cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: JackieChan on November 16, 2013, 03:39:48 am

Title: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on November 16, 2013, 03:39:48 am
Why isnt it usable on horse back?
Apart from speed, it doesnt have any advantage compared to other similar sized shields such as the heavy norman shield. I feel like the stats were just put out randomly, eg its 7 weight but 2 slots?

(click to show/hide)


I'd rather see it usable on horse back and have its speed reduced. Atm berely anyone is using it.

Would be nice to see it change in the incoming patch  :)
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: owens on November 16, 2013, 07:04:25 am
This surprises me as really it has some of the best stats of any shield. (Health and speed)

I think its height would make it very powerful on horseback, If it is one slot that is why that could be another balancing factor.


Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 16, 2013, 07:11:03 am
That is a bit odd.

It's smaller and/or lighter than the Norman Shields, the Fur Covered Shield, and the Heavy Kite Shield.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on November 16, 2013, 01:15:22 pm
This surprises me as really it has some of the best stats of any shield. (Health and speed)

I think its height would make it very powerful on horseback, If it is one slot that is why that could be another balancing factor.
As Huscarlton_Banks says, it is smaller than the norman shields, but the norman shields are still usable on horse back  :?

If it is allowed on horseback, it should get a small nerf obviously, it speed should be reduced and it should be kept to 2 slots, but its weight increases to 8-9. (All other shield above 8 weight are 2 slots, and all the other ones below 8 weight are 1 slots, dunno why the triangle shield has to be different).


Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on November 17, 2013, 06:58:27 pm
bump
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Clockworkkiller on November 17, 2013, 07:09:43 pm
CHANGE IT TO WARHAMMER
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: owens on November 18, 2013, 12:05:31 am
Is this shield the best melee shield?

I think it is. Especially when heirloomed.



Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on November 18, 2013, 03:41:29 am
I never noticed how beefy it was for the speed + weight. Used an unloomed one and I think I like it better than my +3 steel buckler. With 7 shield skill it's pretty durable and incredibly fast. Good coverage too.

It's kind of annoying that all of the high tier shields are so heavy. Undermines a build that focuses on athletics and shield skill.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on November 18, 2013, 09:58:11 am
Yes yes, i understand that it has very nice stats, but thats not the question here.
If people think its one of the best shield around, why isnt anyone using it?

As i have said previously, remove its unusable on horseback perk and nerf its speed and weight. People will start using it a bit more (starting with me).

It would be nice to have a dev feedback or anyone in charge of item balancing (Tydeus?)
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Strudog on November 18, 2013, 10:17:16 am
Yes yes, i understand that it has very nice stats, but thats not the question here.
If people think its one of the best shield around, why isnt anyone using it?

As i have said previously, remove its unusable on horseback perk and nerf its speed and weight. People will start using it a bit more (starting with me).

It would be nice to have a dev feedback or anyone in charge of item balancing (Tydeus?)

This is never a valid argument to why a shield is OP or not, its peoples style and choice, some people like the look other shields than this one and prefer the use of others, i don't see anyone these days who looks at stats and decides on a shield then, for one i dont, i look at style over substance in c-rpg.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on November 18, 2013, 10:35:47 am
This is never a valid argument to why a shield is OP or not, its peoples style and choice, some people like the look other shields than this one and prefer the use of others, i don't see anyone these days who looks at stats and decides on a shield then, for one i dont, i look at style over substance in c-rpg.
You'd be surprised at how much people look at speed and weight for their shield, why do you think so much people use the elite cav shield and knightly kite shield? Only for style? i dont think so. I was pointing this out to show A_Hot_Elf_Princess and owens that even if the triangle shield seemed OP nobody is using it for a reason... you missed my point it seems like most people in this topic.

I love the style of the shield, mainly because it is Byzantine themed, but i cant use it because its unusable on horse back, this is why i made this topic. Not to discuss stats or anything else.

Again
It would be nice to have a dev feedback or anyone in charge of item balancing (Tydeus?)

Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Gurnisson on November 18, 2013, 02:58:47 pm
The number of armours it fits is not that high, unfortunately. Stat-wise it's quite the beast!

I'm in love with round heraldic shields myself and therefore use the regular round shield on the ground while I use the elite cav shield on horseback.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Phew on November 18, 2013, 03:03:42 pm
Is this shield the best melee shield?

I think it is. Especially when heirloomed.

Except the armor is so low, even loomed regular crossbows will penetrate it. Nothing more infuriating as a shielder than running at an xbowman with your shield up, then getting shot in the head through your shield. I use a 37 armor shield, and nothing penetrates except occasionally ballistae.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: owens on November 20, 2013, 01:19:20 pm
^That is true


Frankly I never had any problems with the elite cavs hp but if you wanted a shield to use against shield breakers, archers, throwers and in ordinary combat its pretty hard to match.

Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: AntiBlitz on November 20, 2013, 04:51:40 pm
because just like the Eastern horse, everything needs at least one statistically useless item.

Would u like more explanation Gurnisson?

You dont need anymore coverage or speed then a round shield, speed is useless, and it has poor armor.  Its not really good at anything, and more so excels at trying to be good at everything, which sounds just like the eastern horse, another useless item with bad stats and horrible difficulty.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/eastern-horsez!/msg830340/#msg830340
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Johammeth on November 20, 2013, 09:32:05 pm
I think I like it better than my +3 steel buckler.

BLASPHEMY!!!!
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on January 11, 2014, 04:48:37 pm
bump, hopefully now this willl get looked at  :D
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on February 25, 2014, 05:35:36 pm
bump, can any of the current devs have a look?
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Phew on February 25, 2014, 05:58:12 pm
The triangle shield is borderline OP as is. Since all shields were given armor bumps, the Triangle shield lost one of its only drawbacks (it used to be easy to penetrate with bolts). The weight is significantly lower than any shield with comparable durability. Compare it to the Heater Shield; it gains ~25% durability and 7 speed, and the only drawbacks are that it's 2-slot (a non-issue for dedicated builds) and non-heraldic.

If it was Heraldic, I think you'd see them everywhere. However, most shielders pick their shield based mostly on looks, since they all have the same melee coverage and last "long enough" against non-shieldbreaking weapons and they all break in a few swings from an axe.

Several other shields got "too good" after the armor buff as well (Hand Pavise and Board Shield primarily), so I expect they will be re-balanced sometime, along with the Triangle Shield.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: San on February 25, 2014, 06:30:49 pm
Problem with shields is that they simply get superior stats for every increase in difficulty level. Coverage, usable on horseback, round vs non-round, armour, hp, and speed are always changing for each shield, too. Because of that, it's difficult to say what shields are better.


I guess it makes sense to make triangle shield usable on horseback when looking at its weight, but then it would be good at pretty much everything, since it's pretty much a heavy norman shield with increased speed. This allows it to cross the boundaries between durability, speed, and coverage. It's barely balanced right now since all of the other 5 shield skill shields are highly specialized and able to overshadow it in certain areas.

@Phew
+3 knightly heater shield has ~1.4x more armour, but a +3 hand pavise has ~1.47x more hp and 0.5 more weight. I think it's tough to say which is better out of the two. Board shield also has less speed and armour than its neighbors, as well as +1 weight and the inability to be used on horseback. All that for roughly 100 more hp and better width coverage.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Phew on February 25, 2014, 07:32:19 pm
+3 knightly heater shield has ~1.4x more armour, but a +3 hand pavise has ~1.47x more hp and 0.5 more weight. I think it's tough to say which is better out of the two. Board shield also has less speed and armour than its neighbors, as well as +1 weight and the inability to be used on horseback. All that for roughly 100 more hp and better width coverage.

I always just look at how many 7PS, 120 wpf hits from a 40cut weapon a given shield can survive, and in that context the hand pavise, board shield, and triangle significantly outshine other shields with the same width+speed. Now that almost every shield stops bolts, the only "special" attribute that you gain with >24 armor appears to be resistance to ballista penetration, a very niche attribute.

That being said, I'm not too concerned with shield internal stat balance, because the differences between shields are still mostly cosmetic (they all offer basically the same benefits and drawbacks). My gripes with shields are mostly related to their mechanics in-game and the shield skill itself. Specifically, lately I've been particularly annoyed by:
-Lateral coverage in melee, specifically against polearm sideswing animations. With even the slightest bit of server lag, polearm sideswings seem to routinely go right around shield blocks even when you are seemingly facing directly at the guy. Manual blocking appears to have roughly three times the lateral coverage against melee as shields.
-Crushthrough calculation doesn't seem to properly account for shield weight. Case in point, ~2-3kg weapons seem to block crushthrough attempts more frequently than 4-5 kg shields, which seems odd.
-The "forcefield" against projectiles is virtually nonexistent in the lateral plane, even with 7 shield skill. Shield width seems to be the only thing that matters when you are trying to block projectiles that are coming slightly from the side. Longitudinal forcefield (especially downward) is almost excessively good, but lateral forcefield is nearly nonexistent. This makes approaching two or more archers nearly impossible.
-The shield nudges all have severe deficiencies; the defensive nudge doesn't block projectiles during any part of the animation, so there is basically nothing you can do when approaching an archer/xbowman other than wait for them to get tired of holding their shot or let them kick you. The defensive nudge should block projectiles during the early part of the animation, so you could use it to interrupt a ranged enemy that is holding a shot on you. The neutral nudge has a bizarre hitbox, and it frequently whiffs when it clearly should have landed.

San, do you mind sharing the new shield skill mitigation formula? Is it 8% base and 6%/skill?
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: San on February 25, 2014, 07:36:48 pm
10% + 6% * shield skill.

There are many aspects of shields that can't really be changed since it will break something in the game.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Bulzur on February 25, 2014, 07:59:25 pm
The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Triangle shield is the fear of most archers, since it's not that heavy, for an awesome coverage and a really big health. Even in melee, you'll have trouble breaking it. Boredom will usually make you try to chamber, spam, and lead you to your death if wielded by an experienced shielder.

I see no problem at all with it being unusable on horseback, since it's so big it would suck up arrows aiming for the horse.


I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.

"It's for the good of the mod ! No one uses it anyway."
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Phew on February 25, 2014, 08:00:16 pm
10% + 6% * shield skill.

There are many aspects of shields that can't really be changed since it will break something in the game.

Thanks. Although I remember the old forcefield (which was admittedly over-the-top), which was nerfed to the current state back when archers were a joke and Huscarl+Side Sword was the OP FOTM class. So the devs have demonstrated a willingness to mess with shield mechanics in the past.

Of the issues I mentioned, the lateral coverage against melee being too dependent on server performance is probably the most annoying, followed by the defensive nudge being an ineffective tool for interrupting ranged.

The other issues can be somewhat mitigated by just using a different shield (hate crushthrough? Steel Shield. Want more coverage against ranged? Use a Huscarl).

Quote
The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Yeah, I'd rock the hell out of the Triangle Shield if it was Heraldic. But those blue zigzags are so awful they even outweigh OP stats.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: MacLeod_ on February 26, 2014, 03:22:20 am
The Triangle Shield looks bad ass you guys are just blind!
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 26, 2014, 03:32:02 am
The Triangle Shield looks bad ass you guys are just blind!


Hells yes, makes a perfect Byzantine shield!


I actually use it when I bother donning my heavy armor, I just use the knightly heater as it shows off my clan emblem better and I need something lightweight for my usual setup.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on February 27, 2014, 12:37:17 am
The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Triangle shield is the fear of most archers, since it's not that heavy, for an awesome coverage and a really big health. Even in melee, you'll have trouble breaking it. Boredom will usually make you try to chamber, spam, and lead you to your death if wielded by an experienced shielder.

I see no problem at all with it being unusable on horseback, since it's so big it would suck up arrows aiming for the horse.


I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.

"It's for the good of the mod ! No one uses it anyway."
Actually, according to the website, the heavy norman shield got more height and Width than the triangle shield, but its still usable on horse back and 1 slot.
Yes you are right, i want to personally use it on horse back, because thats one of the ways it was meant to be used. Most of the time im trying to RP  Byzantine theme but the shield has always been a problem as there wasent any Byzantine shields. I was happy they added one but  they made it unusable on horse back and i think its rather stupid.
Quote
I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.
How you said this made it look like i want both the shield to be buffed and usable on horse back. But if you had read my post more clearly i said that the shield should be nerfed if it could be usable on horse back.

As i said previously, it would be nice to have a dev feeback. Thanks
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: San on February 27, 2014, 01:29:56 am
Not a dev, but I'm probably your best bet for now, dude. To have it usable by horseback, it'll have to get nerfed in durability.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Kamirane on February 27, 2014, 01:39:11 am
maybe just adding a similar shield that just can be used on horseback with slightly nerfed stats? Horsemen“s Triangle Shield? So the actual Shield doesnt get nerfed for those who still want to use it just on feet only.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on February 27, 2014, 03:14:46 am
maybe just adding a similar shield that just can be used on horseback with slightly nerfed stats? Horsemen“s Triangle Shield? So the actual Shield doesnt get nerfed for those who still want to use it just on feet only.
thats a good idea
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: San on February 27, 2014, 03:36:52 am
Unless there's another model, it'll be quite confusing...

Since not many people use this, to make it usable on horseback, Hp has to be reduced to 400-420. That'll make it a low armor variant with stats between a kite shield + norman shield with good speed.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: Phew on February 27, 2014, 03:01:43 pm
Unless there's another model, it'll be quite confusing...

Since not many people use this, to make it usable on horseback, Hp has to be reduced to 400-420. That'll make it a low armor variant with stats between a kite shield + norman shield with good speed.

I've barely seen a Triangle Shield on NA, and it seems like the Byzantium folks on EU would mostly prefer this be a cavalry shield, so your proposed change would probably be well-received.

How difficult would it be to add a new shield with the current Triangle Shield's stats/model but Heraldic? Call it Heraldic Triangle Shield or something. There is a dearth of fast 2-slot shields, so most dedicated shielders still use the fast 1-slot shields even though they have spare slots.

EDIT: Similarly, what about adding 2-slot versions of the ECS and Knightly shields that use the same models as their 1-slot versions but with roughly the same stat modifications as Heater->Heavy Heater? i.e. +1kg, -3 speed, +5 armor, +25% HP? I equip a Heavy Crossbow sometimes because I figure "why not, I have the slots", but better 2-slot shields might entice me to forego the crossbow. 1h+shield+xbow seems to be the whine of the month, but most of us only do it because we don't have anything better to use our slots on.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: BlindGuy on February 27, 2014, 03:20:39 pm
No, shield is OP as it is, doesnt need anything, 2slot shields are slow for a reason, this breaks as it is.
Title: Re: Triangle Shield
Post by: JackieChan on March 01, 2014, 02:45:47 pm
bp