cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Ironlake on December 03, 2013, 04:25:15 pm
Title: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on December 03, 2013, 04:25:15 pm
Hello all,
with all the archers around on the servers, maybe something should be done and an idea is to remove the Bodkin Arrows (P) dmg.
I REALLY dont care about the "historically bodkins could(nt) pierce armour".
This is purely from a balance perspective. You'd have Xbows as armour piercing (but slow firing, reload...) and archers as fast firing (and accurate!) but weak v. armour.
The result would be armour dudes ability to survive some time v. arrows AND heavy cavalry will become effective v. Archers.
The 2nd is very important, because right now heavy cav suffers a lot to archers - remember that any attacking cav also has a LARGE speed bonus to dmg because its charging the archer.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Macropus on December 03, 2013, 04:35:48 pm
I agree, but I also think that while archers lose their piercing damage they should get arrow weight back to normal, not 10 kg.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Fasader on December 03, 2013, 04:48:16 pm
how about a compromise? lose piercing and arrow weight to 20kg
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 03, 2013, 04:54:23 pm
how about a compromise? lose piercing and arrow weight to 20kg
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: 722_ on December 03, 2013, 05:10:20 pm
Nothing should be able to stop the 2h master race! the damage isnt the problem with ranged, its the amount of archers. does not seem fair to nerf damage because of how effective they are in groups
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Rebelyell on December 03, 2013, 05:14:08 pm
Nothing should be able to stop the 2h master race! the damage isnt the problem with ranged, its the amount of archers. does not seem fair to nerf damage because of how effective they are in groups
actually there is one way visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Bronto on December 03, 2013, 05:23:58 pm
why do people care so much about archers and seem to overlook that xbow people hit harder and delay more on battle servers? They can do a 15/24 build, kite, hide and snipe usually one or two shotting everything, with infinity aim; on the other hand, an archer has to hit you (most people) at least 3 times with bodkin arrows to have the same result, can't kit anymore, and has a small window to aim and shoot. The problem is not having too many archers, it's having no way to balance the game by class on the server. Inevitably one team always has more ranged than the other, or more cav, or more 2handers, or more shielders, etc. because the game balances by banner and number of people, rather than build. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Leshma on December 03, 2013, 05:34:03 pm
On EU side there are way more archers than xbowmen, that's why.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Thomek on December 03, 2013, 05:56:50 pm
But still, xbows deliver way too much power for the effort.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Leshma on December 03, 2013, 06:05:17 pm
I agree, but they create less mess. Archers are responsible for projectile shower.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: San on December 03, 2013, 06:59:14 pm
I'm not sure some of you guys understand what you're asking for if you want a bunch of arbalest xbowmen instead of archers.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Leshma on December 03, 2013, 07:07:49 pm
Personally, I want to see all ranged nerfed. But I'm also aware of the fact that while Thomek is a friend of chadz (which translates Katana nerf is not an option), same goes for Fasader (who is not playing much recently) and more importantly Jacko. Both are friends of chadz and both are dedicated xbow.
We're past the point where it's relatively easy to lobby for nerfs, now you have to take certain personal relationships into consideration :D
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Kafein on December 03, 2013, 07:16:14 pm
Nothing should be able to stop the 2h master race! the damage isnt the problem with ranged, its the amount of archers. does not seem fair to nerf damage because of how effective they are in groups
Why ? It's overused, it gets nerfed.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Bulzur on December 03, 2013, 07:48:07 pm
with all the archers around on the servers, maybe something should be done and an idea is to remove the Bodkin Arrows (P) dmg.
There's indeed way too many archers on,
But, i'm afraid arrow's price and effectiveness ratio is pretty good already. Bodkins are really expensive, considering they also break more often than regular items.
And giving an whole class simple cut dmg weapons would mean horrible damage, since there's mainly 60+ body armored people around there.
Just think of this suggestion as giving the stabs cut damage. Pure nonesense.
It won't even fix the problem, since dedicated range players will just switch to xbow, wich, imo, is worse.
I wouldn't mind making bodkin arrows unusable on horseback though. To prevent unkillable players to be able to kill all. Their priority targets (horse, range) will remain unaffected, while their stun and bump will still save the day.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Paul on December 03, 2013, 08:05:50 pm
I think we should nerf 2h. Especially agi 2h like katana. Why? Because those bind anti launcher ranged forces like shielders or throwers in melee. With a nerf, 2h will be dealt with more quickly, resulting in more time for ranged hunt. Crackpot theory style reasoning, am I doing it right?
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Macropus on December 03, 2013, 08:18:48 pm
I think we should nerf 2h. Especially agi 2h like katana. Why? Because those bind anti launcher ranged forces like shielders or throwers in melee. With a nerf, 2h will be dealt with more quickly, resulting in more time for ranged hunt. Crackpot theory style reasoning, am I doing it right?
As a shielder I'd say the most trouble I have is axe wielders, they break my shield and then I get shot. So - nerf axes. Especially nerf archers with axes.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on December 03, 2013, 08:26:59 pm
I think we should nerf 2h. Especially agi 2h like katana. Why? Because those bind anti launcher ranged forces like shielders or throwers in melee. With a nerf, 2h will be dealt with more quickly, resulting in more time for ranged hunt. Crackpot theory style reasoning, am I doing it right?
:D
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Thomek on December 04, 2013, 12:41:02 am
Do whatever you think is right paul.
Playing EU1 with the amount of ranged nowadays ain't............. fun.
I think we should nerf 2h. Especially agi 2h like katana. Why? Because those bind anti launcher ranged forces like shielders or throwers in melee. With a nerf, 2h will be dealt with more quickly, resulting in more time for ranged hunt. Crackpot theory style reasoning, am I doing it right?
Uhh.. does this mean you acknowledge the katana needs re-working and you will find a good stat balance to make it comparable to the European swords?
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Leshma on December 04, 2013, 01:48:15 am
Ranged deaths: 17 (archer:9, xbow: 3, throw: 3, headshots: 2) = cause of 59% of deaths
IMHO, 41% vs 59% not terribly unbalanced.
I believe my data is right.
Again I repeat, this is melee centric game/mod and anything more than 33% (one third) ranged kills out of total kills at any given timeframe in completely unacceptable for me personally.
Edit: Fixed.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Paul on December 04, 2013, 06:02:30 am
Ok, now find a dev that believes in the significance of anecdotal evidence, especially when presented by Thomek and analysed by Leshma.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: DrTaco on December 04, 2013, 06:13:46 am
Considering the HTA nerf, that shouldn't be too hard to find.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Penitent on December 04, 2013, 06:42:04 am
Arrow damage is balanced.
Tatar arrows = 8 cut Bodkin = 2 pierce
So against someone with like 55 body armor, the bodkins will do 1 or 2 points of additional damage. This is not a lot, at all. To make up for it, they have less ammo and cost more.
If we removed the P and rebalanced the arrows, bodkins would do like 9 or 10 cut. It would work out the same for most players, unless you had uber armor all the time.
Internal arrows balance is balanced.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Thomek on December 04, 2013, 09:00:59 am
Ok, now find a dev that believes in the significance of anecdotal evidence, especially when presented by Thomek and analysed by Leshma.
Fine, you can get access to logs. Go and take a look. Only thing I know is EU1 is nigh on unplayable atm, and that there are more and nastier ranged players. The screen above happens all the time, and is not something I waited around to snatch.
I'm telling you, it's bad, it's lame, and if we don't do anything about it, mod will die much faster.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Erzengel on December 04, 2013, 09:33:19 am
Just have a look at the player numbers and you will see that the mod is dying at the moment (can't even say slowly)... The huge amount of ranged seems to be the main problem which causes people not to play on EU_1 and even EU_2 any longer.
There is a reason why so many of us complain about ranged. It is not just "anecdotal evidence".
You only need to play some hours (or even minutes) on battle to notice how terrible the situation is. Crossbowers can take 60-80% of your hit points with a single body shot (while having extremly high accuracy and up to 26 ammo) and are still nearly as strong as a pure melee build in close combat. Due to their high agility they can also just drop their crossbow and run away if the situation gets too dangerous for them. You don't have to be a genius to notice how overpowered this is...
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Erzengel on December 04, 2013, 09:35:24 am
Delete please, double post.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Hirlok on December 04, 2013, 12:38:06 pm
Bullshit, as most of the recent nerfs, err "patches" - and "moar nerf" threads.
My lvl 22 arbalest alt already gets better KD than my archer main at lvl 30. Not to speak of the biased points system on the scoreboard which is not even worth a laugh any more.
High PD builds are not feasible and have not been for a very long time because of bs "balancing" AKA 2h/pole cocksucking. The recent "agi should rule the world" wpf/wp system change did not make that any better, but actually worse.
Quick solution for all the whining:
- melee pussies, learn to die with honor and be sportsmen. You kill several archers each round, why not get killed here and there by an arrow. (((besides most ranged focus on ranged, just look at the screen that thomek posted above, it proves nothing except useless melee whining)))
- make xbowmen use pd or a new similar stat for xbows. Makes them less of 1-men-armies and forces them to be dedicated or bad.
- make high pd archer builds (pd 7 and up) useful again, and "punish" them by leaving the current bs weight of arrows in place for them. Heavy archer is heavy.
- make bodkins usable only with high tier bows. A dedicated archer has the right to kill you, a nomad bow ha has the job to annoy you (and maybe hit the face for a kill)
- make normal arrows weight less, the current "anti-kite" bs is very similar to the "anti-terror" bs all over the world ("just make them all feel guilty and punish without discrimination...")
- make all bows one pd more difficult = less agi whores with bow sidearm...
- rework damage / arrow speed for all bows. 1 slot bows should not be superior in almost all aspects to the high tier bows.
Problem solved. A couple of dedicated archers that can actually harm you, your precious horse, or even kill you... (((((new whining incoming, of course))))), less spammy pussy archers, and xbows finally in their place.
But who would want that.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Kafein on December 04, 2013, 01:02:18 pm
Ok, now find a dev that believes in the significance of anecdotal evidence, especially when presented by Thomek and analysed by Leshma.
I don't remember anyone ever said that was evidence
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 04, 2013, 06:07:34 pm
Can we get the stats of servers EU1 and NA1 for damage of all weapon types (like was posted a year or two ago)?
Too much whining on the forums about archers and ranged, as it's been for over 2 years. Can mods start muting the cry babies and whiners? It's getting really old.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 04, 2013, 06:16:35 pm
how about a compromise? lose piercing and arrow weight to 20kg
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on December 04, 2013, 06:43:53 pm
Go back to the old system where only longbows had pierce, that wasn't actually bad.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Phew on December 04, 2013, 07:28:43 pm
I have a solution to the ranged "problem" that doesn't require any nerfs:
-Allow any player to pick up/equip any shield, with a penalty to shield stats based on shield skill vs. requirement -Make shield skill reduce effective weight of shields (~1kg per shield skill), so dedicated shielders can actually catch kiting ranged -Buff bastard weapons (longsword, HBS/BS/Morningstar/etc) so they aren't so terrible in 1h mode
Historically, shields were the defense against archery, so this game should be the same way.
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Rebelyell on December 04, 2013, 08:11:41 pm
I have a solution to the ranged "problem" that doesn't require any nerfs:
-Allow any player to pick up/equip any shield, with a penalty to shield stats based on shield skill vs. requirement -Make shield skill reduce effective weight of shields (~1kg per shield skill), so dedicated shielders can actually catch kiting ranged -Buff bastard weapons (longsword, HBS/BS/Morningstar/etc) so they aren't so terrible in 1h mode
Historically, shields were the defense against archery, so this game should be the same way.
And 1h´s would be perfectly balanced right? Huehuehue :lol:
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 04, 2013, 08:22:48 pm
I think we should nerf 2h. Especially agi 2h like katana. Why? Because those bind anti launcher ranged forces like shielders or throwers in melee. With a nerf, 2h will be dealt with more quickly, resulting in more time for ranged hunt. Crackpot theory style reasoning, am I doing it right?
I actually like this idea...
Title: Re: Ranged: Remove P dmg?
Post by: Jarold on December 05, 2013, 05:37:19 am