cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Utraque on May 12, 2011, 10:07:20 pm

Title: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Utraque on May 12, 2011, 10:07:20 pm
If you are going to nerf heirloomed horses so much that they are barely indistinguishable from their standard version, at least do us the courtesy of refunding the heirloom. Honest to god.

I don't write in forums that often, but the continuous revisions to items *AFTER* major patches is really irksome. I understand that tweaks are necessary, but do them *BEFORE* you refund heirlooms. Otherwise, the decision to use a costly heirloom (1-31 in game time for a user) on an item is, in effect, an uninformed decision.

If we cannot even trust that things ARE what they SAY they are (or will continue to be, tomorrow), then **what incentive do we have to invest the time in CRPG**?

None. There is a reason that I've been playing Mount and Musket of late. The pernicious combination of uncertainty (patch changes) and grind (always minding repair bills) means that not only is it time-consuming to get rewards such as heirlooms, but those rewards were falsely advertised.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: okiN on May 12, 2011, 10:13:23 pm
Quote from: Utraque on May 12, 2011, 10:07:20 pm
If we cannot even trust that things ARE what they SAY they are (or will continue to be, tomorrow), then **what incentive do we have to invest the time in CRPG**?

None.

Your call. The mod is in active development. If you want stability, feel free to wait for a final version.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Nindur on May 12, 2011, 10:55:41 pm
You should be happy....I use a heirloomed catphract and a x3 Heirloomed Kite sheild.....they both got nerfed into the dirt, so my two favourite items are more or less useless to me now :):):):):):):)::):):):):):):):):):):):)


Which I dont really have a problem with because skill is more imporatant then heirlooms now......I  have yet to look over the exact numbers on the different horses now....but as long as they nerfed the SHIT out of the courser....I dont have a problem with the horse nerfs
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Baggy on May 12, 2011, 10:56:56 pm
I think the smilies express your inense disapoitment hidden under a smiling facade.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: chadz on May 12, 2011, 10:59:02 pm
I'd like to hear examples of these items that got nerfed so hard.

Please post the values before and after.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 11:14:04 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 10:59:02 pm
I'd like to hear examples of these items that got nerfed so hard.

Please post the values before and after.
For example a cataphract 3/3:

Before:
hit points: 125
body armor:50
difficulty: 5
speed: 42
maneuver: 44
charge: 42

After:
hit points: 135
body armor: 51
difficulty: 5
speed: 40
maneuver: 42
charge: 42

Which now makes it just as useless as all the other armoured horses, they are simply not worth it anymore. Too slow and unmanouverable. Charge damage is minimal, armour isn't useful when your horse is too slow to get you out of there alive.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:18:09 pm
-2 speed, -2 maneuver, +10 hitpoints, +1 armor
I am sorry, are you serious?
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Belatu on May 12, 2011, 11:20:04 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:18:09 pm
-2 speed, -2 maneuver, +10 hitpoints, +1 armor
I am sorry, are you serious?

feel the hate!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 11:20:36 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:18:09 pm
-2 speed, -2 maneuver, +10 hitpoints, +1 armor
I am sorry, are you serious?
You devs seem to forget how useless those extra hp and armorpoints are and how useful speed and manouvre are.
Speed and Manouverability form the key stats for a horse, nerf them, and you nerf the horses which lack them the most.

All I'm asking for is for armoured horses heirlooms to be reverted, light horses must stay the same to prevent insane manouverability on Arabian Warhorses and the like.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: okiN on May 12, 2011, 11:22:33 pm
It's not a nerf on horses, though, it's a nerf on heirlooms. And while it's significant, it's in no way crippling.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Baggy on May 12, 2011, 11:24:53 pm
More hp and armour is the whole point of them horses.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 11:26:08 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 12, 2011, 11:22:33 pm
It's not a nerf on horses, though, it's a nerf on heirlooms. And while it's significant, it's in no way crippling.
It is crippling to the diversity you wanted horsemen to have.

Armoured Horses are made even more useless compared to light ones.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:26:26 pm
As you may know, I have nothing to do with item balancing, I just receive all the whine.

Now I wanted to see what this whine is about. I always thought items would lose like 10% of their effectiveness or something. So now I wanted to have a look at the stats myself. This stuff is not even worth mentioning. No one would notice the difference without having a look at the values.

Seriously, if it's not at least 5-10% stat loss, stop the whine, please.

Quote from: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 11:20:36 pm
All I'm asking for is for armoured horses heirlooms to be reverted, light horses must stay the same to prevent insane manouverability on Arabian Warhorses and the like.
No you were not asking for it, you were crying like a little baby. And believe it or not, we not only ignore whine, we have great fun reading it.
So if you want to be taken seriously, make a proper post about it, kthxbai.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Elio on May 12, 2011, 11:30:34 pm
For Horses :

0.221 (before) :
(click to show/hide)

0.223 (after) :
(click to show/hide)

Buffed horses for HA : Desert Horse (+1 speed) & Arabian Horse (+2 speed) (-2 maneuver, but still 50)
Buffed : Destrier (+1 speed) (+1 charge)

Nerfed : Cataphract Horse (-3 body armor)
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 11:31:55 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:26:26 pm
As you may know, I have nothing to do with item balancing, I just receive all the whine.

Now I wanted to see what this whine is about. I always thought items would lose like 10% of their effectiveness or something. So now I wanted to have a look at the stats myself. This stuff is not even worth mentioning. No one would notice the difference without having a look at the values.

Seriously, if it's not at least 5-10% stat loss, stop the whine, please.
No you were not asking for it, you were crying like a little baby. And believe it or not, we not only ignore whine, we have great fun reading it.
So if you want to be taken seriously, make a proper post about it, kthxbai.
What is not proper about my posts when I talk about cav? I'm not crying, simply trying to have a normal discussion on the subject. But I've seen your mate cmpx behave the same, unwilling to show he was wrong.

All you guys ever reply to people like me, backing up their statements with arguments, is: stop the whine, you are fine, you can still ride your horse, fuck the community, we are the devs, we know all about this, you know shit, go to hell.

Yup, thanks for replying donkey troll.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:46:33 pm
Quote from: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 10:22:53 pm
Cav whiners win again.
Arabian Warhorse / Courser users win again.
Armoured Horses users got fucked, again.
Quote from: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 08:18:59 pm
They did the same with cav.
Arabian Warhorse Abusers win.
Quote from: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 08:17:50 pm
Darn it, just as I thought, shouldve just gone for pure polearm user or shielder. Cavalry suddenly gets hit from all sides, now it just seems I should just take my skills elsewhere.
Quote from: Magikarp on May 12, 2011, 05:30:34 pm
Seriously? Another cav nerf?
Our horses, just like our lance, completely useless to heirloom. Seems you guys want us to heirloom our sidearms.

you need any more examples?

Do you know what would be the sane thing to do?
You go into the proper forum, (may I suggest "Suggestions Corner -> Game Balance Discussion"),
create a thread, (may I suggest something like "new heirloom horse modifiers"),
bring forward your points.

What really fucking pisses me off is that the first thing people do after a patch release is
a) check if the item you used has lost any stats (no, you are not the fucking center of the dev universe, and we do not balance the game around you),
b) if so, enter the forum, and just spam every fucking topic with more or less retarded comments how unfair the dev team is and how they hate this and that and that they just try to kill the devs' hated class or buff vice versa

Just start a proper discussion and stop this whiny bitch acting, because I cant stand it any more.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: ManOfWar on May 12, 2011, 11:49:00 pm
chadz, can you give us your word that you are at least looking at the suggestions forum daily? I made a side sword nerf thread, asking for a reasonable side sword nerf, and now look at it!

Its a piece of crap!
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Camaris on May 12, 2011, 11:50:45 pm
chadzinator ;)
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Zergmar on May 12, 2011, 11:52:25 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:18:09 pm
-2 speed, -2 maneuver, +10 hitpoints, +1 armor

You're less mobile so they can stick more arrows up your arse, but you're tougher so you can stand half of an arrow longer!
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Digglez on May 12, 2011, 11:53:04 pm
Thanks for the changelog Elio, you're so helpful.

Still no changes to completely unused warhorses?  lower the prices!
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Zanthos on May 12, 2011, 11:54:51 pm
This seems to benefit the lower tier horses quite nicely but only seems to be a bit of a nerf to the higher tier with no noticeable benefits.

I'll be very honest, had I known this change was coming, I probably would have heirloomed the courser and not the cataphract. With 6 riding, it feels much more difficult to maneuver now. I liked it being JUST capable of maneuvering how I wanted and armored enough to not die super fast... and thus worth the constant bleeding of gold since I'll never make a living with how often this thing needs repair.

The hit to maneuver and speed is much more felt than the buffs to hitpoints or armor. In fact, the boosts to hitpoint and armor have not been noticeably different in actual gameplay with .223. The horse already had a lot of both previously... so a tiny buff in either is not going to be significantly felt. Since the horse had relatively low speed and maneuverability to begin with, taking away more of it is more noticeable. Had I not looked at the stats, I would have simply said "what the heck, my horse is suddenly slower and won't turn like it used to".

Thankfully I have not used all of my heirloom points and I might grab the courser as well now. I might actually make some cash riding it as well :)
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Spawny on May 12, 2011, 11:59:26 pm
Allthough manouvering and speed -2 seems insignificant, those stats get affected by the riding stat.
Armour and hp are not.

Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:26:26 pm
Seriously, if it's not at least 5-10% stat loss, stop the whine, please.

Aight, let's bring up my precious wardarts. -3 stacksize out of 7. That's a reduction of 42.8%. WTF?

Throwing knives/daggers, the shuriken and throwing rocks still have a stacksize of 8. I guess they are next in line.

Good thing you can block with them, so you don't even have to bring another weapon if you want to defend yourself.

Oh wait...
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Nindur on May 13, 2011, 12:05:09 am
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 10:59:02 pm
I'd like to hear examples of these items that got nerfed so hard.

Please post the values before and after.

Heavy Cataphract to the Well Bred cataphract

I am not 100 percent on the previous values of the heavy cata
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: NuberT on May 13, 2011, 12:08:27 am
I have a champion arabian warhorse and I am fine with it, it was just ridiculous before like a go kart o_O
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Magikarp on May 13, 2011, 12:12:43 am
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:46:33 pm
you need any more examples?

Do you know what would be the sane thing to do?
You go into the proper forum, (may I suggest "Suggestions Corner -> Game Balance Discussion"),
create a thread, (may I suggest something like "new heirloom horse modifiers"),
bring forward your points.

What really fucking pisses me off is that the first thing people do after a patch release is
a) check if the item you used has lost any stats (no, you are not the fucking center of the dev universe, and we do not balance the game around you),
b) if so, enter the forum, and just spam every fucking topic with more or less retarded comments how unfair the dev team is and how they hate this and that and that they just try to kill the devs' hated class or buff vice versa

Just start a proper discussion and stop this whiny bitch acting, because I cant stand it any more.

(click to show/hide)
Are my statements wrong than?

a. Ridiculous, why would I ever whine if in my opinion a nerf on my item was justified? Posting for mere unneeded buffs is not what I will ever do.
b. I think I hit your rage button, good. Which means I will be heard. I have started more than enough threads on the subject, yet you guys never reply to them, ever. When I go to the thread of the patch, I state my opinion, all I get is the same shit I'm now getting.

Seriously, just close down the suggestion forum, what's the point if you don't take us seriously?

I can't stand this shit anymore either.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Jarlek on May 13, 2011, 12:44:43 am
Jesus Christ, magikarp. Stop the bloody whining. Yes this is whining. Yes this is a nerf to heirloomed horses. HEIRLOOMED horses. And yes the armoured horses are really worthless compared to the unarmoured once because of their slow speed and "fuck-you" upkeep. Still, I have seen you post this and whine this all fucking day. Relax and think a bit more before you start posting. Otherwise I'll have to pre-read all your post before I'll let you post them (can this be added chadz?)

@chadz: Excuse him while I tell him about proper net-etiquette, ok? Also, thanks for watching the suggestion thread. Would surprise you how many modders, and even developers(!), who doesn't do that. PS: He actually does have a point when he said that cav is getting slight nerfs every patch. Might make a thread (with a civil tone) about it.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Bonze on May 13, 2011, 01:05:29 am
Quote from: chadz on May 12, 2011, 11:46:33 pm
you need any more examples?

Do you know what would be the sane thing to do?
You go into the proper forum, (may I suggest "Suggestions Corner -> Game Balance Discussion"),
create a thread, (may I suggest something like "new heirloom horse modifiers"),
bring forward your points.

What really fucking pisses me off is that the first thing people do after a patch release is
a) check if the item you used has lost any stats (no, you are not the fucking center of the dev universe, and we do not balance the game around you),
b) if so, enter the forum, and just spam every fucking topic with more or less retarded comments how unfair the dev team is and how they hate this and that and that they just try to kill the devs' hated class or buff vice versa

Just start a proper discussion and stop this whiny bitch acting, because I cant stand it any more.

(click to show/hide)

Wow great balance,  nerf  minor builds  "top scored"  heavy cav (irony off) . Push the ranged/roof camping  bunnyhopping trash, epileptic meele fights especially 300 pike  and laggy backstabbing courser/sarranid lancers..well done


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Thtb on May 13, 2011, 01:07:41 am
I personally would use the option to re-spend my heirloom points at this moment.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 13, 2011, 01:21:47 am
Quote from: Magikarp on May 13, 2011, 12:12:43 am
Are my statements wrong than?

a. Ridiculous, why would I ever whine if in my opinion a nerf on my item was justified? Posting for mere unneeded buffs is not what I will ever do.

Because from a players perspective a nerf to their items is never justified, or worse a personal attack on them by the devs.

Quote from: Magikarp on May 13, 2011, 12:12:43 am
b. I think I hit your rage button, good. Which means I will be heard. I have started more than enough threads on the subject, yet you guys never reply to them, ever. When I go to the thread of the patch, I state my opinion, all I get is the same shit I'm now getting.

Seriously, just close down the suggestion forum, what's the point if you don't take us seriously?

I can't stand this shit anymore either.

Just calm down please. If you don't like a change state why and offer solid arguments, do your best to avoid whining and if the issue is so bad that you can't enjoy the game then stop playing.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Thovex on May 13, 2011, 01:38:33 am
Quit it Charlemagne
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Tydeus on May 13, 2011, 02:22:19 am
I hear hp becomes more effective the more armor the user(horse) has, confirm/deny?

Seems to me like these changes hurt armored horses the least.
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Duke on May 13, 2011, 03:09:41 am
I'm a crossbowman and I hate cavalry with a passion, but I agree that it's unfair to nerf their heirlooms without a refund.


signed,
your bitter enemy, but also your friend (THIS TIME!)   :shock:
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Havoco on May 13, 2011, 03:27:50 am
In the case of a cataphract, it's an armored horse. I'd think you would want more hp and armor instead. And yes tydeus, because horses have so much hp, every point of armor counts a big deal (and more when u add more hp with armor addition!)

But I know utraque uses coursers more than armored horses so what happened with those?
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 13, 2011, 06:15:53 am
Quote from: Spawny on May 12, 2011, 11:59:26 pm
throwing rocks still have a stacksize of 8. I guess they are next in line.
For the record, bro, my masterwork stones used to have 15 per bag. 15.
let's count


nope, still wasn't 8 per stack.
(sorry, i just laughed)
(and i got to trade my stone heirlooms into a PIKE AND I AM A HAPPY PLAYER)
[throwing got shit on a little too hard though, it isn't really viable anymore, needs higher accuracy or something]
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Jarlek on May 13, 2011, 11:38:27 am
Quote from: Marathon on May 13, 2011, 06:15:53 am
For the record, bro, my masterwork stones used to have 15 per bag. 15.
let's count


nope, still wasn't 8 per stack.
(sorry, i just laughed)
(and i got to trade my stone heirlooms into a PIKE AND I AM A HAPPY PLAYER)
[throwing got shit on a little too hard though, it isn't really viable anymore, needs higher accuracy or something]
Sort of completely off topic, but are you talking about the pike, now known as long spear, or the pike formerly known as long pike? I put a loom in the former pike, but after having gotten used to the pike in Fire and Sword, I want to go long pike here too. How is it you think?
Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 13, 2011, 11:42:39 am
I never welcome cav nerfs but i test it out before bitchin'

but even though he rants a lot, i have to admit that magikarp has a point!

In riding, its speed and maneouvrabilty that saves you and your horses ass and not the armor...
Riding sarranid or courser i zigzag making hit harder for the rangeshit to hit me. When i crash into a tree i do a spin before leaving confusing the archer and evading arrows.
With heavier horses this is much harder, you cant suddenly turn round and speed away...

More armor...thats good but loosing speed and maneouvrability....makes me even more
vulnerable to my greatest enemy, the xbowman
the f***** even with a light xbow does insane amount and damage taking away 75% wearing vaegir elite armor....now that my cat horse is slower and less turning...I...I dont even want to think about it...im gonna get totally raped and even more by horse xbowmen...

So speed and manoeuver saves you and your horse, horse armor...just your horse...

I really feel like bitchin about new stats (what, arabian horse got more speed? What destrier has better or equal stats in all except speed). But ill try it out first and i love my courser <3

Title: Re: Are you kidding me?
Post by: Utraque on May 13, 2011, 09:04:53 pm
Just checked my thread and suddenly saw all the back and forth!

Quote from: Havoco on May 13, 2011, 03:27:50 am
In the case of a cataphract, it's an armored horse. I'd think you would want more hp and armor instead. And yes tydeus, because horses have so much hp, every point of armor counts a big deal (and more when u add more hp with armor addition!)

But I know utraque uses coursers more than armored horses so what happened with those?

Thanks for your reply, Havoc; hopefully, I can try to steer us back to my original question...

If you're going to nerf a heirloomed weapon (which *is* understandable...some weapons can simply become too powerful for proper game balance), why not at least give people refunds for their hard-earned heirlooms?

It's not as though my choice to heirloom a Couser was abusive in any way. I was presented a set of choices, and picked one item out of dozens to heirloom.

Here was the pre-patch Courser, with the Heavy Courser's stats to the side:
hit points 100-----------> 110
body armor 18----------> 24
requirement 4-----------> same
horse speed 48----------> same
horse maneuver 42------> same
horse charge 24----------> 32

This was a substantial improvement in the durability of a fast but fragile horse. In my own words, it made this horse into the faster, "Sport" version of the Destrier (whose primary virtue was it's greater durability over lighter horses).

It made me - a fellow who swore to his clanmates he wouldn't retire because it required so much extra time - work for an heirloom to apply to my courser.

Now? Here is the "Well Bred Courser", the Heavy's replacement at Gen1, next to the Heavy Courser.

hit points 105<----------- 110
body armor 18<---------- 24
requirement        same
horse speed         same
horse maneuver 43<------ 42
horse charge 25<---------- 32

It effectively eliminates the durability gain and charge bonus.

What's worse, is that the only improvements this gives over a basic Courser are 5hp (-5 hp, -6 armour, and -7 charge  from the Heavy), plus 1 charge, and plus 1 maneuver. Maybe that's game balance, but that isn't the point.

All I am saying is that if you dramatically change a heirloomed weapon (as is the case with this specific horse), shouldn't you refund that 'heirloom point' to the owner? Please?