cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Molly on October 19, 2013, 08:13:34 pm

Title: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Molly on October 19, 2013, 08:13:34 pm
Probably everyone who played lately on EU1 noticed the high amount of ranged players.

I'd like to suggest a way that may lower the numbers without touching any stats, not accuracy, not damage... no nerfing involved.

Disallow players to create alternative characters with any ranged proficiency. No points in archery nor crossbow. Only thing to debate would be if this includes throwing.

The result will - hopefully - be that only those who want to dedicate them to ranged actually play it.

Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Eugen on October 19, 2013, 08:29:37 pm
Poor idea. You really imagine anyone is going to restrict class-choice ???  :shock:

Seriously. Are you so pissed about archery? Go cav then (as alt maybe, but what if I'd propose to forbid cav as alt?)

No more words... but... No.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 19, 2013, 09:15:35 pm
Just make all the ranged players wear a special badge... Then a little bit later on force all the ranged players to relocate to the ghetto.  Then round them up and bring them all to "ranged camp"
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Eugen on October 19, 2013, 09:37:10 pm
Just make all the ranged players wear a special badge... Then a little bit later on force all the ranged players to relocate to the ghetto.  Then round them up and bring them all to "ranged camp"


 :twisted:  just what i thought, but didnt dare to say  (zynism of op included - for them who dont see it)
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 09:38:19 pm
duh, even my idea of class ratios was better...
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Xant on October 19, 2013, 09:39:51 pm
duh, even my idea of class ratios was better...

No, it really isn't. But then I'm not surprised you're not capable of thinking about the implications of having class ratios.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 09:40:31 pm
No, it really isn't. But then I'm not surprised you're not capable of thinking about the implications of having class ratios.

good, maybe you have a better idea then?
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Xant on October 19, 2013, 09:50:03 pm
There's a better idea in the OP.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 09:50:33 pm
There's a better idea in the OP.

nice joke, try harder.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 19, 2013, 09:51:56 pm
You really want to restrict class choices? Do you like chocolate chip cookies?
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Xant on October 19, 2013, 09:52:07 pm
Didn't say it was a good idea, just better. But then just about anything would be better than enforced class ratios in a mod like cRPG.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Eugen on October 19, 2013, 09:54:25 pm
class balance would be a thing. but note: i am not for this. every round would be the same then. IMO its nice to have archers vs cav. Melee vs cav&archers .... 
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 09:55:27 pm
Didn't say it was a good idea, just better. But then just about anything would be better than enforced class ratios in a mod like cRPG.

oh yes sure, there was never a game with class limitation ever right?

so you say that forbidding everyone from making an alt with any ranged proficency is better than limiting people to play a certain class?

you do understand that this will have no actual impact on ranged right? because everyone will just make the archer/thrower/xbowman their main, and melee their alt, completely bypassing this.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Xant on October 19, 2013, 09:56:29 pm
oh yes sure, there was never a game with class limitation ever right?
Reading comprehension is very difficult, isn't it?
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 10:00:14 pm
Reading comprehension is very difficult, isn't it?

then tell me, why do you think this is bad idea?

oh hey look, i will say this is a bad idea myself, if you can come up with better, okay?
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Mlekce on October 19, 2013, 10:02:53 pm
Get a shield,lol.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Xant on October 19, 2013, 10:03:35 pm
then tell me, why do you think this is bad idea?

oh hey look, i will say this is a bad idea myself, if you can come up with better, okay?

Because you can't have a game with classes and leveling and persistent characters and then arbitrarily tell people they suddenly can't play their character that they've spent all that time on.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Molly on October 19, 2013, 11:05:37 pm
Just make all the ranged players wear a special badge... Then a little bit later on force all the ranged players to relocate to the ghetto.  Then round them up and bring them all to "ranged camp"
Really? I mean... wtf... some people in this community are just broken.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 11:12:25 pm
Because you can't have a game with classes and leveling and persistent characters and then arbitrarily tell people they suddenly can't play their character that they've spent all that time on.

why not?

lets see, we have few choices

1: dont limit anything and let the ranged play as they please.
2: limit them to certain number by class
3: nerf them
4: OPs idea
5: buffing cavalry
6: buffing movement speed
7: buffing shield coverage

thats all i can think of right now.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Boerenlater on October 19, 2013, 11:27:29 pm
I support Molly's idea.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Eugen on October 19, 2013, 11:51:34 pm
its a EU1 idea. it must have been communist... (what was it again? I even replied to it... but... what do you support witht the words: "do uselses posts increase with the amount of archery?" ?)
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Bulzur on October 20, 2013, 05:22:05 am
Since my main is a range, this doesn't concern me at all.

Though it would mean not being able to pew pew all thoses noob alts, or level 30 stf. A shame, really.


You just know there's some "time" where you just can't play if you're a melee (even with a shield). When 80% of the server is range, and that there's not a single cav, the 20% melee are just moving targets. And... no. It's not fun being a moving target. So, they quit. And all newcomers will also quit, untill those range leave.

You just "have" to get a range alt if you want to play on eu1 at this hours. But at the other hours, it's totally bearable.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Tibe on October 20, 2013, 08:27:41 am
I dont know. I get a feeling too that its a bit chocolatechipcookie-ish. Its basically beating rangedplayers with a stick and making them look like the problem.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: oohillac on October 20, 2013, 08:32:00 am
This would royally fuck over NA, which is already scarce archer- and crossbow-wise.  Ranged keep the cavalry and strength-stackers in check.

If NA doesn't remember the fabled Time of No Ranged At All (Except That One Guy Who Wears Samurai Armour and Carries a Shield Too) roughly two years ago, half the teams were Courser lancers and NOBODY HAD FUN
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Havoco on October 20, 2013, 09:31:54 am
It's pretty obvious the game needs a completely new dynamic as far as class popularity. Fat chance of them adding that to crpg though.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Prpavi on October 20, 2013, 11:22:08 am
This would royally fuck over NA, which is already scarce archer- and crossbow-wise.


Sounds like LaLa land!!

Back on topic, I don't really support the idea, if you allow alts and skip the fun then you must allow all the freedom to the play as you wish, other option would be to disallow alts which is utterly chocolate chip cookie and I don't support it.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Templar_Steevee on October 20, 2013, 01:55:13 pm
Many players are whining about range all the time "they are too many, too stronk" but as an archer I can say that lots of them are asking about to get shot.
Running in the open field in a straigth line or standing still are not a good ideas.

Try to use terrain to minimize posibillity to get shot, also if you are aware you can dodge arrows, it's not so hard (it's harder to dodge bolts but still possible)

Some of you will say that impossible to not get shot, and sometimes it's true. I can say that sometimes there is so many cav on a server that I can shoot max 5 arrows before i die...
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Kafein on October 20, 2013, 02:18:51 pm
Way to attack the symptoms and not the problem. That would only penalize people that have melee mains and hide the problem further, discouraging any change that would actually solve the cause of the problem.

I say let's invade the servers with as much ranged as possible until something gets done.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Sharpe on October 20, 2013, 03:08:26 pm
Just make all the ranged players wear a special badge... Then a little bit later on force all the ranged players to relocate to the ghetto.  Then round them up and bring them all to "ranged camp"

Now at this camp, will there be fun activities? Like Evade the Enemy Calvary, Target Practice, and my personal favorite Using your Arrows as Shanks: A Guide to Prison Life and you.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 20, 2013, 04:28:10 pm
This would royally fuck over NA, which is already scarce archer- and crossbow-wise.  Ranged keep the cavalry and strength-stackers in check.

If NA doesn't remember the fabled Time of No Ranged At All (Except That One Guy Who Wears Samurai Armour and Carries a Shield Too) roughly two years ago, half the teams were Courser lancers and NOBODY HAD FUN

polearms keep cav in check. archers miss them pretty often.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Osiris on October 20, 2013, 08:57:28 pm
allow ashwood on horse :D would lower ranged overnight ^^
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 20, 2013, 09:01:31 pm
I am taking this back, fuck all ideas!

Melee only server nao.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Bjord on October 20, 2013, 09:08:22 pm
I am taking this back, fuck all ideas!

Melee only server nao.

You already have a red light sabre, I'm afraid it's too late for you to take anything back. Your shitposting was overflowing.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 20, 2013, 09:14:38 pm
You already have a red light sabre, I'm afraid it's too late for you to take anything back. Your shitposting was overflowing.

I dont fucking care about that, but I got shot 8 times on 3 seconds. that shit is insane.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Bjord on October 20, 2013, 09:16:42 pm
I dont fucking care about that, but I got shot 8 times on 3 seconds. that shit is insane.

Yeah, so you made a butt hurt thread.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 20, 2013, 09:18:09 pm
Yeah, so you made a butt hurt thread.

On what? CT?

I still think that feature is bullshit, as it rewards brawns over brain.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Havoco on October 21, 2013, 05:53:19 am
So, since this always seems to be a problem in EU because of their larger population (more ranged is more effective than having more inf for instance) I think there is a middle ground here as well as fixing another thing that has bothered ppl.

1. Split the weather system between NA and EU, or even between servers.
2. Add a function where if the server has over a percent of x class(judged by highest wpf, or maybe something else) the server switches to the most disadvantageous weather for this class.
3. Obviously the weather would need tweaking, maybe making weather clearly hinder a certain class.
4. Riding skill would need to be added to the function but I don't see that being very hard.
5. I also think it would be better to have a possibility that no weather effects is possible in a balanced server.

Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: oohillac on October 21, 2013, 07:38:54 am
add more maps with cover (rocks, trees, random palisades, whatever) and/or go back and add cover objects to current maps

problem solved
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 21, 2013, 08:39:04 am
If you hate archers make agi-rondel dagger stf's. They rape archers. Also stop qq, get a shield.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Templar_Steevee on October 21, 2013, 11:34:53 am
I dont fucking care about that, but I got shot 8 times on 3 seconds. that shit is insane.

1) you are probably a brainless guy charging group of joke archers all the time (most ppl can't survive more than 4 arrows)
2) you are probably NA guy, so you should be happy that I and for ex Bagge and Robin can't shoot you every round
3) Cry baby, cry  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 21, 2013, 03:12:33 pm
1) you are probably a brainless guy charging group of joke archers all the time (most ppl can't survive more than 4 arrows)
2) you are probably NA guy, so you should be happy that I and for ex Bagge and Robin can't shoot you every round
3) Cry baby, cry  :mrgreen:

1] It was EU_1
2] Damage depends on who shoots
3] You should be saying this to op.

Silly fool...
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 04:04:20 pm
Steevee is right. Stop whining about archers whereas a single 1h cav can kill 3 if he plays well . An archer must get a protection from teammates and or a good spot. If he play without those, he dies like an idiot. Just a random question, try to guess my K/D as archer. It's not 3/1 or 2/1 , it's 1.5/1 because I die like an idiot without teammates or against 3 lancers. Also, a random ninja/daggercunt kills me 25% of time. Just deal with it , archers aren't "OP" in all situations. Anyway this thread is pointless, like 99.9% of threads generated by QQ.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 21, 2013, 04:30:10 pm
Obligatory response:

C-rpg will not be nerfing or buffing because you refuse to use teamwork or tactics.  Have a good day sir
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Gurnisson on October 21, 2013, 04:38:18 pm
Steevee is right. Stop whining about archers whereas a single 1h cav can kill 3 if he plays well . An archer must get a protection from teammates and or a good spot. If he play without those, he dies like an idiot. Just a random question, try to guess my K/D as archer. It's not 3/1 or 2/1 , it's 1.5/1 because I die like an idiot without teammates or against 3 lancers. Also, a random ninja/daggercunt kills me 25% of time. Just deal with it , archers aren't "OP" in all situations. Anyway this thread is pointless, like 99.9% of threads generated by QQ.

But you one-shot me once in 59 body armour when I played 1h cav. :(

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 04:41:03 pm
But you one-shot me once in 59 body armour when I played 1h cav. :(

(click to show/hide)

With a stabb or a arrow ? got 8 on both PS and PD  :lol: But my accuracy is bad, it's the price to really deal damages tho.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Vermilion on October 21, 2013, 04:44:00 pm
First - No, I think this is a stupid idea.

Second - In a more constructive, feedback, discussion sort of way, I have a couple questions.

1. Why limit alts not the percentage of each class which can join the server?
2. So if you're an archer you can't have a crossbow alt and vise versa? Even more limitations if you include throwing.
3. What about hybrids and ranged cav?
4. How do you suggest this would be done? Mains no longer exist and we now have "current hero" which can be swapped every 7 days. You want the devs to delete peoples ranged characters if they switch hero?
5. Why just limit ranged? Why should a 2h hero be allowed cav alts? ETC. (I know you see it as a lot of range recently, but maybe some ranged are getting pissed of with the amount of shielders or cav on at certain times).
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Gurnisson on October 21, 2013, 04:44:44 pm
Arrow, but you deal insane amount of damage with your 1h as well :(

That's why I try to slash you in the back every time you're not paying attention or are guarded by solid infantry :twisted:
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 04:53:32 pm
At least, you make me passing for good Gurnisson, I'm only a my old friend with a bow. Just did change my build to become a str whore too  :wink:

I'm a noob if you compare me with Robinhood or Bagge. They are just snipers.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2013, 05:12:32 pm
I like how some people here talk like cav is a functional counter to ranged
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 05:17:41 pm
Cavs like Mazari can kill dozens of archers ... Also, I must say you that I fear a lot lancers as archer, will always remember the last strat battle I participed in NA, Huseby was there to rape me aswell...
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 21, 2013, 05:42:39 pm
Nothing is in a vacuum, what works in one round versus one enemy team may not work against another.  Everything we're saying is anecdotal and lot of is hyperbole.

Typically speaking, other archers/xbows will counter archers. 
Cavalry (lancers with shields, or 1h/2h) will counter archers.
Horse Ranged will counter ground ranged.
Throwers can counter ranged.
Melee in groups can counter ranged (especially if they have some ranged or cav support).


Using teamwork and tactics can counter any class in the game with pretty much any other class in the game.

I'm tired of the game being balanced for rambo tryhards who have no desire to use a little logic, teamwork, or adaptation to the conditions on the battlefield.  Let these fuckers whine and bitch and complain.  Let them continue bashing their heads into the wall and crying that the dev's won't remove the wall instead of them going around, or over, or under the wall (or asking a friend for a boost over the wall, or for a catapult to destroy the wall).
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Gurnisson on October 21, 2013, 05:43:31 pm
I like how some people here talk like cav is a functional counter to ranged

They prey on each other. Cav counters ranged, ranged counters cav.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Templar_Steevee on October 21, 2013, 05:55:27 pm

Silly fool...
can you give me your nick ingame and tell me what time you play?
I would like to give you more reasons for whining about archers  :twisted:
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 05:57:12 pm
he got the same nickname
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Templar_Steevee on October 21, 2013, 06:01:10 pm
blacklisted  :twisted:
But i also need to know when se is playing and what are nicknames of his alts.

Hunting whiners is always funny :D
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 21, 2013, 08:28:42 pm
can you give me your nick ingame and tell me what time you play?
I would like to give you more reasons for whining about archers  :twisted:

Got a shielder. if you want to challange my tower shield you are more than welcome.

However I have no specific time of playing so I cant help you with that.

P.S. Sooo scared of your puny bow...
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Penitent on October 21, 2013, 08:56:45 pm

I'm tired of the game being balanced for rambo tryhards who have no desire to use a little logic, teamwork, or adaptation to the conditions on the battlefield. 
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Real_Dece_Guy on October 21, 2013, 09:41:38 pm
Also, I'd like to point out that all Rambo tryhards have to do is throw on some more armour and crutch harder on Ironflesh.  I can walk up to a group of 3 archers without taking a single sidestep, and if they're not smart enough to run away and try shotgunning me, I'll kill most or all of them. 

One day I was fighting a horse archer, a crossbowman, and a(n underpowered) thrower, and took something like 20 shots without dropping, then killed them as they got sloppy.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Templar_Steevee on October 21, 2013, 10:00:29 pm
Also, I'd like to point out that all Rambo tryhards have to do is throw on some more armour and crutch harder on Ironflesh.  I can walk up to a group of 3 archers without taking a single sidestep, and if they're not smart enough to run away and try shotgunning me, I'll kill most or all of them. 

One day I was fighting a horse archer, a crossbowman, and a(n underpowered) thrower, and took something like 20 shots without dropping, then killed them as they got sloppy.
you got a nice dream :)

Got a shielder. if you want to challange my tower shield you are more than welcome.

However I have no specific time of playing so I cant help you with that.

P.S. Sooo scared of your puny bow...

Better shield up every time when you will be in oposite team and don't GTX when you will get an arrow in your body. It's funny when someone is trying to kill me :)
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2013, 10:11:26 pm
Nothing is in a vacuum, what works in one round versus one enemy team may not work against another.  Everything we're saying is anecdotal and lot of is hyperbole.

Typically speaking, other archers/xbows will counter archers. 

That's 100% correct and 100% a terrible thing.

Cavalry (lancers with shields, or 1h/2h) will counter archers.

No. Unless in extremely specific conditions, cav simply doesn't counter ranged, it's ranged countering cav.

Horse Ranged will counter ground ranged.

Under the same specific conditions. And this is also a terrible thing as even fewer things counter horse ranged.

Throwers can counter ranged.

...marginally better than melee can

Melee in groups can counter ranged (especially if they have some ranged or cav support).

"Melee in groups" is a politically correct way of saying "melee with double the numbers". Archers in groups counter any assortment of melee in groups.

Using teamwork and tactics can counter any class in the game with pretty much any other class in the game.

Using teamwork and tactics can negate those counters when you can just camp a cliffside and rain death while being virtually immune to everything.

I'm tired of the game being balanced for rambo tryhards who have no desire to use a little logic, teamwork, or adaptation to the conditions on the battlefield.

That's just you keeping up this myth. A little logic, teamwork and adaptation is simply not enough to counter ranged even half as much as the same amount of logic, teamwork and adaptation can counter melee classes.

Let these fuckers whine and bitch and complain.  Let them continue bashing their heads into the wall and crying that the dev's won't remove the wall instead of them going around, or over, or under the wall (or asking a friend for a boost over the wall, or for a catapult to destroy the wall).

The only way to go over the wall is to join them.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Penitent on October 21, 2013, 10:17:11 pm
I guess people are complaining about ranged again still.

Here's a guide I made back in Feb of 2012.  It's in the beginners help and guides section, so any of you noobs beginners that need help with dealing with ranged should read it.

[GUIDE] How to Defend against Archers/Xbows and not Become a Statistic
http://forum.melee.org/guides/%28guide%29-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/msg378727/#msg378727
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2013, 11:01:29 pm
I guess people are complaining about ranged again still.

Here's a guide I made back in Feb of 2012.  It's in the beginners help and guides section, so any of you noobs beginners that need help with dealing with ranged should read it.

[GUIDE] How to Defend against Archers/Xbows and not Become a Statistic
http://forum.melee.org/guides/%28guide%29-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/msg378727/#msg378727

I read it years ago, I even had a private course with Xenox about dodging. To the advanced player, all these things together don't help even a tenth as much as "learn to block" helps against melee. Noobs will get killed in melee and ranged equally because they suck. The problem emerges because it is possible to learn extremely effective means of defense against melee, but not against ranged.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Penitent on October 21, 2013, 11:19:30 pm
I read it years ago, I even had a private course with Xenox about dodging. To the advanced player, all these things together don't help even a tenth as much as "learn to block" helps against melee. Noobs will get killed in melee and ranged equally because they suck. The problem emerges because it is possible to learn extremely effective means of defense against melee, but not against ranged.

Welp, I hardly ever get killed by ranged.

I can tell you with a serious face, in all honestly, offering myself as a living example:
"Get a shield" is just as useful for thwarting ranged as "learn to block" helps with melee.  :)

Edit:  It may be more accurate to say "learn to shield" since you DO have to use the shield with some intelligence and not just "have" it.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Kafein on October 22, 2013, 09:57:49 am
Welp, I hardly ever get killed by ranged.

Maybe you just get killed by melee before. Maybe you are simply lucky and don't get shot from across the map and die in the middle of nowhere like stricken by lightning with enemies nowhere to be seen. Maybe you apply the retarded tips a majority of active archer lobbyists keep on regurgitating on these forums (you know, things like "hide behind imaginary cover for the entire round so instead of me having to kill you you play dead from the get go") and become a weight for you team just for the sake of being actually safe from ranged. I don't get killed that much by ranged personally either but what the hell at least when I get killed by melee in most cases I made a mistake somewhere. Ranged will get you no matter how you play, as there's no wrong and certainly no right way to go around it.

I can tell you with a serious face, in all honestly, offering myself as a living example:
"Get a shield" is just as useful for thwarting ranged as "learn to block" helps with melee.  :)

No it isn't. A shield won't protect you from shots in your back or while you fight in melee. A shield forbids you to dodge and cripples your movement speed. Additionally, blocking in melee stuns the attacker allowing you to retaliate. A shield won't even discourage ranged from shooting you since they very well know how ridiculously tighter than the models those things are (I'm speaking about the good looking rectangle shields, not the round ones).

Edit:  It may be more accurate to say "learn to shield" since you DO have to use the shield with some intelligence and not just "have" it.

Ho yeah of course, in case of emergency, apply "l2p nub !!!11" argument. I've been playing shielder for 3 years but I somehow don't know how to use it.
Title: Re: A suggestion to lower the amount of ranged without nerfing anything
Post by: Penitent on October 22, 2013, 05:03:20 pm
Maybe you just get killed by melee before. Maybe you are simply lucky and don't get shot from across the map and die in the middle of nowhere like stricken by lightning with enemies nowhere to be seen. Maybe you apply the retarded tips a majority of active archer lobbyists keep on regurgitating on these forums (you know, things like "hide behind imaginary cover for the entire round so instead of me having to kill you you play dead from the get go") and become a weight for you team just for the sake of being actually safe from ranged. I don't get killed that much by ranged personally either but what the hell at least when I get killed by melee in most cases I made a mistake somewhere. Ranged will get you no matter how you play, as there's no wrong and certainly no right way to go around it.

No it isn't. A shield won't protect you from shots in your back or while you fight in melee. A shield forbids you to dodge and cripples your movement speed. Additionally, blocking in melee stuns the attacker allowing you to retaliate. A shield won't even discourage ranged from shooting you since they very well know how ridiculously tighter than the models those things are (I'm speaking about the good looking rectangle shields, not the round ones).

Ho yeah of course, in case of emergency, apply "l2p nub !!!11" argument. I've been playing shielder for 3 years but I somehow don't know how to use it.

Ok, here is the problem.  I am trying to help you, not argue against your points.  I'm not just incredibly lucky and I don't weigh my team down (not most maps anyways :) ).  I'm not an archery lobbyist -- I'm a shielder for 12 gens.  I know a thing or two about this.  I eat archers for lunch.

I admit my guide is a bit bare-bones, but if you don't want help with surviving ranged, that's up to you.  I can tell you the solution is not to nerf them though.  That is for sure. 

Shields absolutely discourage ranged.  Have you played with a shield for any length of time?  Like more than one gen?  I see it every day, literally...the archer is aiming at me, sees my shield up, and turns the other way to shoot at someone else.  Either that, or he wastes an arrow on my forcefield.  Win-win for me.  It's a loss for the teamie who gets shot because he didn't want to wait for the shielder to go first.

Yes, I get shot sometimes.  It's especially tough when there are two or more archers in different areas so you get stuck in cross-fire (even then you can sometimes "time" them and block all arrows -- super fun!).  A shield is not god-mode, but it increases you chances of survival against ranged by leaps and bounds.  Even practice shields will ward away arrows while archers pick a softer target instead of wasting ammo.

Also, you don't just hide behind cover at the beginning of a round and hope the archers go away.  That tactic is useful if it's like 2 of you vs 3 archers at the end of the round.  Take cover and try to make them waste whatever ammo they have left.  OR if the enemy team is advancing with heavy archer cover, don't just run out into the field to meet them.  Also, if there is no cover, make your own.  If you aren't using all at least 3/4 slots you are hindering your team.

In the end, your strong disagreement and unwillingness to take advice from an old shield vet just shows the shortcomings of my guide.  I'll revise it and fill in some details there for you and everyone.