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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Lt_Anders on November 22, 2013, 10:55:45 pm

Title: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 22, 2013, 10:55:45 pm
To use Throwing lances: 7 PD
So, you need 21 strength. This then limits you to 21/15 or 21/18.
To get 21/18, though, you need to burn 6 points. At level 30 you get 31 Skill Points. That's 13/31 or almost Half of our total Skill points for what ever else.

There's other things as well, but it seems that a throwing lance was hurt way more by the WPF change than most other things since you NEED WPF to use it.(minimum is now 77, versus 91).

You definitely can't hybrid it at all and it is a useless weapon cause there's only 4 of them. Perhaps buff it in compensation or is there other things?
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Lennu on November 22, 2013, 10:59:12 pm


Maybe make throwing wpf gain same bonuses from other profiencies as melee does. This would help throwin hybrids a lot. Or simply just reduce the wpf requirement even further for throwing. But yeah, IMO throwin got really bad after the patch.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: San on November 22, 2013, 11:45:24 pm
But yeah, IMO throwin got really bad after the patch.

O_O Are we living in the same patch?

The throwing lancers I see in-game are doing just fine, too. Granted, they're way more skilled than the average player (Gafferjack and Sauce)
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Swaggart on November 22, 2013, 11:52:04 pm
Throwing got worse, even though the minimum wpf requirement was lowered.

Makes sense.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Mendro on November 23, 2013, 12:00:48 am
As thrower my feeling is throwing is fine, problems come from others rangeds too op sometimes (even if I think thrower is not a ranged class).
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Vermilion on November 23, 2013, 01:05:02 am
IMO throwing lances are balanced for a pure thrower.

However, for hybrids their requirement is too high for the WPF possible (unless you're level 36).

So unless you can find a way to lower their requirements for hybrids (which I think would be impossible or very easily abusable), I don't see anyway you can change their stats without unbalancing them.


Maybe some sort of system where for every 40 WPF (random number as an example) you put in melee, the WPP requirement per WPF drops by 1.
So if you had 120 in melee and 120 in throwing, instead of it costing 10 WPP to gain 1 more WPF in throwing, it cost 7 WPP.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Falka on November 23, 2013, 01:14:29 am
However, for hybrids their requirement is too high for the WPF possible (unless you're level 36).

Level: 31
(click to show/hide)

looks fine according to me.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 23, 2013, 02:19:21 am
Level: 31
(click to show/hide)

looks fine according to me.

I'm not 100% sure on that. 113 is fine for most others, but lances are still bloody slow. I mean, you STILL benefit from wpf before the patch, you just needed more minimum. 100 is optimal for a thrower, but you can't really hybridize (well, with a shield anyway.)

I'm still torn. I used to be 110/100 or so before patch (1h/thrower) and Now I'm 100/85(roughly). Playing a themed character(a Roman Legionnaire) was hard before, now it's just not fair.

Then of course, lances were not very good as throwing weapons to begin with.(As in choice) and this patch makes them less nice.(21 str Min requirement versus >18 for everything else.)
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 23, 2013, 02:30:33 am
Throwing lances are fine
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: IG_Saint on November 23, 2013, 03:57:25 am
Before the patch my throwing lancer was 21/18 with 140 throwing and 89 polearm, now 21/18 135/76 is the best I can do. Slight nerf so, a point or 2 in accuracy/speed (for throwing, I wouldn't touch the melee side) would seem a fair enough buff to compensate the lower maximum wpf.

The lowering of the minimum throwing wpf needed has had absolutely 0 effect imo, since you'll still need the same amount of wpf to get the accuracy and speed you had before the patch. In other words: needing less minimum wpf is a stupid "buff" when you'll still need the same amount of wpf as before to maintain your effiency with a weapon.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 23, 2013, 04:05:54 am
Before the patch my throwing lancer was 21/18 with 140 throwing and 89 polearm, now 21/18 135/76 is the best I can do. Slight nerf so, a point or 2 in accuracy/speed (for throwing, I wouldn't touch the melee side) would seem a fair enough buff to compensate the lower maximum wpf.

The lowering of the minimum throwing wpf needed has had absolutely 0 effect imo, since you'll still need the same amount of wpf to get the accuracy and speed you had before the patch. In other words: needing less minimum wpf is a stupid "buff" when you'll still need the same amount of wpf as before to maintain your effiency with a weapon.
Unless I'm horribly mistaken in regards to how the mechanics work then the PT/PD wpf penalty takes off of your wpf, it's not just a minimum requirement, so reducing the penalty by 2 would count as giving you 14 more wpf if you have 7 pt.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 23, 2013, 05:53:02 am
Having 7 PT doesn't make you a hybrid IMO...it's more of a "pure" build.  Maybe throwing lances are for pure throwers?  It would make sense that the highest tier of any weapon would be for "dedicated" builds.  I don't see a problem.  Use javelins.  And you could still use Falka's build and have throwing lances. 
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Tydeus on November 23, 2013, 06:42:19 am
Unless I'm horribly mistaken in regards to how the mechanics work then the PT/PD wpf penalty takes off of your wpf, it's not just a minimum requirement, so reducing the penalty by 2 would count as giving you 14 more wpf if you have 7 pt.
Indeed, so unless he changed his armor, he actually has higher effective throwing wpf than pre-patch. Furthermore, 2 accuracy and speed is worth a lot more than a mere 5 wpf.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Paul on November 23, 2013, 06:48:21 am
Before the patch my throwing lancer was 21/18 with 140 throwing and 89 polearm, now 21/18 135/76 is the best I can do. Slight nerf so, a point or 2 in accuracy/speed (for throwing, I wouldn't touch the melee side) would seem a fair enough buff to compensate the lower maximum wpf.

The lowering of the minimum throwing wpf needed has had absolutely 0 effect imo, since you'll still need the same amount of wpf to get the accuracy and speed you had before the patch. In other words: needing less minimum wpf is a stupid "buff" when you'll still need the same amount of wpf as before to maintain your effiency with a weapon.

Before 13*PT it substracted from your wpf. Now 11*PT.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on November 23, 2013, 07:26:05 am
Level: 31
(click to show/hide)

looks fine according to me.

I feel like this is pretty acceptable for a level 31 build. I'll  never be able to live out my dream of a shield/throwing/pole hoplite with throwing lances though. Unless I respec my main.

edit: Like horse archery, builds below 31 will always be lacking something.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 23, 2013, 07:49:02 am
Still losing a healthy chunk of wpf, which is needed for polearm wpf.  The requirement change means you need 14 less wpf to have the same effective wpf that you had before, but with only 6wm you're going to have less wpf.  Meanwhile the average wpf of other builds will be going up.  So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.

I gave up my polearm/throwing/cav build because I would not be effective in melee anymore.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Tovi on November 23, 2013, 10:28:41 am
My old build :
24/15
1h : 100     thr : 132
Ps 8      sh  5
If 0       ath  5
cav 5    PT 7
WM 5

Actual build :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


So, i loose some HP and PS, I gain Ath and Shield. I loose some cav too.
But with less throwing wpf I can wear some bigger armors.
It's ok for me but i'm level 34
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Boerenlater on November 23, 2013, 02:00:49 pm
I gave up on throwing lances/hoplite hybrid since the patch. Was imo not useful anymore at lvl 32.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Vermilion on November 23, 2013, 02:15:15 pm
Level: 31
(click to show/hide)

looks fine according to me.

That's the build I picked if I am going to keep the 7 PT (still haven't decided tho) (slightly different wpf distribution also but only by a couple points).

At the end of the day I know it doesn't really matter, a few extra or less points in WPF doesn't make that much of a difference. However, it does make a mental difference and throwing already has the lowest accuracy. IMO it would be better to rebalance throwing with a bit less damage and a bit more accuracy rather than trying to continue changing the WPF formula.

I think the melee hybrid bonus was the best thing about the WPF change. It's a shame throwing was left out of the bonus but at least we got a PT requirement reduction to balance the loss in WPF.
It's now just a mental game of getting your head around lowering your throwing numeral WPF from before while keeping the same in game accuracy.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 23, 2013, 03:26:28 pm
Well, you can go hybrid(100/90 or 97/97). I played with the numbers and you're not gimped to to badly.

And if what they said about WPF and the PT subtracting from the WPF(and then armor) to give you actual wpf...

But then, once again, lower tier throwing is still better.(by 11 free points of wpf!)
(click to show/hide)

So, can someone tell me the damage i would get from 85 wpf in throwing with lances. If the wpf subtraction is correct, that'd mean that i'm losing 15% damage because i have the minimum and once you subtract it, the wpf Bonus (that equation melee gets for damage it's the same here to right?) is at 0.

IE (WPF*0.01*.15+0.85) damage bonus. the WPF part would be 0 thus damage would be 0.85 or 85% of what it actually is.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 23, 2013, 04:17:57 pm
Seems odd that tydeus says he wants thrower especially to be able to melee and then provided no provisions for them.  Why not give throwing the same melee wpf synergy?
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: IG_Saint on November 23, 2013, 04:52:05 pm
Before 13*PT it substracted from your wpf. Now 11*PT.

Ah ok then, I always assumed it was just a minimum wpf needed, not an actual subtraction. Nevermind then, all is well.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Tydeus on November 23, 2013, 05:46:20 pm
Still losing a healthy chunk of wpf, which is needed for polearm wpf.  The requirement change means you need 14 less wpf to have the same effective wpf that you had before, but with only 6wm you're going to have less wpf.  Meanwhile the average wpf of other builds will be going up.  So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.

I gave up my polearm/throwing/cav build because I would not be effective in melee anymore.
Before the patch my throwing lancer was 21/18 with 140 throwing and 89 polearm, now 21/18 135/76 is the best I can do. Slight nerf so, a point or 2 in accuracy/speed (for throwing, I wouldn't touch the melee side) would seem a fair enough buff to compensate the lower maximum wpf.
So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.
14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 23, 2013, 07:10:45 pm
14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.

but you have to convert 8 skill points and you use 13 for just that. so 21/31 leaving you 10 points left(at level 30.)

Not at ALL "relatively effective." In fact, only a pure thrower wins, in this case because he can afford it to have only 4 ps with max ath.

You've effectively made throwing lance a lvl 31 build to use it at all remotely well.

You shouldn't be "forced" to have to spend 21 skill points or be a high enough level to use a weapon that has exactly 4 uses.(if maxed)
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Jarlek on November 23, 2013, 08:44:15 pm

Maybe make throwing wpf gain same bonuses from other profiencies as melee does.
-snip-
Hey! Thief!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 24, 2013, 12:40:00 am
Anders, you of course, are not forced to use 4 throwing lances.  However, doing anything else would be stupid and actually be more expensive, since you can never pay two repairs on the same item in the same round.

14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.

It was a nerf, because we're no longer getting high level freebie WPF.  At 33, I had 111 pole and 130 throwing, 21/18 builds.  Post patch, I could only get something like 105/110.  That is a nerf, my friend, no matter how you cut it.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Tydeus on November 24, 2013, 06:41:36 am
Anders, you of course, are not forced to use 4 throwing lances.  However, doing anything else would be stupid and actually be more expensive, since you can never pay two repairs on the same item in the same round.

It was a nerf, because we're no longer getting high level freebie WPF.  At 33, I had 111 pole and 130 throwing, 21/18 builds.  Post patch, I could only get something like 105/110.  That is a nerf, my friend, no matter how you cut it.
That's not a nerf to throwing lances, that's a nerf to people with 5/6 WM that are above level 30, meaning it's not weapon specific. Although it may affect throwing lances more often than other weapons, it's build specific. A weapon nerf would be a nerf to 100% of the builds that use the weapon, but that's not the case.

How you choose to talk about something influences how you(and others) end up thinking about it.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Vermilion on November 24, 2013, 01:03:48 pm
Why is it that Throwing Lances have the highest strength requirement in the game?

Throwing: Throwing Lances - 21
Bow: Long Bow - 18
XBow: Arbalest - 15
One Hand: Iron War Axe - 16
Two Hand: Great Maul - 20
Polearm: Long Maul - 18
Head Armor: Weimar Helmet - 16
Body Armor: Milanese Plate - 16
Hand Armor: Heavy Gauntlets -18
Leg Armor: Black Greaves -15

Except the Great Maul at  20 strengh, with 18 strength you can use every other weapon and piece of armor with a strength requirement (with the obvious exception of needing power draw/powerthrow, not just the strength).

Maybe the Great Maul and throwing lances requirement should be reduced to 18 so they fit in with the rest of the gear. Either that or the less favorable, raise the strength requirement of other items especially plate armor, long maul and arbalest.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Mendro on November 24, 2013, 05:13:05 pm
The fun with throwing lance is pure thrower don't use them a lot (except 1 or 2 cavs throwers) cause of low ammo. We don't spend 7 or more points in PT if it's just for playing throwers 1 minutes.

Add something like "Light throwing lance" with less requirement and less damage could be nice for hybrid.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: San on November 24, 2013, 05:32:41 pm
Raising the requirements of heavy gear sounds more favorable to me, at least for consistency's sake.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 24, 2013, 07:10:02 pm
That's not a nerf to throwing lances, that's a nerf to people with 5/6 WM that are above level 30, meaning it's not weapon specific. Although it may affect throwing lances more often than other weapons, it's build specific. A weapon nerf would be a nerf to 100% of the builds that use the weapon, but that's not the case.

How you choose to talk about something influences how you(and others) end up thinking about it.

Yes, but then you can't have a 21/21 thrower/melee hybrid, without sacrificing almost everything else or being level 34.  18 agi is really just about the upper limit for a throwing lance build that also wants to melee.

The fun with throwing lance is pure thrower don't use them a lot (except 1 or 2 cavs throwers) cause of low ammo. We don't spend 7 or more points in PT if it's just for playing throwers 1 minutes.

Add something like "Light throwing lance" with less requirement and less damage could be nice for hybrid.

Throwing spear or Jarids.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Mendro on November 24, 2013, 07:40:01 pm
Throwing spear or Jarids.

Jarids 40 pierce vs throwing lance 60 pierce.
Big difference, something miss between these 2 options.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Jarlek on November 24, 2013, 09:15:44 pm
Jarids 40 pierce vs throwing lance 60 pierce.
Big difference, something miss between these 2 options.
Something along 50p, 2 ammo?
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Mendro on November 24, 2013, 09:38:55 pm
Something along 50p, 2 ammo?

No cause HTA will be (more ?  :( ) useless. As I said I'm thinking about a kind of  "Light Throwing lance" with less requirement and damage. Like what javelins are for jarids.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 24, 2013, 09:46:34 pm
No cause HTA will be (more ?  :( ) useless. As I said I'm thinking about a kind of  "Light Throwing lance" with less requirement and damage. Like what javelins are for jarids.
lol at calling HTA useless, it is sort of a niche weapon atm, very useful if used right though.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Mendro on November 24, 2013, 10:05:50 pm
lol at calling HTA useless, it is sort of a niche weapon atm, very useful if used right though.

Yes useless was a bad word. I wanted to say something like "Unbalance compare with jarids, not fair for axe throwers users/lovers"
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Jarlek on November 24, 2013, 10:38:31 pm
No cause HTA will be (more ?  :( ) useless. As I said I'm thinking about a kind of  "Light Throwing lance" with less requirement and damage. Like what javelins are for jarids.
HTA needing a buff (better melee is my suggestion) doesn't mean we shouldn't have some sort of 2 ammo spear throwing weapon.

Also, HTA still got it's uses, but mainly for it's price.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 25, 2013, 04:52:03 pm
Raising the requirements of heavy gear sounds more favorable to me, at least for consistency's sake.
100% agree, but it would hurt some classes (like archery) if we raised the top weapons/gear to only suit "pure" builds (or more dedicated builds).  I do think there needs to be more 21 and above str requirements on certain armor and weapons. 
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: spiritus on December 06, 2013, 06:58:15 am
HMMM u get less wpf with 5 weaponmaster but you need less wpf to use throwing lance i say just leave it alone.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Thomek on December 06, 2013, 01:27:00 pm
It's fine. Throwing lances are and should be for the dedicated.

HT is far from useless! With speed bonus they do near Heavy Xbow damage with javs! Just a question of time before more people discover it. They are good against other cav too.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 06, 2013, 05:11:25 pm
It's fine. Throwing lances are and should be for the dedicated.

HT is far from useless! With speed bonus they do near Heavy Xbow damage with javs! Just a question of time before more people discover it. They are good against other cav too.
Javs are completely shit, either the guy who shot you had 10 pt or he was using jarrids/spears.
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: Thomek on December 06, 2013, 05:53:45 pm
wasnt jarids, but perhaps spears then :)

Anyway, on a high speed horse, they hit like a truck!
Title: Re: So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?
Post by: DrTaco on December 08, 2013, 08:09:50 pm
Just like everything else.