We’ve decided to finally address the STR v AGI & WM issues and have decided on a rework to wpp totals, wpp costs and WM effectiveness formulas. Since this will affect everyone, we've decided to give everyone access to the exact formula and to give players the opportunity to ask some questions and give responses to the proposed change. Some questions I have asked are; Should we let the community make the final decision, what exactly should the new wpf formula look like and most importantly, how to handle reimbursements?
So what does the change look like? For starters, free wpf from leveling has been removed. Second, the new base wpp (weapon proficiency point) allows for 20 wpf (weapon proficiency) in a single weapon type. Next, each point in Agility will now grant you varying amounts of wpp. Finally, 6 WM was chosen as the amount one would need to remain mostly unaffected by this change; 5 or fewer points result in lower wpf values, 7 or greater result in higher wpf values.
Sounds great, but what does it look like? Well, here:
For most hybrids, there are two possibilities for how this can affect you. If you have an even 1:1 split, you will find yourself having less wpf in both, up until higher WM values. If you have something like a 2:1 split, you will go largely unaffected.
If you don't read the forums much or you haven't been around very long, maybe you’re wondering why we’re even doing this. Well, there are two reasons and they’ve been complained about quite consistently for years now. First, is that strength synergizes with so many different things that it’s objectively the better of the two attributes. Second, WM and wpf scaling leaves much to be desired. A dedicated melee build simply doesn’t gain much from WM past 3 or so points. Strength stackers shouldn’t be able to completely forsake WM and Agility without worry. Stacking anything, regardless of what it is, should always come at the cost of something else that is equally important.
Now with that out of the way, we can get to the part where we want the community’s input. Of course there is the obvious “what do you think of the change?” but what we’re more interested in, is what you believe the minimal reimbursement would be for implementing this. We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan). It’s clear that full respects aren’t desired on our end (chadz says no), so what could you get by with, without an excessive amount of QQ? :P
All responses and critiques appreciated(Aside from grammatical ones). Thanks for reading.
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.
Edit 2: For clarification on the current(could change) reimbursement... The patch will come out and people will log in to begin playing. They will then notice they have 6 more attributes that they can spend and 6 less str than what they had before. They will also notice that any skill points they had that would have required higher values of str than what they currently(the moment after the patch goes live) have, were also refunded. So 18str and 6 powerstrike and 6 iron flesh gets turned into 12 str, 4 powerstrike, 4 iron flesh and you're credited the points.
if you are only interested in damage bonus, here is a table of new and old damages for a weapon with base damage 40 (average greatsword damage)
BaseDamage: 40
str
ps
agi
wm
if
wpfold
wpfnew
damold
damnew
36
12
3
0
11
111
20
86.8936
76.192
33
11
6
2
8
123
76
84.3944
79.0928
30
10
9
3
7
130
100
81.24
78
27
9
12
4
6
138
121
78.1216
76.3672
24
8
15
5
5
146
139
74.9264
74.2376
21
7
18
6
4
154
155
71.6544
71.748
18
6
21
7
3
163
170
68.3944
69.016
15
5
24
8
2
172
184
65.048
66.056
12
4
27
9
1
180
198
61.536
62.9616
These are the generic level 30 builds which are most commonly used. As you can see, WPF plays almost no part in the damage calculation, and full str builds are still more than viable under the changes. The major fault with the current system is the insanely low swingspeed increase per wpf (something like .0001 per WPF if i remember correctly? so 200 wpf is 2% increase...) and the fact that STR gives 1 hp per raw stat, and is tied to iron flesh. Neither of these issues are addressed, so I don't know what this change accomplishes.
I will make a note that none of this includes speedbonuses, which I have no idea how to factor in. Also, 27/12 or 30/9 will be the new cheese builds that everyone complains about.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Eugen on November 10, 2013, 10:13:17 pm
I don't like that it fucks hybrids even more.
Lobbying for Hybrid class -> I play hybrid class.
Case closed.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Grumbs on November 10, 2013, 11:25:00 pm
Think its a good excuse for semi respec. Besides that I don't really care too much. I'll go 18/24 instead of my usual 24/18
If you want to be uber hybrid then go for more WM, its what the skill is for. The game doesn't suit hybriding too much anyway, thats why we have classes
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on November 11, 2013, 05:21:10 am
It's going to make hitting 34 even more fun. 21/21 should be ridiculous with 7 WM all in one spec :mrgreen:
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on November 11, 2013, 05:30:22 am
This seems kinda redundant, since this discussion is going on in the official thread Tydeus posted to announce the change :?
But to post some content, my current build has a goal of 24/21 with only PS, shield, and Ath. Gonna have to think things over, since that was my hopeful "final build" for my main.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: EyeBeat on November 11, 2013, 05:53:09 am
I am glad that hybrids are finally getting nerfed.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: ArysOakheart on November 11, 2013, 07:00:48 am
I am glad that hybrids are finally getting nerfed.
But my Trident will be even slower :(
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: ARN_ on November 11, 2013, 09:32:43 am
Bring back eu4!
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Heibai on November 11, 2013, 10:33:11 am
Agi builds gonna be even more annoying on normal battle/siege mode.
But actually a good balance for strat, because str builds were dominating strat battles, especially sieges. (Except 1-2 individuals)
As a mainly strat player, I'm happy to see less pure str players in these battles and more balanced builds. High agi builds (under 15/12 str) are fucked anyways on strat :)
Just my opinion.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Tindel on November 11, 2013, 11:55:40 am
It makes 0 WM builds less good, thus a nerf to str monster builds. Which i think is good because full agi builds are gimp. It is a slight buff to specs with high WM, which wont do much because WM in itself doesnt really do much. People who want to hybrid spec have to use alot of WM to make it work, so 18agi minimum.
All in all i dont think it will do much, since wpf does so little overall. And if it means less people with ranged sidearms, i will be happy
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Leshma on November 11, 2013, 12:01:50 pm
The game doesn't suit hybriding too much anyway, thats why we have classes
Warband has classes, cRPG doesn't. Just because you choose to use one weapon and put all weapon proficiency points in that branch doesn't mean you're bound to a specific class.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Bjord on November 11, 2013, 12:11:15 pm
I'm pretty chill where I am right now; 21/21. The wpf respec suits me well, going to go back to swashbuckling.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Algarn on November 11, 2013, 12:16:50 pm
I wonder if I should become a pure ranged whore at the moment ... Put 6 PS and PD , and everything else in agi skills.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Tzar on November 11, 2013, 12:31:56 pm
Like it, but since it will wreck hybrids i say fuck it.....
Hybrids have never been better then pure builds. So its retarded it gets nerfed.....
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Akynos on November 11, 2013, 03:48:56 pm
Str was a bit too easy as one could swing quite fast for a metal turtle. Now with 20 WPF you'll still have a great damage output whilst being truly vulnerable to agi builds. This is how it should have always been.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Prpavi on November 11, 2013, 04:22:03 pm
I'm pretty chill where I am right now; 21/21. The wpf respec suits me well, going to go back to swashbuckling.
Same here, 18/24 I'll have 184wpf with +3 QQStaff, think it might be a bit ridiculous, we'll see
I only dread the hordes of left swing agi shileders with same wpf
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Molly on November 11, 2013, 04:30:09 pm
Had a fun encounter with one of those on EU1 a few minutes back:
He circled me while spaming left swing with his spamitar while I stood still and just held my block, turning with him.
I think I've never before blocked so many swings in a row :D
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: Teeth on November 11, 2013, 04:46:48 pm
I find the cost formula change highly unnecessary, why does hybridizing need a nerf? In my opinion the cost formula should have been left untouched. Apart from that it is a good and long over due change that will change the game for the better.
Title: Re: What is your opinions on the WPF re-work?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 11, 2013, 05:02:42 pm
I think this was a very good change, but it will fuck people over if we don't get a proper respec. The horse riding difficulty changes (like courser going from 4 to 6 riding) was a very good change. But there was no respec, so it really fucked over quite a few people. I think this new WPF rework will fuck over even more people. That being said, I think it's an important change, and one that I always felt made the most sense. You shouldn't get "free" WPF unless you put points into Agility or WM.