really low op <12 or so timers stay the same to give defense a fighting chance, but they really should rethink the higher teens and 20+ population spawn timers. Somewhere between the old siege and new siege would be the perfect balance. Old one was attacker-favored, new one is defender-favored. If they don't want to play with the spawn timers again, then at least change spawn points on some maps. It's just a little ridiculous how close some can be. Sure, it is incredibly annoying to spawn all the way on the front wall as a defender when the attackers are on your flag, but you shouldn't be spawning right on top of a horde of enemies. All the spawns should ideally be in the middle of the castle, if that makes any sense. This way defense can get to the front walls/gatehouse or the flag in an equal amount of time.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 19, 2013, 07:37:05 pm
siege maps suck for team balance.  and you always get switched in the map to attacker/defender, so you're bound to lose xp every map.  On battle you can potentially roll x5 for hours.  Also one death per round is nice, everyone's 1 life is very important.

Spawn MotF after 2 minutes of fighting (on even ground) on battle server and everything is good.  No more whining, no more need to split server population. 
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Elindor on December 20, 2013, 10:12:01 pm
The funny thing about people mentioning how in battle you can "roll x5 for hours" is that they seem to neglect that in order for there to be a team that wins over and over, there has to also be a team that LOSES OVER AND OVER.

Battle's balancer is terrible...and that's saying a lot because siege's is terrible too.  But in siege, it shakes things up and tries....in battle sometimes it's basically like "Just go play siege and come back next map and hope to get on the good team, or get utterly rolled over and over".  The same player on the rolling team can go 8-4 and if he was on the team being rolled he would go 2-4....its retarded. 

Something to keep in mind - every action has an opposite and equal reaction, and every x5 team results in an x1 team on the opposite side - I guess these players just ignore those times?  Strike them from their memories and hope to get lucky the next map?

---

I'm saying all this as a completely unbiased player at this point - I play about 50% siege and 50% battle now.  This is just something that has always confused me about that statement.

---

And Jona, yes, I agree that the defense dynamic spawn timer needs a small tweak...it was awesome Paul got it in for us, but it might need to be adjusted some now.
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Hirlok on December 20, 2013, 10:36:29 pm
still have the feeling that with roughly the same mix of xY I am gaining money on battle while losing on siege. Same char/gear/gen.

....and don't tell me to sell loompoints, I still have no elder's wooden stick... ;-)
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Ubereem on February 15, 2014, 07:46:29 pm
OP updated bumpeh!
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Alaire on February 15, 2014, 09:26:31 pm
#1 Change the x1 to x1.5 just like that peasant EU server.  :) Could help! (already done once, just copy code?) probably could help bc, then the defenders on x1 would have more incentive to stay after they lose the round.

#2 Bring back ladders. Sure, why not, added bonus when more people.

#3 Lower weapon break %. <-- (Would be nice, but probably wouldn't happen, would realistically take a while/a good amount of effort to change(codewise))

#4 Put equipment boxes in all siege maps. <-- People with throwing may constantly spawn throwing lances/gear ^^(if this doesn't bother you then keep)

#5 Why can't NA siege players roll after knockdown? This honestly boggles my mind. (Yes!)


I feel like the numbers are just too few for NA siege to come to a constant state of activity. Sure, there are clans like Kutt, HG, Acre, Remnant, ect who enjoy playing siege occasionally, but there is not the constant player base which allows for siege to have at least eight players continually. Unless there's an influx of about twenty siege players, or some alternative incentive to play siege(while enjoying it) it probably may not come back to the active state for a while.

Bursts do occur, occasionally with changes(the beta test with spawnpoints ect.) or (i.e. kutt coming back and starting up siege again)and that revives siege for a while, but interest dies out due to seemingly lack of enjoyment on the severs.

Who knows though maybe with the start of strat again or if there is an extra 1.5x exp boost people will start playing again. :)
+1 if I could, but I currently can't on any post for some reason or another.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Hirlok on February 15, 2014, 10:27:24 pm
#9 Switch of the DTV leeching station already, 10-20 players wasted who could help being cannon fodder on NA1 or NA2. ....   :mrgreen:


(((seriously, not enough players for 3-4 game modes any more...)))
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on February 15, 2014, 11:18:13 pm
The problems with repairs on siege are due to the low player count which means you get stuck on a x1.  This problem could be offset by reducing the number of players needed for multipliers and removing the "unfair teams" penalty.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 16, 2014, 01:42:50 am
The problems with repairs on siege are due to the low player count which means you get stuck on a x1.  This problem could be offset by reducing the number of players needed for multipliers and removing the "unfair teams" penalty.

The unfair teams is by far the biggest plague preventing us from getting multis. Once we finally get 4v4 or more, no one wants to stay since even the winning team can't get a multi. If it is 4v5, teams are considered unfair... 4v5 HAS to happen at some point, so it is kinda BS that we should all suffer for that. Even times when the teams are balanced (number-wise at least) no multis are awarded. The problem is really that this just simply happens so often, as well. I really wish I knew what made the server think teams are unfair when its 12v13 or something... whoop-de-doo, one team has one more player. Even worse are the times when it is 10v10 and it is still considered unfair teams (did one team get more points or something? Yeah, that is siege for yah... defenders generally get more points... deal with it you stupid balancer!)
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 05:26:54 am
The funny thing about people mentioning how in battle you can "roll x5 for hours" is that they seem to neglect that in order for there to be a team that wins over and over, there has to also be a team that LOSES OVER AND OVER.
The balance may be bad, but under a perfectly balanced system, you'd only have a x1.5 multi. Now remember how one sided maps can often be in siege, favoring either attackers or defenders, and then realize that you frequently get switched from team to team much more often on siege, resulting in streaks being harder to sustain. Finally, consider that for every round you spend with a x5, you have to spend an extra 3 rounds at a x1, to maintain even a 2.0 average multi. So having a x5 for even two rounds in a row(ignoring the rounds where you had to play to reach the x5), means you must have a x1 for 6 rounds before obtaining your next x3, to maintain just a 2.0 average multi per round.

So you win all the rounds in one map, and then get lucky and win the rounds in the next map, assuming they were all shutouts. This means you just won at least 8 times in a row, or spent 4 rounds with a x5 multi. Now, including the multis you had before reaching x5, you would have to lose 14 rounds in a row to have only a 2.0 average multi. Just do some basic averaging, win streaks are better for pretty much everyone.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Elindor on February 16, 2014, 05:52:02 am
Honestly Tydeus, my complaints about the balancer (for both siege and battle) are not related to the unfortunate x1 streaks that sometimes happen when one team is stacked, but instead my complaints would be about the poor player experience that results from it.  If someone were to attempt to improve the balancer system my vote would be to put an emphasis on balancing for skill and effectiveness of players on each team, not necessarily balancing for consistency of multiplier.  Now, those may be interchangeable and they may not...but yeah, to me its a balanced player experience that is important to me - good, honest, balanced fights (as opposed to steamrolls).
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: dreadnok on February 18, 2014, 02:36:49 pm
I played my first 8 or so gens playing siege only back when it was packed all the time (RIP na_community/ats/whatever server). I prefer battle now because the multiplier is more consistent (less team balance) and the siege map rotation is utterly fucked in terms of balance. In most maps attackers are way OP.


Shut up billy
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 03:40:43 pm
As someone with something ridiculous like 4000 hours logged on NA siege, here are my thoughts:

1. DTV has murdered NA2 population, because it's at least twice the gold/XP per hour. But the siege players that play DTV mostly hate DTV, and only play it because it's populated and good XP. My proposed solution? Restrict DTV to < lvl 31, so people can use it to learn cRPG and grind through peasanthood, but not farm their high level characters.

2. It's really hard to populate NA2; no one wants to be stuck on x1 while waiting for 8 players to arrive. My proposed solution? Eliminate repairs while the population is <8.

3. The multiplier+valor system is a poor match for siege, but I get the feeling Tydeus is working on changing it (based on that "offset" debug text). Right now, the best strategy when you end up on a doomed team (i.e. the wrong team on a map that heavily favors offense or defense), is to just ignore the flag and fight on the walls for relatively easy valor (your teammates sitting idle at the flag actually bring down the average points, helping you get valor). It's pretty dumb that you get rewarded for ignoring the objectives. 

4. There are still a few maps in the rotation that are ill-suited for typical NA2 populations; Burg Rabenstein and Ridoma Castle are still in the rotation as of last night, and I assume Hailes Castle is also still in. These are maps where it takes attackers a minute or more to get to the flag, which means that when the population is low, defenders have respawned 3 or more times while attackers are still running to the flag. I'm sure these maps play great on EU with 50+ people, but with <20 people on NA2 they are snoozefests that cause most players to quit. NA2 is more suited to smaller, faster-paced maps like Himmelsberg Monastery.

Ultimately, I wish that Battle and Siege would be merged into a single Conquest server. I felt that this game mode showed amazing promise, and it's a shame the devs abandoned it before it was complete. It combined the best elements of Battle and Siege, without the worst negatives, and the beta conquest map that was on the NA2 rotation for a little while was 90% there, IMHO.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 18, 2014, 05:08:23 pm
I'm fairly certain the offset has nothing to do with score, unfortunately, and is merely something that was forgotten to be removed after playing with ranged stagger. Offset = how far someone gets knocked back when hit by an arrow/melee strike.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 05:16:50 pm
From Tydeus:

Quote
A player's offset is found by either their previous round score gained : previous round average score gained ratio or their total score : average total score ratio, whichever is higher is used. The offset is then applied to the score you would normally gain on a hit, as a percent of the whole(125% score to 75% score). Simply put, people who perform better, are worth more.

Last night, hits on Tretter were saying ~250+ Offset, while hits on peasants were <100 Offset. Indicates that they are working on a difficulty-based score system. Whether this will supplant or supplement the multi/valor system remains to be seen.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 18, 2014, 06:16:05 pm
Huh... I only assumed it had to do with knockback/stagger since that was recently tweaked/removed, and the one time I got huge offset I happened to hit a guy off a ledge. :P
Title: Re: Lower NA Siege Repairs
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 18, 2014, 07:00:35 pm
The funny thing about people mentioning how in battle you can "roll x5 for hours" is that they seem to neglect that in order for there to be a team that wins over and over, there has to also be a team that LOSES OVER AND OVER.



I missed that. from months ago (the same day my son was born, so forgive me :P )

No that's not true.  The first round of every map is a hodge podge of mixed teams.  Factions are split on the first map.  So I could be lucky and go on team 1 but a faction member could be on team 2.  One of us may keep x5 rolling, the other may not.  Other times your team loses, but you are lucky and got valor on the round that your team loses.  So you keep your x5 rolling.  It's very rare that you do not get valor and keep x5 rolling for "hours" (exaggerating some here...).  Or very rare that your whole faction gets put on the same team on the first round of a map, and your team wins.

Also what Tydeus said is how I feel.

Maps are often one-sided in siege (either favoring attackers or defenders), and you are likely to be switched at least once a map to the other side when you're playing in siege, so it's harder to keep your multiplier rolling (whereas in battle it's not easy to keep multiplier rolling, but it's certainly easier than on siege IMO, when a map is heavily favoring attackers or defenders, and you're pretty much guaranteed to play a round on the side that is at a heavy disadvantage).   

The reason siege is lower population is because it's a worse xp/gold gain than battle (for above reasons).  It was obvious for me from about day 10 of playing crpg.  And then add to that I just don't like the game mode as much (I like the "counter-strike" round based system where you only get one life per round...use it wisely) vs essentially team death match style for siege, and you can see pretty easily why battle is the more favored game mode, and why siege is always lower population. 
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Elindor on February 18, 2014, 08:06:47 pm
Congrats about your son!

Here's a curious question - why is siege much more popular in EU than in NA?
In EU it rivals if not surpasses battle's population much of the time...always wondered why the appeal is greater there.

Also, good suggestions Phew.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 08:20:33 pm
Here's a curious question - why is siege much more popular in EU than in NA?
In EU it rivals if not surpasses battle's population much of the time...always wondered why the appeal is greater there.

I think it's a self-fulfilling prophesy. No one likes low population siege, but populated siege is very fun. On the rare occasions when NA2 has >30 players, it quickly approaches 50 players, because people think "whoah, siege is populated, let's go". But no one wants to log on when it has 10 players to help it get to 30.

If EU just has like 10-15 more "siege regulars" than NA, that's enough to get it past that "fun threshold" of ~30 that draws battle players in.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: HappyPhantom on February 18, 2014, 08:41:22 pm
As someone with something ridiculous like 4000 hours logged on NA siege, here are my thoughts:

1. DTV has murdered NA2 population, because it's at least twice the gold/XP per hour. But the siege players that play DTV mostly hate DTV, and only play it because it's populated and good XP. My proposed solution? Restrict DTV to < lvl 31, so people can use it to learn cRPG and grind through peasanthood, but not farm their high level characters.


I'm hoping the upside of the destruction and total removal of fun from DTV is that Siege become more populated. I can dream.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Penitent on February 18, 2014, 09:14:28 pm
Hi NA siege friends!  Love you.

I think that multis should be enabled on siege with <8 players.  That will help get people in the game when there is low population and help bump it to the "fun" threshold.  Maybe 4 players.

Removing upkeep with less than 8 players might help a little.

Most of all, I think we need a NA Siege marketing/advertising push to inform people about this incredibly fun and rewarding game mode!
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Snufalufagus on February 18, 2014, 09:18:21 pm
I agree penitent, however people also leave when enemies kill a few and cap in less than a minute. It must be near impossible to balance for NA and EU because of the vast number disparity.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 18, 2014, 10:47:45 pm
While it would  help to have no upkeep with less than 8 players... I personally don't find it to be much of an issue. If you've got nothing to lose (or gain), why not just use peasant gear? Obviously you are only playing on a sub-8 player server since  you are a die-hard siege fan, and you shouldn't really be having too many financial issues if that is the case. Could be wrong, but seemingly everyone who is willing to play with less than 8 players doesn't really need gold all that badly (high gen, long time player, etc.). Or if you do need the gold... peasant gear. Multis with only 4 people would be nice for sure since you can usually get at least 4 people to go at once. It would be really frustrating to be defenders on a 2v2 though.

My suggestion would be to create a "NA Siege Map Balancer" type of position. Yes, we've heard it all before... when they went looking for scene managers, no NA stepped up, so we only have 2 EU players managing the maps, etc etc. We get it... but is it really impossible to open up a small position where someone can simply veto siege maps from the NA map rotation, or slightly modify EU maps before they become part of the NA rotation? This person wouldn't necessarily need to even make maps from scratch, although surely NA-tailored maps would be great. Not sure how the servers are set up... but I would imagine that it would be possible for NA to have different maps than EU, although for one reason or another that has yet to happen.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 11:07:24 pm
While it would  help to have no upkeep with less than 8 players... I personally don't find it to be much of an issue.

Yeah, I don't join 2-7 population siege because running a minute for a duel is less fun than just going to the duel server and skipping the boring run. Upkeep/multiplier don't factor into the decision. Then again, I'd gladly play 50-population siege all day even if it didn't award gold or XP, just because it's fun. I think I just convinced myself to play native instead of cRPG....

...then again, crutching on looms/levels is oddly fun.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: HappyPhantom on February 19, 2014, 02:59:53 am
Ok, so we need a way to let each other know when we're all on, but not on siege, but willing to move to siege (hopefully en mass); suggestions?
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Hirlok on February 19, 2014, 12:56:25 pm
Ok, so we need a way to let each other know when we're all on, but not on siege, but willing to move to siege (hopefully en mass); suggestions?

Implement voice command:

"To the [W]alls!"

...and whenever one shouts it, all subscribers are also notified via Skype/SMS/NSA-Trojans/Display of SmartFridge.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 19, 2014, 03:27:58 pm
Display of SmartFridge.

Hirlok humor best humor.

Usually the best way to "rally the troops" for siege is to go to DTV and recruit right after a wipe. No one on battle even knows who I am, so I never bother to recruit siege players there.

Occasionally Remnant and KUTT decide to get their siege on, and that's when it gets really fun. If we could get those guys to agree on 1-2 regular "siege nights", then I'm sure the usual siege clans like HoC/HG/Maduin's crew/etc would join in.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 19, 2014, 03:32:10 pm
Implement voice command:

"To the [W]alls!"

...and whenever one shouts it, all subscribers are also notified via Skype/SMS/NSA-Trojans/Display of SmartFridge.

Of all people... hirlok the hermit has a smartfridge? Well, I guess someone had to buy em... :P
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Elindor on February 19, 2014, 04:20:03 pm
My suggestion would be to create a "NA Siege Map Balancer" type of position. Yes, we've heard it all before... when they went looking for scene managers, no NA stepped up, so we only have 2 EU players managing the maps, etc etc. We get it... but is it really impossible to open up a small position where someone can simply veto siege maps from the NA map rotation, or slightly modify EU maps before they become part of the NA rotation? This person wouldn't necessarily need to even make maps from scratch, although surely NA-tailored maps would be great. Not sure how the servers are set up... but I would imagine that it would be possible for NA to have different maps than EU, although for one reason or another that has yet to happen.

As you know, I already did what you are talking about here - determined maps I thought didn't work well for the NA siege server and did a poll to see what people though.  Based on that poll I suggested to FIPS which maps could be removed from the NA rotation for better gameplay.  He did for a little bit and then added them back in :(
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 19, 2014, 05:06:52 pm
As you know, I already did what you are talking about here - determined maps I thought didn't work well for the NA siege server and did a poll to see what people though.  Based on that poll I suggested to FIPS which maps could be removed from the NA rotation for better gameplay.  He did for a little bit and then added them back in :(

Why do I not remember this..?
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Elindor on February 19, 2014, 09:30:34 pm
Why do I not remember this..?

Not sure, it happened though...

Think this is it
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/na2's-population-would-map-rotation-alterations-help/

Fips actually removed the ones I suggested for a bit but then told me he was just gonna put them back in...so I was like..."ok, whatever"
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Jona on February 19, 2014, 09:54:37 pm
Well, in fip's defense, 2 of those maps are perfectly okay. One of those perfectly okay maps is still not even in the rotation, while hrafninn and burg ramenstein are for some reason. Ibdeles seriously needs a comeback.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Phew on February 19, 2014, 09:58:25 pm
Not sure, it happened though...

Burg Rabenstein clears the server every time. That closest ladder takes like 30 seconds just to climb, and your reward for getting to the top is usually a great maul to the face.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Snufalufagus on February 24, 2014, 08:21:46 am
Short rounds and banner stack on small servers, and really short re-spawn timers for high pop.
Title: Re: NA Siege Solution
Post by: Elindor on February 24, 2014, 09:06:17 pm
Here's my new solution :

When siege's population goes under X amount (20 players?) siege converts to Team Death Match mode :)