cRPG

Other Games => ... and all the other things floating around out there => Topic started by: Overdriven on September 22, 2013, 12:40:00 pm

Title: Universe Expanding
Post by: Overdriven on September 22, 2013, 12:40:00 pm
http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/

Could be interesting.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 22, 2013, 03:27:26 pm
Hello, Steambox.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 22, 2013, 05:25:04 pm
Three dots with stuff in it : Half Life 3 announced
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Christo on September 22, 2013, 05:34:27 pm
Big Picture mode already annoys me because I often click on it instead of friendslist
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Polobow on September 23, 2013, 05:31:03 pm
They'll probally get up to 2 announcements, forgetting the third dot all together.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 23, 2013, 05:57:49 pm
One more hour.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 23, 2013, 07:23:06 pm
Annnnnd, the first clue is out - SteamOS

Oh, those features sound... nice :o
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on September 23, 2013, 08:24:49 pm
Not really sure what to think of it. Doesn't really make me excited or disappointed.

I fail to see any reason for me to use it, unless they do a dick move like announcing Half Life 3 for SteamOS.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 23, 2013, 08:30:10 pm
I don't think i myself am going to use any of that in the foreseeable future, but i'm more excited for what this could mean for the gaming industry in general - more PC oriented games, better support for those and overall less of a barrier between consoles and PC gaming - all of which would be good for me.
And, when they inevitably reveal Steambox (worst kept secret, ever?), that, in combination with SteamOS, sounds like the sort of console i can see myself actually getting someday.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on September 23, 2013, 11:44:34 pm
I'm not sure they are going to release a steam box themselves. It looks more as if they'd be providing the OS and services and let other people provide the hardware. You know, open, and all. This could also be a great push for Linux in general, because if it takes off, hardware vendors will finally be encouraged to write good Linux drivers.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 23, 2013, 11:47:12 pm
Regarding Linux drivers, anyone still remembers, when Valve were porting their games to Linux not that long ago and working to optimize them and get proper driver support? Suddenly seems to be in context :)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on September 23, 2013, 11:52:43 pm
Developing their own drivers in secrecy? I'm sure they'll open source them later, but that's not a very good start to their "everything open" policy.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 24, 2013, 12:00:39 am
IIRC, not their own drivers, but rather, working with manufacturers to improve their drivers? I might be mistaken, don't remember exactly.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 24, 2013, 12:09:51 pm
The way I see it, this might be an attempt at making an OS that could run on a flashed console.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Polobow on September 24, 2013, 12:31:38 pm
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/6643/tq7.gif
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on September 24, 2013, 01:00:32 pm
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/6643/tq7.gif

tested this in photoshop and got this

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Christo on September 24, 2013, 02:38:44 pm
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/6643/tq7.gif

O_o
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Casimir on September 24, 2013, 03:49:25 pm
Are there really that many people that want to use steam on their tvs?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on September 24, 2013, 04:15:31 pm
lord gaben is always right, pras lord gaben

GabeOS! GabeOS! GabeOS!
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 25, 2013, 07:35:03 pm
http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

h'okay.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on September 25, 2013, 08:17:18 pm
See, they don't make an own box (well, they did, but just for testing). I think they are on the right track.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 25, 2013, 10:21:15 pm
Quote
Am I going to be using a mouse and a keyboard in the living-room?
If you want. But Steam and SteamOS work well with gamepads, too. Stay tuned, though - we have some more to say very soon on the topic of input.
Let the speculation commence!
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: chadz on September 26, 2013, 12:52:04 pm
Friday announcement will be the Source 2 Engine that runs without DirectX.
Plus a game running on it, the obvious guess is Half life 3.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on September 26, 2013, 12:55:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Polobow on September 26, 2013, 02:11:53 pm
I think after the third announcement, a timer will appear under/above the glowing orb, a fourth announcement.

Friday announcement will be the Source 2 Engine that runs without DirectX.
Plus a game running on it, the obvious guess is Half life 3.

Perhaps that'll be the fourth, since the third is obviously going to be something based around input (controller?)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: chadz on September 26, 2013, 02:25:17 pm
I assume by that they mean that Source 2 will be running on Windows Linux and Mac, but also the next gen consoles, so the input device is up to the game.


...since the third is obviously going to be something based around input (controller?)
Edit: you really think the third and biggest announcement is what input devices it will allow? :D

"Today, we reveal: You can plugin a mouse, a keyboard, a gamecontroller, and a joystick! Thanks for your attention, that was all. "
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Thovex on September 26, 2013, 03:04:31 pm
Half Life 3 was delayed till year 3000 due to Gabe is fat jokes, must be Left 4 Dead 3 or Portal 3
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2013, 03:05:49 pm
I'd be fine with a portal game instead too.

Don't kill me pls
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Thovex on September 26, 2013, 03:08:36 pm
I'd be fine with a portal game instead too.

Don't kill me pls

pls no
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2013, 03:09:08 pm
;__;
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on September 26, 2013, 03:16:52 pm
Has any Valve game reached the number 3 tho?

Dota 2
Half life 2
Team Fortress 2
Left 4 Dead 2

number 3 for Valve

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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 26, 2013, 05:35:28 pm
Well, you could theoretically call CS:GO a Counter-Strike 3
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Thovex on September 26, 2013, 05:39:30 pm
Atleast their not doing the same thing as Activision, Call of Gooby: Modern Warfare 8 (CoD 24)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 05:54:41 pm
Why is Half-Life such a big thing for people, anyway? My only experience of it is ten minutes of HL2 and didn't seem that revolutionary.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: chadz on September 26, 2013, 05:58:56 pm
Halflife 2 was a good quality shooter, but not groundbreaking.

Halflife 1 was revolutionary though. First of it's kind in so many ways.

I'm not overly hyped for a new halflife sequel to be honest, but I'm very interested in this recent development and it's implications on indies and pc gaming in general as a newborn game developer :)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Nessaj on September 26, 2013, 06:05:16 pm
I wonder if the new Source engine, or rather 'updated' Source engine is simply the work Respawn Entertainment has done on it for Titanfall. Which would be great, since Respawn's version of the Source engine is actually pretty amazing, namely for FPS, which is where the regular and current Source engine falls flat on its head, especially with the networking code.

Quote from: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127156-Titanfall-Developer-Framerate-Is-King
though the game itself is built on somewhat old-school technology. Respawn Entertainment's Drew McCoy recently explained how Titanfall makes the most of the nine year old Source Engine, and why he prioritizes performance over cutting-edge effects.

The Source Engine may be the foundation that Titanfall is built upon, but Respawn's engineers have made some liberal changes to the way it works. According to McCoy the overhaul was essential to make the engine fit with a game like Titanfall, which is incredibly different from Valve's titles, computationally speaking. "It's actually a pretty slow engine for showing stuff on screen," he explains. "What we have in a level now would run in single digits on what it was before - if you could even get it to load at all. It's been a huge engineering task." The advantage, of course, is that Source comes with nearly a decade of refined tools and polish.

Don't let the single digits comment scare you, though - Respawn is investing the power of next-gen processing in relatively traditional graphical effects. The performance boost should be clear: no promises of 60 frames-per-second have been made just yet, but McCoy seems hopeful. "We'll see how performance goes," he says. "Framerate is king."

If the new Source engine does entail these huge and serious changes from Respawn then I'm certainly hyped for any title Valve might release, I just hope they didn't try and do these changes on their own, or that they thought their own developers would make better networking code than Respawn's etc.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: chadz on September 27, 2013, 07:04:51 pm
hm... well

I was not only wrong, I was 180° wrong. Shame on me.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Nessaj on September 27, 2013, 07:33:07 pm
hm... well

I was not only wrong, I was 180° wrong. Shame on me.

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http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/ (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Thovex on September 27, 2013, 07:35:32 pm
1 ugly fucker I must say.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on September 27, 2013, 08:48:38 pm
I fucking knew it. Even the O+O looked like a controller.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Casimir on September 27, 2013, 08:53:28 pm
That looks like the worst possible controller.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leesin on September 27, 2013, 09:17:48 pm
Why is Half-Life such a big thing for people, anyway? My only experience of it is ten minutes of HL2 and didn't seem that revolutionary.

Both games were amazing for their time ( i.e when they were released ), both well made, very fun and addictive games that set standards for the genre.

Not to mention Half-Life 1 gave life to awesome mods, most notably like Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat and Team Fortress which ended up as their own retail games, or how about Natural Selection which was a HL1 mod too. Fantastic games that breathed life into the FPS genre and IMO really carried the FPS Multiplayer scene for years. Sadly for me I just can't play most FPS's anymore, they don't bring much more to the table other than "bettr gfx m8"
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 28, 2013, 02:38:03 am
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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Butan on September 28, 2013, 03:01:10 am
I wonder how the fingers will be able to leave/drag the trackpads to push X/Y/B/A; but looks interesting if anything. A good controller can be the world to a gamer.


EDIT : Seems like those buttons will be near useless for gameplay and the trackpads + triggers behind would be enough for most actions : an interesting mix of N64 triggers + PS3 dual joysticks.


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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on September 28, 2013, 04:09:43 am
Those trackpads could work better than analog sticks, if they have enough resolution.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2013, 02:28:31 pm
Those trackpads could work better than a mo...


no.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 30, 2013, 04:36:24 pm
Or could they? (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/28/steam-controller-dev-reactions/)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Torben on September 30, 2013, 04:52:16 pm
read some great shit about this.  the dude that made windows a gaming plattform (by getting Doom to work for win)  is in charge of it iirc,  and he is doing it again:
this might actually make linux an all out contender for the  OS market by making games more common with it.

concerning the box,  dunno,  as it will be twice the price of standard consoles...
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2013, 04:54:47 pm
Or could they? (http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/28/steam-controller-dev-reactions/)

They never say it's better than a mouse, because it obviously isn't. Maybe I'm a freak doing a 360 over 3cm, but I want my controls to be that sensitive and accurate at the same time.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 30, 2013, 04:56:26 pm
Consider that they were using primitive prototypes in still somewhat early stages of development and that they had no previous experience with such a controller, versus thousands upon thousands of hours with either mouse+keyboard or console controllers. Do the math.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Tibe on September 30, 2013, 06:16:26 pm
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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2013, 06:19:06 pm
Consider that they were using primitive prototypes in still somewhat early stages of development and that they had no previous experience with such a controller, versus thousands upon thousands of hours with either mouse+keyboard or console controllers. Do the math.

So what ? I've used laptop touchpads for years and they still are crap. Even the best ones have accuracy problems (not for technical reasons but because you can only do so much with fingers) and, perhaps more importantly, lack the smoothness of a proper mouse with mousepad setting as soon as your hands get even a little bit sweaty.

I've used a trackball mouse for 4 years, I even used it for playing Warband and it worked. But the main advantage of it was not accuracy, it was the ease of not having to move your arm ever plus limitless scrolling with very little downtime when you had to keep moving the pointer in one direction (the whole grabbing the mouse and putting it back somewhere else business takes more time than moving your thumb). The main problem was maintenance. Every now and then (sometimes twice a day) I had to clean the inside because the ball would stop rolling properly. And lack of accuracy second.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Tibe on September 30, 2013, 06:27:08 pm
I for one think the controller looks alright. Not having analogsticks however....I dunt get why this? The mouse and keyboard are like the most perfect tools for playing games that arent sports and racing, why couldnt they have figured something out similar to this. Kafein is right. Touchpads just suck. You can use it however you like and long, but it will suck forever. Some things just dont bloody work.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on September 30, 2013, 06:38:30 pm
So what ? I've used laptop touchpads for years and they still are crap. Even the best ones have accuracy problems (not for technical reasons but because you can only do so much with fingers) and, perhaps more importantly, lack the smoothness of a proper mouse with mousepad setting as soon as your hands get even a little bit sweaty.

I've used a trackball mouse for 4 years, I even used it for playing Warband and it worked. But the main advantage of it was not accuracy, it was the ease of not having to move your arm ever plus limitless scrolling with very little downtime when you had to keep moving the pointer in one direction (the whole grabbing the mouse and putting it back somewhere else business takes more time than moving your thumb). The main problem was maintenance. Every now and then (sometimes twice a day) I had to clean the inside because the ball would stop rolling properly. And lack of accuracy second.
Okay? What do laptop touchpads got to do with this? This is something completely different. If you were to read those dev impressions, they even explicitly state that it's nothing like any touchpad they've ever used.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on September 30, 2013, 08:03:12 pm
Not having analogsticks however....I dunt get why this?

Because analog sticks suck compared to these touchpads?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 01, 2013, 05:57:26 am
Because analog sticks suck.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Butan on October 01, 2013, 02:04:58 pm
I welcome any technological advance in controllers. As long as it is objectively superior.

Then there is the fact that those born and raised with NES/PS1 controls have some difficulties to adapt, like me. I'm sure the younglings that will be born and raised with trackpads/motion control will laugh at us and headshot us with precision in the near future  :lol:
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: rufio on October 01, 2013, 02:24:57 pm
I welcome any technological advance in controllers. As long as it is objectively superior.

Then there is the fact that those born and raised with NES/PS1 controls have some difficulties to adapt, like me. I'm sure the younglings that will be born and raised with trackpads/motion control will laugh at us and headshot us with precision in the near future  :lol:

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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 01, 2013, 05:51:58 pm
Everyone relevant today was born with M&K tho
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 02, 2013, 01:41:08 am
Those trackpads could work better than a mo...


no.

They don't have to though, they just need to make FPS's tolerable on the console. I bought The Last of Us for the PS3 because I thought it was mainly going to be a storytelling game like The Walking Dead. Turns out its a shooter. Console controllers are so intolerable for a shooter that I turned it off about an hour into the game because it was like trying to use a pencil with flippers.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on October 02, 2013, 08:52:55 am
Yeah, i guess the idea is to make a viable controller for gaming in the livingroom, for playing FPS and RTS games and other previously PC-exclusive titles. If i had to sacrifice a little precision to gain the comforts of gaming, whilst laying in a couch or something... i'd take it :)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on October 02, 2013, 09:53:40 am
If i had to sacrifice a little precision to gain the comforts of gaming, whilst laying in a couch or something... i'd take it :)

casual filth!!!
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2013, 09:55:54 am
ptx shamely casul

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Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: [ptx] on October 02, 2013, 10:09:53 am
:(
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Nessaj on October 05, 2013, 11:06:45 am
Quote from: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse#announcements/detail/2145128928746175450
Steam Machines - Prototype Details
Hello from the Steam hardware bunker.

Thanks for joining the Steam Universe community group. As we get closer to shipping the prototype Steam Machines and controllers we talked about last week, we're going to be posting info here about what we're up to, and give you some insight into the work we’ve done to get to this point.

As we talked about last week, the Steam Machines available for sale next year will be made by a variety of companies. Some of those companies will be capable of meeting the demands of lots of Steam users very quickly, some will be more specialized and lower volume. The hardware specs of each of those machines will differ, in many cases substantially, from our prototype.

Valve didn't set out to create our own prototype hardware just for the sake of going it alone - we wanted to accomplish some specific design goals that in the past others weren't yet tackling. One of them was to combine high-end power with a living-room-friendly form factor. Another was to help us test living-room scenarios on a box that's as open as possible.

So for our own first prototype Steam Machine ( the one we're shipping to 300 Steam users ), we've chosen to build something special. The prototype machine is a high-end, high-performance box, built out of off-the-shelf PC parts. It is also fully upgradable, allowing any user to swap out the GPU, hard drive, CPU, even the motherboard if you really want to. Apart from the custom enclosure, anyone can go and build exactly the same machine by shopping for components and assembling it themselves. And we expect that at least a few people will do just that. (We'll also share the source CAD files for our enclosure, in case people want to replicate it as well.)

And to be clear, this design is not meant to serve the needs of all of the tens of millions of Steam users. It may, however, be the kind of machine that a significant percentage of Steam users would actually want to purchase - those who want plenty of performance in a high-end living room package. Many others would opt for machines that have been more carefully designed to cost less, or to be tiny, or super quiet, and there will be Steam Machines that fit those descriptions.

Here are the specifications for Valve's 300 prototypes.

The 300 prototype units will ship with the following components:
GPU: some units with NVidia Titan, some GTX780, some GTX760, and some GTX660
CPU:   some boxes with Intel i7-4770, some i5-4570, and some i3
RAM: 16GB DDR3-1600 (CPU), 3GB GDDR5 (GPU)
Storage: 1TB/8GB Hybrid SSHD
Power Supply: Internal 450w 80Plus Gold
Dimensions: approx. 12 x 12.4 x 2.9 in high


As a hardware platform, the Steam ecosystem will change over time, so any upgrades will be at each user's discretion. In the future we'll talk about how Steam will help customers understand the differences between machines, hardware strengths and weaknesses, and upgrade decisions.

We aren't quite ready to post a picture of our prototype - just because they're not finished enough. Before they ship we'll let you know what the prototype looks like. And we expect people to redesign the machine, too. Both from a technical perspective, deciding on different components, and from an industrial design perspective, changing the enclosure in interesting ways.

So high-powered SteamOS living room machines are nice, and fun to play with, and will make many Steam customers happy. But there are a lot of other Steam customers who already have perfectly great gaming hardware at home in the form of a powerful PC. The prototype we're talking about here is not meant to replace that. Many of those users would like to have a way to bridge the gap into the living room without giving up their existing hardware and without spending lots of money. We think that's a great goal, and we're working on ways to use our in-home streaming technology to accomplish it - we'll talk more about that in the future.

Stay tuned for some closer looks at the Steam Controller.

High-end specs, wonder how they'll handle the cooling/noise etc as well.

Overall I like the initiative though, anything to "kill" or take on consoles :wink:
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 05, 2013, 12:45:00 pm
Could be water cooling.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Butan on October 05, 2013, 01:35:49 pm
Are those specs inferior or superior to the upcoming playstation4/xbox1 ?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 05, 2013, 03:18:07 pm
Are those specs inferior or superior to the upcoming playstation4/xbox1 ?

From what I can tell they are superior.

If this kind of hardware becomes available at console price it will be mayhem in the streets though.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 05, 2013, 04:36:01 pm
If this kind of hardware becomes available at console price it will be mayhem in the streets though.

Yes, they will definitely sell 1000+€ hardware for 500€.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on October 05, 2013, 04:54:36 pm
Are those specs inferior or superior to the upcoming playstation4/xbox1 ?

Way superior. Especially if you look at the best stuff on that list. But this must be crazy expensive. An Nvidia Titan costs 1000 dollars. And that's just the graphic card.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 05, 2013, 07:31:48 pm
Yes, they will definitely sell 1000+€ hardware for 500€.

But if Steam markets Steam boxes at 1000 bucks, will they sell any ?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 05, 2013, 07:37:39 pm
Yes, they will definitely sell 1000+€ hardware for 500€.

It's called subsidizing and economy of scale, something Amazon has down to an art form. Given Valve's statement however, they will likely have a range of specifications for various dollar amounts with the low end being in the current console area. An i3 processor, GTX 660, and 16GB RAM can easily come in at ~$500.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 05, 2013, 07:39:05 pm
But if Steam markets Steam boxes at 1000 bucks, will they sell any ?

Yes, they will. There are millions of spoiled teenagers that will force their parents to buy one. Just to be different from their PS or XBox friends.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 05, 2013, 07:42:20 pm
This so called SteamMachine prototype is nothing more than your regular PC. They don't have anything solid at this phase but that's fine because Sony didn't have console ready 7 months ago. They said games were running on PS4 on E3 but I doubt it. SteamMachines are at least 6 months far from launch. When they launch I think we'll see even AMD APU based SteamMachines, something that's not possible atm thanks to non existent driver support under Linux.

AMD is experimenting with OpenGL 4.4 atm. They are trying to achieve something performance close to what can be done with low level API (Mantle). They are certain extensions introduced in latest version of OpenGL API which could help them. If you want to know more about this subject follow tweets of AMD's OpenGL guy, Graham Sellers (https://twitter.com/grahamsellers).

Streaming tech they are using is most likely they same nVidia used on Shield. That means 99 USD SteamMachines will most likely be based on nVidia tech. This (http://youtu.be/sNh0ZAwsIkI) is a decent Shield overview, and it shows how good streaming tech is. Latency is quite low :)

Edit: SteamMachines need to be affordable to succeed. I'm sure GabeN knows this, he worked for Microsoft when they did the exact same thing with PC and Windows.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 05, 2013, 07:43:55 pm
It's called subsidizing and economy of scale, something Amazon has down to an art form. Given Valve's statement however, they will likely have a range of specifications for various dollar amounts with the low end being in the current console area. An i3 processor, GTX 660, and 16GB RAM can easily come in at ~$500.

No, it's called fantasy. The configuration you mention can be sold for ~$500 because that's what it's worth.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 05, 2013, 07:53:18 pm
Can't remember where I've read it, but they mentioned 99 USD SteamMachines that will be used for streaming, 299 USD SteamMachines which should be the sweet spot and more expensive SteamMachines where price doesn't matter that much, focus will be on performance.

299 USD SteamMachines should be able to play most Steam games like they are meant to be played. I expect 720p 60fps for certain games and 1080 30/60fps for most games just like PS4.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Butan on October 05, 2013, 08:50:48 pm
Maybe Steam will do like Microsoft with the Xbox at its beginning, and accept deficit to install themselves in the console market.

Not sure if Steam has the same capacity to subsidize as Microsoft even though they are the n°1 in virtual video games store.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Casimir on October 05, 2013, 09:52:06 pm
In september 2012 Valves equity was estimated at $2.5 billion, who knows where that could be now. Without a doubt they have the capital to sell a machine at a loss if it means breaking into the largest games market (the console platform).
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 05, 2013, 10:13:17 pm
They won't sell SteamMachines themselves. It's the same model like Android, they provide software and support while OEMs provide hardware. Valve will work with their partners on optimization of upcoming games (by using stripped down OpenGL API or proprietary solutions which will maintains AMD and nVidia). It's possible to sell PC capable running next gen console games for 300 USD, but with low margins. But I believe initial price for mid tier SteamMachines will be higher, around 500 USD.

Good thing about this concept is that it has all advantages consoles have over PC, but none of the downsides. SteamMachines will be upgradeable, you'll be able to buy a new model with faster hardware every couple of years (or even every year). It will be mod friendly because Steam Workshop is essential part of SteamOS. We'll be able to play older games on it (backwards compatibility). And the best of it, developers will know the size of market and every hardware combination gamers use to play games. That's the biggest problem with PC market, it's huge but no one knows its boundaries and there's a ton of different hardware combinations devs must take into account. SteamMachines and SteamOS will fix that issue.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 05, 2013, 10:44:04 pm
Yes, they will definitely sell 1000+€ hardware for 500€.

No, it's called fantasy. The configuration you mention can be sold for ~$500 because that's what it's worth.

Make up your mind. Either they will have steam boxes priced in the console range or they won't. As for the more expensive models being fantasy for cheaper than you can buy the parts on the street yourself? Study up on business models. Selling consoles for less than they cost to manufacture has been standard operating procedure for the console market for decades. Again, look up subsidizing and economy of scale.

http://www.geek.com/games/sony-will-sell-every-ps4-at-a-loss-but-easily-recoup-it-in-games-ps-plus-sales-1571335/ (http://www.geek.com/games/sony-will-sell-every-ps4-at-a-loss-but-easily-recoup-it-in-games-ps-plus-sales-1571335/)
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 05, 2013, 10:53:45 pm
You misunderstood the first post. We were talking about the high end boxes being available at console price (hence Kafein's post about "mayhem in the streets").
Also, being available for cheaper than you can buy the parts for is possible, being $600 cheaper is pure fantasy.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 05, 2013, 11:46:31 pm
If this thing takes off, I think that hardware manufacturers will have to settle for lower prices. They are many reasons why I think like that. First of all, Valve could create bigger market for PC gaming. Currently it's 50 million for Steam and few millions for other digital distribution systems (maybe Origin has more because of Battlefield popularity). Consoles at the moment are sitting at 150 million for current gen big boys, X360 and PS3 and more than 100 million for Wii. That's 250 million players but it's most likely a lot less because many people own and play on more than one console. On top of that, there's China which recently lifted embargo on game consoles. Chinese players were able to buy them in stores but console commercials were forbidden. That's a HUGE emerging market for all players in gaming business.

Gaming is growing and Valve wants to be the leader. That's the main reason why they are doing all of this. I'm just thankful that they are taking right approach to console gaming with SteamOS and Steam Machines. It's open, upgradeable and will create new ecosystem where seasoned game developers will work alongside modders, who will be able to sell their creations without legal issues (because Valve will organize the whole thing for them and take the their cut for it). That's not something some people like because it will mean that mods won't be free like they used to be in most cases but it is much better for gaming community as a whole than what Sony, Microsoft and especially asshole companies like EA are trying to achieve.

For example, EA is allowing mods in Sim City but with so many restrictions it's not even worth to mod that game at all. On the other hand, Star Citizen is a game where RSI is selling ships for big money but there is already handful of mods created by community members which will be free at first and those mods are at the same level as those expensive ships RSI is selling. That's the power of modding and the very definition of PC gaming.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 06, 2013, 12:12:57 am
You misunderstood the first post. We were talking about the high end boxes being available at console price (hence Kafein's post about "mayhem in the streets").
Also, being available for cheaper than you can buy the parts for is possible, being $600 cheaper is pure fantasy.

I get what youre saying, people always look at the big number first and ignore the range, but looks at the specs. Even the low end GTX 660 is going to be 10-15% faster than the stock PS4 GPU and can be upgraded, but it doesn't end there. They could easily put in the GTX 760 for the same price for a 30-40% boost in graphics processing and we haven't even left the $500 dollar range yet. 16GB RAM is double the 8GB available in the PS4. The i3 processor is about 15% faster than the AMD processor in the PS4 and that is the i3 2100, the low end of the i3.

So right out of the gate, the very low end Steambox, which you agree can easily get below the $500 mark and without subsidizing, is going to beat the PS4 by 10-15% in performance. A small amount of subsidizing, say the same amount Sony is going to subsidize their machine, and you get specs where you can expect to see a 30-40% boost in performance over the PS4, which is not insignificant and you are still at the console price range. Sure, you won't be getting a Titan in your Steambox for that price, but for a very similar price, you will be able to get far superior specifications in your rig.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 06, 2013, 01:12:49 am
but for a very similar price, you will be able to get far superior specifications in your rig.

Yes, but that's not surprising or even new; PC users have had superior hardware than consoles for the same price for many years.
I don't get why the big fuss over this thing. It doesn't have the main advantage of consoles (knowing that everything works out of the box because there's just 1 hardware spec) and it has no advantages over a PC. So, why?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 06, 2013, 03:38:53 am
Yes, but that's not surprising or even new; PC users have had superior hardware than consoles for the same price for many years.
I don't get why the big fuss over this thing. It doesn't have the main advantage of consoles (knowing that everything works out of the box because there's just 1 hardware spec) and it has no advantages over a PC. So, why?

Maybe not just 1, but 3^4 is ALOT better than the ~10^1000. Also, a keyboard/mouse just isn't couch friendly, at all. Not to mention, have you seen what Microsoft has been doing with their OS? I personally spend a lot of money on my PC, but primarily for gaming. I could get by with far less for other things I do on it. If I can get a similar gaming experience for less and with more reliable software due to the limited specs (I just need the best, upgradeable, not the option to buy every single item out there) that works 90% as well as a mouse/keyboard without the mouse/keyboard bulk and table/desk requirement, that lets me use my 70 inch TV from my couch instead of the 27 inch monitor I use at my desk, then I'll be making the switch from PC gaming to Steambox console. Now if only they add decent voice-to-text, it will be gold. I still prefer to read chat than listen to R4geN3rd1337.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 06, 2013, 05:02:26 am
I'm not sure I follow. Does Steambox offer a replacement to mouse+keyboard that doesn't work on a regular PC? Is it not possible to connect a regular PC to a television?
What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Dach on October 06, 2013, 07:43:54 am
That new controller do look interesting, would like to test it myself.

Since I'm already a PC couch gamer I like where this is heading.  :D

Wireless keyboard+mice already work nice on a couch. The biggest problem I have with couch gaming right now are games that aren't made for sitting 10" feet away from the screen.

I'm playing a lot of EVE Online, there is so much small character to read in that game, it's sometime really annoying. They do have a UI scaling option but it's not enough.  :?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 06, 2013, 10:33:13 am
I'm not sure I follow. Does Steambox offer a replacement to mouse+keyboard that doesn't work on a regular PC? Is it not possible to connect a regular PC to a television?
What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?
What does a console offer that a PC doesn't? A single ecosystem? A terrible control system? If you want to bottom line it like that, that's about it.

You need to follow the OS and the licensing. Microsoft is headed to a closed ecosystem, has always had outrageous licensing fees, and is in general a poor steward of any technology unless threatened. (Look how long it took them to make a modern browser until FireFox and then Chrome began to take market share)
The only reason they have been the leading platform for gaming is that PC's running MS Windows dominated the landscape. Consoles made major inroads into that market, but their hardware limitations, slow evolution, and lack of a viable controller for certain genre's of games, not to mention the high price of those games partly due to the necessity of physical media have prevented them from taking gaming away from the desktop. Many gamers I know would love to get away from Windows as a platform, but you play where the games are located and consoles today simply don't cut it.
Now you have Valve bringing a system that is open source sporting a free OS making the stewards the people who have driven a vast amount of the innovation in technology. Look at what Android did for mobile. While the box isn't going to be "One spec to rule them all, One spec to bind them", it will be limited enough to gain the benefits, especially since the different components appear to be limited to GPU (all Nvidia which has had the best drivers for their cards for years and years) and Intel CPU's. Since they do not vary wildly in their architecture, you really aren't going to have much in the way of compatibility issues with them. In fact, I don't think developers will see any adaptations to their code to accommodate the differences. So you still keep the benefits of a limited environment, but you can upgrade and so aren't limited to producing games for hardware that is now 8(!) years old. While not proven yet to my satisfaction, the new controller designed for the Steambox appears to at least have the potential to replace the mouse/keyboard combo in a way that the Xbox and PS have not. Finally, we are ALL familiar with what Steam has done for the price of PC games. They drove GameStop out of the PC gaming market in their storefronts. When you can play your games on a console for $20 instead of $60, MS and Sony are going to see a sharp decline in the sale of their own systems. All in all it has the potential to bring the best of both worlds to the gaming community and perhaps if successful enough, finally really bridge the gap between PC and console gamers.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 06, 2013, 12:29:32 pm
What does a console offer that a PC doesn't? A single ecosystem? A terrible control system? If you want to bottom line it like that, that's about it.

Uh, the certainty that games will run on it? A different game pool?


I think it's impressive how Valve managed to convince people that a PC in a box and a rebranded Linux are the future of gaming and can challenge consoles. I knew they were good at marketing, but I never imagined they were this good.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 06, 2013, 12:54:33 pm
What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?

So far, there's no difference. HTPC capable of playing games, running SteamOS is Steambox. But it won't perform the same in newer games if it has hardware that's not in "official" SteamMachines that will arrive on market next year. Think of Mac OSX, difference is that SteamOS can be installed on much wider range of machines without messing with kext files. But it won't be optimized for every hardware combination. But if you have compatible hardware, there will be no difference. It will perform just like SteamMachine bought in the store.

Quote
Uh, the certainty that games will run on it? A different game pool?

I'm fairly sure that games like HL3, TF3, L4D3 and Portal 3 will be timed SteamOS exclusives.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Xant on October 06, 2013, 01:03:24 pm
I'm fairly sure that games like HL3, TF3, L4D3 and Portal 3 will be timed SteamOS exclusives.
I highly doubt that. They're not going to massively limit the amount of people who can buy those games.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 06, 2013, 01:15:13 pm
They don't care how many people will buy HL3 at launch, their new platform is much more important for them. Steam was requirement for Half Life 2 and back in the days, Steam was godawful. Ugly, buggy, slow piece of shit client. But players were forced to use it to be able to play Half Life 2.

I also believe there's at least 5 million GabeN worshipers who will buy everything Valve makes. The likes of cmp aren't their loyal customers.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 06, 2013, 01:31:43 pm
I think it's impressive how Valve managed to convince people that a PC in a box and a rebranded Linux are the future of gaming and can challenge consoles. I knew they were good at marketing, but I never imagined they were this good.

No, the impressive thing is that it will work.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 06, 2013, 01:32:33 pm
"loyal customer" is a much beautiful way of saying "stupid".
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Xant on October 06, 2013, 01:59:05 pm
They don't care how many people will buy HL3 at launch, their new platform is much more important for them. Steam was requirement for Half Life 2 and back in the days, Steam was godawful. Ugly, buggy, slow piece of shit client. But players were forced to use it to be able to play Half Life 2.

I also believe there's at least 5 million GabeN worshipers who will buy everything Valve makes. The likes of cmp aren't their loyal customers.
Of course they care about how many people will buy HL3. It's a business. Requiring a program like Steam is also very different from requiring a new OS. More likely than it being a SteamOS exclusive is that SteamOS gets some bonuses, like the whole DX9/DX11 thing back with Vista/Windows 7.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 06, 2013, 02:22:50 pm
They could release Half Life 3 any time they wanted during past 6 years. They haven't. Digital distribution business comes first.

"loyal customer" is a much beautiful way of saying "stupid".

Call it the way you like, that won't change anything. You can't argue with those kind of people.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Xant on October 06, 2013, 03:03:44 pm
They could release Half Life 3 any time they wanted during past 6 years. They haven't. Digital distribution business comes first.
Except it's not made yet..?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 06, 2013, 03:26:04 pm
No, the impressive thing is that it will work.

What will work? x% of all games? And for the rest you need to install Windows or to stream them from a Windows PC.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 06, 2013, 03:52:02 pm
We'll see.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 06, 2013, 08:06:58 pm
A different game pool?

That isn't a feature, that's a pox on the gaming world where a game isn't available to all and even when it is, one population of gamer has their game gimped by the horrendous control scheme of the other.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 06, 2013, 08:08:03 pm
Could someone list me all the technical problems that would arise if you wanted to port all Windows games to a new OS ?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 06, 2013, 08:16:00 pm
Could someone list me all the technical problems that would arise if you wanted to port all Windows games to a new OS ?

Could you tell me how many angels would fit on the head of a pin?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Casimir on October 06, 2013, 08:40:36 pm
7
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 06, 2013, 08:48:16 pm
Could someone list me all the technical problems that would arise if you wanted to port all Windows games to a new OS ?

Biggest issue is lack of good OpenGL programmers. Actually, money is the problem. You can expect recent games like Rome II to be ported but forget about older games.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 06, 2013, 10:16:48 pm
That isn't a feature, that's a pox on the gaming world where a game isn't available to all and even when it is, one population of gamer has their game gimped by the horrendous control scheme of the other.

I agree entirely, but unfortunately the average console gamer doesn't.

Could someone list me all the technical problems that would arise if you wanted to port all Windows games to a new OS ?

The technical problems are insignificant compared to the real problem: big expense for no gain.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Grumbs on October 06, 2013, 11:42:12 pm
Not having to rely on Microsoft for the future of gaming platforms seems like a huge plus to me. Simply having a viable competitor could result in huge steps forward for pc gaming.

Personally I will look into at least duel booting with Steam OS if its possible
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 07, 2013, 02:12:38 am
You don't have to port the windows games over. I think the goal is to win devs over to develop for an open platform. This can only work if they get great tools for less money than what they have now, because they are already proficient with their old tools, so there has to be some incentive to move over.

Look at cmp here. No way he would ever move over to develop for an open platform using OpenGL, UNLESS he could get a good engine together with all required tools to make a great game for a small price. He's not an idealist, he just wants to make great games. And he's right of course, Mac and Linux gaming is no market you have to deliver to, yet, it's just too small.

But that might change soon.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Xant on October 07, 2013, 03:09:48 am
cmp is the unsung hero of the modern ages
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 07, 2013, 09:45:12 am
The technical problems are insignificant compared to the real problem: big expense for no gain.

I don't think there would be no gain from the perspective of a big gaming business seeking to eliminate intermediates like Microsoft. Nobody likes to be dependent. It would also satisfy the gamers that already ditched windows for wine or those that only keep using windows because they want to play games.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 07, 2013, 01:32:41 pm
Maybe Valve would profit from it (see Valve vs. Windows Store), but individual game developers wouldn't. They choose Windows because that's where the majority of the potential player base is, not because they are forced by Microsoft. It's not a inconvenient intermediary, it's just a tool to get the job done and they don't have any interest in changing it unless they find one that does it better.

TL;DR: whining about evil Microsoft doesn't help, improving Linux does
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 07, 2013, 04:45:38 pm
Quote
Not having to rely on Microsoft for the future of gaming platforms seems like a huge plus to me. Simply having a viable competitor could result in huge steps forward for pc gaming.

Personally I will look into at least duel booting with Steam OS if its possible

You're the perfect answer to question "why SteamOS?". You heard of it because of all the buzz and formed your opinion based on reputation of the company behind it and rumours that are flooding the internet. Just like most of potential customers.

Reality is, if you want to keep gaming on your desktop, any other Linux distribution is better choice (Ubuntu, Linux Mint) than SteamOS because SteamOS is meant for living room gaming on big TV screen, not for desktop usage. Believe me, there will be no difference because every single SteamOS game will work the same on Ubuntu.

Optimizations will be done on API/driver level, not in kernel like many people think. Valve just said that Linux kernel is better suited for their needs, because it's open (allows them to modify it, unlike NT kernel Microsoft uses which is proprietary technology) and because it offers much better gaming performance while recording a video (not sure why but it's a well known fact).

Quote
Maybe Valve would profit from it (see Valve vs. Windows Store), but individual game developers wouldn't. They choose Windows because that's where the majority of the potential player base is, not because they are forced by Microsoft. It's not a inconvenient intermediary, it's just a tool to get the job done and they don't have any interest in changing it unless they find one that does it better.

You're an indie dev, most large publishers don't think like that. They prefer Steam because its big marketplace with lots of customers. Distribution platforms is what they are seeking: Steam, Xbox Live, PSN etc. Steam takes less money for better service and that's the main reason why Sega, Deep Silver, Paradox and others will go with Valve. It's better for them if Steam takes the cake from Sony and Microsoft, because it offers them to earn more money by selling games.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 07, 2013, 05:23:40 pm
Valve just said that Linux kernel is better suited for their needs, because it's open (allows them to modify it, unlike NT kernel Microsoft uses which is proprietary technology)
Optimizations will be done on API/driver level, not in kernel like many people think.

So... make up your mind?

and because it offers much better gaming performance while recording a video (not sure why but it's a well known fact).

Anyone who puts "gaming performance while recording a video" and "kernel" in the same sentence has no idea what he's talking about. The only well known fact is that some of the most popular recording tools for Win (FRAPS above others) have a huge performance impact, but it has nothing to do with the kernel.

You're an indie dev, most large publishers don't think like that. They prefer Steam because its big marketplace with lots of customers.

That doesn't really contradict what I said. The vast majority of Steam users is on Windows right now.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Grumbs on October 07, 2013, 07:25:04 pm
Don't underestimate the shear clout Valve has when it comes to PC gaming now. Bringing out their own Linux with a load of buzz and their own "Steam Box" could push us to a more balanced PC gaming environment. Saying "just use Ubuntu or anything else because its better" doesn't really take into account what Valve are trying to achieve. Other versions of Linux might be better but its about creating a unified version with street cred. Valve putting resources into it, advertising, the whole "steam box" thing, the fact that they're Valve it will all combine to create something bigger than Linux has ever been in terms of being a viable gaming platform compared to Microsoft. Valve are pushing the whole living room/big screen/controller angle but its still about creating another option for PC gaming

I'm all for competition and not having to rely on Microsoft for my PC gaming needs in the future. Windows 8 is a good example of what happens when you have no competition in this area.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 07, 2013, 11:46:39 pm
Valve will help Linux ecosystem a lot, and every Linux distro will improve. Especially Debian based distros like Ubuntu or Mint.

There will be no difference between good distro and SteamOS when it comes to game performance. I advise you to use Ubuntu because it's meant to be used on desktop (or tablet), while SteamOS is targeting TVs. There won't be SteamOS for desktop users, at least not for some time. You'll probably be able to use different DE but that's practically the same as using other distro.

You can use SteamOS on desktop alright but that's the same like using XBMC on your desktop. It's created with big TV in mind, not PC monitor and you'll navigate using controller, not mouse or keyboard.

Again I repeat, everything that SteamOS has (better drivers, improved OpenGL API, kernel tweaks) will be available for Ubuntu/Mint/Archlinux as well. That's how it goes in the world of open source.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 08, 2013, 12:05:26 am
So... make up your mind?

Anyone who puts "gaming performance while recording a video" and "kernel" in the same sentence has no idea what he's talking about. The only well known fact is that some of the most popular recording tools for Win (FRAPS above others) have a huge performance impact, but it has nothing to do with the kernel.

Read this part "...not sure why..." first. I don't understand why it works better under Linux but it does. Valve said it as well and I've read it in some articles. You can't blame apps for it because most game recording apps for Windows degrade performance in similar way (if settings are the same). On Linux, open source apps give a lot better performance. Somehow, knowing average quality of open source software, I doubt it's because of applications. It has to have something to do with kernel. Do you have better explanation why games under Linux perform better while recording a video?

That doesn't really contradict what I said. The vast majority of Steam users is on Windows right now.

That is correct. But devs are still porting games to Linux, despite laughable market share. That's because they are working with Valve on this project, because they will get bigger cut out of 50 dollar game then they do on consoles. They plan to sell 10+ million copies of popular games on Steambox, not 2-3 million at best like on PC Windows.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 08, 2013, 12:29:36 am
Read this part "...not sure why..." first. I don't understand why it works better under Linux but it does. Valve said it as well and I've read it in some articles. You can't blame apps for it because most game recording apps for Windows degrade performance in similar way (if settings are the same). On Linux, open source apps give a lot better performance. Somehow, knowing average quality of open source software, I doubt it's because of applications. It has to have something to do with kernel. Do you have better explanation why games under Linux perform better while recording a video?

You don't understand it, but you know exactly where the problem lies? I don't buy it. Why don't you show some sources on those claims?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 08, 2013, 12:36:27 am
I'm guessing about kernel being an issue. Can't dig for articles atm but here's proof of better performance. When not recording game runs the same on both systems.

Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 08, 2013, 12:40:24 am
Your proof is a video of a single game using FRAPS (one of the worst and slowest recorders for Windows). :facepalm:
Also, have you even looked at the video? At the initial helicopter scene the Linux side is super choppy at 100FPS, while the Windows side is smooth at 50. :doublefacepalm:
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Banok on October 08, 2013, 12:44:12 am
I get the skepticism, can't see steamboxs competing with consoles. But us PC gamers are getting a potentially awesome free OS upgrade. Plus a possibly awesome new peripheral, I actually made front page of reddit with this post:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1nijg3/the_only_reason_im_interested_in_the_steam/

I can defo see myself dual booting win7 with steamOS simply for the likely huge boost to gaming performance. And probably rarely going back to windows because there are very few windows programs I run other than games. New ATI/nvidia API's will likely replace direct X and we can ditch microsoft completely.

Lets face facts; when has windows EVER found a solution to the problem?
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 08, 2013, 12:59:58 am
New ATI/nvidia API's will likely replace direct X and we can ditch microsoft completely.

There is no new NVIDIA APIs announced and from what we know about AMD's Mantle it will be initially implemented in the Windows driver only. Just saying.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Grumbs on October 08, 2013, 01:01:11 am
After all Valve have done for pushing indi developers with Greenlight, Workshop, the Steam platform itself for publishing..You would think indi devs like Donkey Crew would embrace this. I don't see the point in opposing this imo. Doesn't even matter how good SteamOS is compared to Ubuntu or whatever, its all about what Valve brings to the table in terms of credibility. I might not get SteamOS, but if this all takes off I might be in a position to move away from Microsoft eventually with Ubuntu or something

Why not have some faith in these guys? They are a positive future for PC gaming IMO
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: cmp on October 08, 2013, 01:05:43 am
Being skeptical about something isn't opposing it.
Also, Valve does what it does for profit, not out of the kindness of their hearts (not that I'm blaming them for that).
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Grumbs on October 08, 2013, 01:12:19 am
You see profiteering, I see games getting published and advertised that would never see the light of day otherwise.

Valve are a business but there are so many games I have access to now that would never be here otherwise, or would be released and disappear shortly after

I would advise just to have some faith in these guys, they didn't take a wrong turn yet when it comes to empowering indi devs and getting games published without the weight of big publishers
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 08, 2013, 01:33:52 am
Your proof is a video of a single game using FRAPS (one of the worst and slowest recorders for Windows). :facepalm:
Also, have you even looked at the video? At the initial helicopter scene the Linux side is super choppy at 100FPS, while the Windows side is smooth at 50. :doublefacepalm:

I'm not sure why are you arguing with me? To prove my claims wrong? To make things easier, I admit I was wrong about everything I said in this thread. Don't listen or read what I've read, folks. It's not true, just my personal opinion which is obviously wrong. Thankfully, there's that beautiful thing called freedom of mind where I can be wrong in the eyes of everyone else and right in my own eyes. Call me stupid, idiot, delusional... I cherish that human characteristic.   

It all about being excited because of the potential I see here. It could fail badly but that's the risk I'm willing to take. Fifteen years with Microsoft have been pain, suffering, massive letdowns, like I was dealing with the devil himself for those 15 years. On the other hand, ten years of occasional Linux usage and five years using Steam has been mostly delightful experience. And I'm going to support them, because I see brighter future with them.

Using Windows 8 for a full year. You should try it too, quality product. Someone said Battlefield 4 works better on Win8, wonderful game that Battlefield 4 indeed.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: zagibu on October 08, 2013, 08:58:21 am
To be honest, the steam software is still a buggy mess. The checkout process works okay, I guess, but the rest of the interface frequently produces "Cannot display page" or "Unknown error -1", etc. I always assumed it's because of the massive amount of players that are accessing those services, but who knows?

I mostly thank Valve for introducing the sales philosophy, because 10 years ago, it wasn't possible to get a AAA game that was released half a year ago for 75% off.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 08, 2013, 09:41:31 am
To be honest, the steam software is still a buggy mess. The checkout process works okay, I guess, but the rest of the interface frequently produces "Cannot display page" or "Unknown error -1", etc. I always assumed it's because of the massive amount of players that are accessing those services, but who knows?

Mine never does. Never. Sure it isn't you?

Of course, remember they don't control the platform or hardware configurations (yet).
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leesin on October 08, 2013, 09:44:19 am
Valve are by far one of the best companies out there for PC gaming right now and have been for a long time, yes they're a business, they need to make money, but so do all the other companies but it just so happens Valve aren't JUST here to make money. They have given a lot to the gaming community with their own games ( and the modability of their games giving us awesome mods through the years, which without a doubt carried a large part of the FPS MP scene for years upon years ) and also with STEAM, which I've used for 10 years and has only gotten better and better.

I see people slating Steam and saying it's buggy, it's this and that, it's restrictive because I've gotta have internet to download games blah blah ( I might sound like an arsehole, but tough fucking shit if your 3rd world home has shitty internet, that doesn't mean Steam sucks ), maybe years ago it was buggy, but I don't have any problems with it whatsoever nowadays and it's never been so buggy that I couldn't use it. Also Steam sales, no explanation needed, thanks Valve.

Right now Valve is one of the very few companies that give life to the PC gaming industry, maybe I sound a bit fanboyish, but that's a fact and hey, fuck it, I am a fan of Valve. Personally I think Valve also breaking into the console market will be awesome for console gaming, the market needs more competition rather than just Microsoft vs Sony ( IMO Nintendo aren't in the same console market anymore, their consoles have gone down another route, more designed for kids, families and cock suckers ).
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 08, 2013, 10:00:47 am
All sufficiently big businesses are only there to make money. Steam is no different. They just have this unusual strategy of caring about their consumers and reputation.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on October 08, 2013, 10:18:59 am
gaben is god

f2p + huge population + hats business model = happy customers & $$$

steam sales = happy customers & $$$

there's nothing to not like about volvo
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 08, 2013, 11:46:27 am
there's nothing to not like about volvo

Except being owned by a China based holding or something. I'm a full hipster an would buy a Saab instead anyway.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on October 08, 2013, 11:47:59 am
Except being owned by a China based holding or something. I'm a full hipster an would buy a Saab instead anyway.

that's probably gabes personal company to avoid 1st world taxes
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Thovex on October 08, 2013, 12:07:11 pm
Except being owned by a China based holding or something. I'm a full hipster an would buy a Saab instead anyway.

source pls
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Kafein on October 08, 2013, 12:17:01 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang_Geely_Holding_Group

Note that it's only Volvo Cars, the rest of Volvo appears to be independent.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Vibe on October 08, 2013, 01:36:32 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang_Geely_Holding_Group

Note that it's only Volvo Cars, the rest of Volvo appears to be independent.

oh you

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 08, 2013, 01:37:54 pm
Their trucks are better anyway.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: bilwit on October 10, 2013, 06:02:10 am
Valve will help Linux ecosystem a lot, and every Linux distro will improve. Especially Debian based distros like Ubuntu or Mint.

There will be no difference between good distro and SteamOS when it comes to game performance. I advise you to use Ubuntu because it's meant to be used on desktop (or tablet), while SteamOS is targeting TVs. There won't be SteamOS for desktop users, at least not for some time. You'll probably be able to use different DE but that's practically the same as using other distro.

You can use SteamOS on desktop alright but that's the same like using XBMC on your desktop. It's created with big TV in mind, not PC monitor and you'll navigate using controller, not mouse or keyboard.

Again I repeat, everything that SteamOS has (better drivers, improved OpenGL API, kernel tweaks) will be available for Ubuntu/Mint/Archlinux as well. That's how it goes in the world of open source.

I think your assuming way too much here. They've said countless times that being able to stream from your PC to a TV (DLNA?) is one of the big points about SteamOS. I'm not entirely convinced as you are that the whole GUI will be completely designed for tablets without any alternative (ala Windows 8.. though M$ dun fucked up there)--though I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 10, 2013, 12:57:20 pm
It's not DLNA, they will be using streaming technology nVidia developed for their handheld console SHIELD.

About GUI, I'm pretty sure it will be the same as Steam Big Picture.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on October 12, 2013, 01:02:23 am
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Rumblood on October 12, 2013, 02:30:23 am

2:50 was the important part. Not ideal, but certainly 200% better than existing controllers for an FPS.
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Leshma on January 07, 2014, 02:09:26 am
http://live.theverge.com/valve-ces-2014-press-event-live-blog/
http://live.arstechnica.com/liveblog-valves-ces-press-conference/
Title: Re: Universe Expanding
Post by: Banok on January 07, 2014, 08:09:14 am
maybe one of the $500 models will be able to compete with consoles, but all these expensive models are pointless and only confusing the target audience.