cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torben on October 25, 2013, 01:15:14 pm
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Holla! qué tal??
The internal balance of lances is off a tad.
A speed buff to the heavy lance would make it once again a great weapon without making it superior to the lance, however a real option.
Its low speed alone already makes it quite predictable.
In combination with its low damage, its use is even more limited as it doesnt do damage outside of said sweet spot.
Because of its predictability, its sweet spot can easily be outmaneuvered by the target.
I suggest the speed buff instead of a damage buff, to keep the L and HL balanced and an option for people who prefer one or the other.
The speed buff to the HL will not buff total damage done on a successful hit.
The speed buff will however lay the success of a hit more into the hands of the lancer.
It will be less about surprising the opponent, and more about landing a hit skillfully.
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Type:Polearm
Requirement:11 strength
Weight:1.8
Slots:2
Upkeep:679 gold
Shop price:9,702 gold
Value:4,851 gold
Speed:74 :arrow: 84
Length:190
Thrust:24 pierce
Swing:17 blunt
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I call bias, you have obvious financial interest in this
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A small speed increase would be fine, but 10 points? I think that might be a bit excessive.
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I think a speed buff to the heavy lance would be great. Adding 10 speed could make it a viable ground weapon as well.
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I call bias, you have obvious financial interest in this
howabout me being a heavy lancer?
double bias ftw! :mrgreen:
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The slow speed increases the damage cap for the HL from horseback through timing of hit. Hypothetically, you could score a hit that does more damage than the other thrustable lances due to this factor. If you speed it up, sure on foot it would be a somewhat more viable polearm, but the damage gain from horseback would be nullified and you would indirectly nerf heavy lancers.
Info Source: Devilize, ShinOCK, self testing
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The slow speed increases the damage cap for the HL from horseback through timing of hit. Hypothetically, you could score a hit that does more damage than the other thrustable lances due to this factor. If you speed it up, sure on foot it would be a somewhat more viable polearm, but the damage gain from horseback would be nullified and you would indirectly nerf heavy lancers.
Info Source: Devilize, ShinOCK
whats a damage cap? if youre talking about speed bonus, it aint true.
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No no, not speed bonus. I'm talking about the lance projectile time/hit ratios. Look into the game files and do some math, if you feel like being a nerd like me :oops:
Weapon stat damage>lance projectile flight time>speed of lance projectile>lance projectile time of impact>movement speed bonus>speed of weapon>overall flight time from release of thrust>powerstrike modifier>effective WPF = overall damage
Should look something like that when you do the maths. I hate math.
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No no, not speed bonus. I'm talking about the lance projectile time/hit ratios. Look into the game files and do some math, if you feel like being a nerd like me :oops:
hm, I think i get what you mean... maybe game in NA is still like it was a year ago or so, but here things have changed and a quicker lance gives you the option to at least hit an agi guy that knows what hes doing. My 2cents, but ofc not end to all means.
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im not some uber pro cav, only played lancer for 1gen, and to me the HL is absolutely useless
i always only used the L and GL cause the speed of the HL (i had around 135wpf) was rediculously slow, so i think especially new cav players would benefit from the speed buff
and as it was mentioned, the generel damage output might be nerfed by that, thats mostly the case for experienced cav players, and i guess those have actually enough experience to still hit the sweetspot
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Ideally I'd like to see a way for lancers with the proper WPF in pole arms to be able to useful while those without it will feel useless. But how could that be implemented?
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The slow speed increases the damage cap for the HL from horseback through timing of hit. Hypothetically, you could score a hit that does more damage than the other thrustable lances due to this factor. If you speed it up, sure on foot it would be a somewhat more viable polearm, but the damage gain from horseback would be nullified and you would indirectly nerf heavy lancers.
Info Source: Devilize, ShinOCK, self testing
Paul claims this isn't true. I can't say for sure, because I'm too busy glancing.
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I say no. Don't increase the speed. Just bump the damage up one more base damage. Heavy Lance used to be 26p damage (non-loomed), it was nerfed to 23. Now it sits at 24. I think moving it up to 25 would be fine and justified. I'd still use the lance though, I think it's a better all around weapon (better at killing infantry, get more swings per minute in, and can do more damage). This would put the heavy lance back into the "top spot" for lancers and would justify it's more expensive price.
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I'm not sure if speed should be increased above 80. +5 speed and +1 damage sounds good to me.
Ideally I'd like to see a way for lancers with the proper WPF in pole arms to be able to useful while those without it will feel useless. But how could that be implemented?
Only way is probably to simply maintain a higher difference in effective wpf, meaning that in the same armor (of all weights) and different wpf the difference should remain the same. Currently, people with high wpf are losing so much from average levels of armor that it's not much different than people with low wpf. I had ~95 wpf in polearms and used a pre-nerf heavy-lance and switched post-nerf to lance and had minimal problems after getting used to it. High wpf polearms on skilled players did pose a problem with timing, but I feel that this difference should be more noticeable with smaller wpf differences, not a massive one like 160+ vs 95.
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I call bias, you have obvious financial interest in this
maybe but H lance suck a lot anyway
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I'm not sure if speed should be increased above 80. +5 speed and +1 damage sounds good to me.
Only way is probably to simply maintain a higher difference in effective wpf, meaning that in the same armor (of all weights) and different wpf the difference should remain the same. Currently, people with high wpf are losing so much from average levels of armor that it's not much different than people with low wpf. I had ~95 wpf in polearms and used a pre-nerf heavy-lance and switched post-nerf to lance and had minimal problems after getting used to it. High wpf polearms on skilled players did pose a problem with timing, but I feel that this difference should be more noticeable with smaller wpf differences, not a massive one like 160+ vs 95.
There is a surprising amount of 1wpf lancers who are effective. I'd like to see them sacrificed if dedicated lancers could receive a buff in exchange. cyranule used 106 wpf, you used 95 and PhantomZero used 50. All three effective, but I think Phantom was the best lancer if the bunch.
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That's anecdotal. I notice a big difference between 1 wpf with lances from horse, and 120.
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I used Heavy Lance for a long time, but since it got overnerfed, I stopped using it, like most people. Today, the "Heavy" Lance is weaker than all other lances, I mean there's something wrong. I appreciate that you started that thread, but I would like it more when speed stays the same, but damage increases. 8-)
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if this buff will incease the lance cav population and by that decrease ranged population im all in.
how bad is it really, I heaven't played lanced for atleast a year, I'll respec my asshole HA and try the Heavy Lance, really curious.
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Heavy Lance has been pretty much worthless for a long time. It needs some help...anything will do honestly.
I vote to increase damage and increase couch damage on all lances. That should do it.
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That's anecdotal. I notice a big difference between 1 wpf with lances from horse, and 120.
Right, but what I'm saying is you shouldn't be able to do well with 1wpf in pole arms or even just 50. Most aren't crazy enough to use any melee weapon without 100 WPF and even still you have to choose your opponents.
Maybe if wpf and possibly riding effected the angles you could reach, that would be a good balancing tool.
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Right, but what I'm saying is you shouldn't be able to do well with 1wpf in pole arms or even just 50. Most aren't crazy enough to use any melee weapon without 100 WPF and even still you have to choose your opponents.
Maybe if wpf and possibly riding effected the angles you could reach, that would be a good balancing tool.
Oh right, I totally missed the point...my bad yo
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how bad is it really, I heaven't played lanced for atleast a year, I'll respec my asshole HA and try the Heavy Lance, really curious.
As someone who has done all but 4 generations as lancer, I can tell you it's not "bad" but it's no where it used to be. Watch the old school heavy lancers when they finally get on. They still do great with the heavy lance and don't complain about the nerfs.
What they do complain about though is the archer population. Champion Cataphract downed by 3 arrows from 1 archer who's solely hunting you because you killed his melee main one to may times? Might as well use a Rouncey at that rate and save yourself some cash.
Nerf Ranged, Buff "Heavy Glance"
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heavy cav lancers are str lance, so they arent hit that bad from the nerf. try 5 or 6ps ^^
btw just used the HL on a tincan strat battle, it needs a damage buff :'|
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As someone who has done all but 4 generations as lancer, I can tell you it's not "bad" but it's no where it used to be. Watch the old school heavy lancers when they finally get on. They still do great with the heavy lance and don't complain about the nerfs.
What they do complain about though is the archer population. Champion Cataphract downed by 3 arrows from 1 archer who's solely hunting you because you killed his melee main one to may times? Might as well use a Rouncey at that rate and save yourself some cash.
Nerf Ranged, Buff "Heavy Glance"
I'll assume you're talking about TommyHu and Devilize, since pretty much everyone else has stopped being a lancer. Those guys are high level 34 or 35, so they don't make the best examples. Also I'm pretty sure everything they wear is +3.
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You are indeed correct. I learned alot from Tommy Dev Huesby and Shin.
I was lvl 34 Heavy Lancer with 11PS. Was awesome. One shot anyone who wasn't in 75+ body armor on thrusts. Made everything all better. But that was just me going to the extreme to make my favorite lance seem like how it was over a year ago.
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Eh 8 PS on a 5 riding horse isn't going to be much more damage than 7 PS and me on a courser. If anything I'd think I would do more damage at full speed. And the heavy lance is still pretty terrible unless you're hitting another cavalry or someone with low armor and not running in the same direction as you.
Tommy (don't think he plays much anymore) wears light armor, no helmet and only has his courser and heavy lance at +3. Don't think he has any other looms. And I'm not positive but I think he might be level 34 (possibly, might only be 33). For damage output, there's just no comparison between a heavy lance and a lance. I'd rather use a great lance than a heavy lance.
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Eh 8 PS on a 5 riding horse isn't going to be much more damage than 7 PS and me on a courser. If anything I'd think I would do more damage at full speed. And the heavy lance is still pretty terrible unless you're hitting another cavalry or someone with low armor and not running in the same direction as you.
Tommy (don't think he plays much anymore) wears light armor, no helmet and only has his courser and heavy lance at +3. Don't think he has any other looms. And I'm not positive but I think he might be level 34 (possibly, might only be 33). For damage output, there's just no comparison between a heavy lance and a lance. I'd rather use a great lance than a heavy lance.
Was running bets between you guys on who would score first blood, who would end up with more kills etc. last night