cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: DonNicko on September 19, 2013, 10:32:53 am
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I have just one question: why one-handed swords have more pierce damage than some polearms. For example great long bardiche has 18 pierce and Nordic champion sword has 21 pierce. But in real life I will make more thrust damage with bardiche, because I will use two hands. So I think one handed weapons are OP in thrust damage
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nerff 1 h stab
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nerf 1h knockdown
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Just look at how point most 1h swords are and after that look how point your bardiche is , I´m 100% sure a 1h would pierce armour better with the thrust then a bardiche would.
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Well really not, as I said because of using two hands you will make more damage. You will make more damage with a sword if it just a flesh without armor.
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1 hand is the new 4 direction hoplite. I was playing like I usually do as hop lite but with unloomed long esparda and with 1 wpf it was still very effective. I think with some wpf and masterwork it would be pretty insane. Scoreboards don't necessafilly show how op something is but I was top a few maps
I think the high stab was justified before because the stab was hard to use, now the damage is a bit much. i got 2 shot by a guy in the chest yesterday. Point black instastabs
Anyway cu in chamber of tears
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1h stab is ok now, at least there is something against 2h "lolstabs".
Historically weapons like rapiers replaced typical medieval swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier) so it kinda proves that stab damage was found more useful than the cutting one.
For bardiche vs 1h sword comparision - there are three things (on attacking side) that actually influence the power of thrust:
a) speed
b) mass of the attacking item (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum)
c) size of the contact spot
Don't know how it is implemented in Warband/cRPG but the biggest speed and mass of a weapon are and the smaller (and sharper) the striking tip of the weapon is - the more damage it does. That explains why huge and heavy bardiche with relatively big tip can't be as effective as light and sharp sword.
Also if you ever fought irl using an axe or a sword you will know the difference when it comes to thrusting. Axes and berdiches aren't handy for thrusting - and of course it is possible to thrust with them (with sufficient strength you are even able to make a thrust with a refrigerator :)) but position of your body while thrusting with a berdiche doesn't allow to use as much of your body mass in the process - so the thrust is weaker.
The best unreal thing now is that shield becomes instantly penetrable while you start a shield bash. Any plan to fix it?
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Personally I don't think its worth getting into a realism debate about this. Especially when you think of how unrealistic other aspects are. You can't really look at realism in a vacuum. Armour doesn't work at all realistically, you wouldn't stab up to the hilt with a combat style thrust against most of these armours we have, especially when someone is moving away from the attack. Against armour I reckon a heavy weapon wielded in 2 hands is going to do more than a light 1 handed thrust anyway
Its more about balance and fun though imo
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Well, with the old 1h stab the balance was fine because landing a it was so difficult. But that now that it's really hard to fail a 1h stab the damage is probably too much with some of the 1handers.
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long bardiche has a heavy blade not fit for stabbing. that stab is here just for a bit of realism.
also, this is prolly for gameplay ballance.
if you want to make it realistic, you would have to add huge ass recovery time for LB everytime it swings.
EDIT: please, just stop crying about 1h stabs already and learn to block down, i am sick of this shit. really.
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Then explain to me why can polearms and 2 handers happily swing through walls. Realism doesn't only go the way you want it to.
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Then explain to me why can polearms and 2 handers happily swing through walls. Realism doesn't only go the way you want it to.
this /\
i cant count how many times i got stuck in wall with my espada, only to be killed by a sideswing of some mofo with great sword.
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"adjust" pierce dmg!
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Then explain to me why can polearms and 2 handers happily swing through walls. Realism doesn't only go the way you want it to.
Whoa now, don't go lumping us honorable polearm users with those guys... only they have lightsabers. I wish my axe could swing though all obstacles... I glance on sideswings, overheads, and stabs if there is a nought but a twig behind me, not at all in my swing path.
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Well really not, as I said because of using two hands you will make more damage. You will make more damage with a sword if it just a flesh without armor.
What the fuck does two hands matter? The point is small and the round part of the blade would prevent it from even going thru a couple of inches. Just fucking silly. Use a real weapon without stab you scrub
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There are 2 reasons why GL Bardiche has worse stab than the NCS. Realism, and Balance.
Balance:
GL Bardich has waaay more reach and waaay more cut damage. It can rear horses, and break shields.
NCS is faster, can be used with a shield, and has a slightly better stab.
If the GL Bardiche has a great stab, or the NCS had a worse stab, they would be OP/UP respectively.
Realism:
The GL Bardiche has a curved blade...not very good for stabbing. It's like trying to shove a sharpened tennis racket into somebody. It's not going to work very well.
The NCS, while it does have a somewhat "spatulate" tip, it does have a point and a straight blade. Even though the GL Bardische can be used with two hands, you would not be able to shove that blade into something as deeply as the NCS.
What can penetrate a human body more? A sharpened tennis racket thrust with 2 hands, or a sharpened butter knife thrust with one? The knife will penetrate further. The other is just too broad for real penetration.
Now put the tennis racket on a long pole. It becomes imbalanced and harder to control exactly where you're stabbing. This makes it even harder to penetrate into a vital spot.
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I think the issue is with speed bonus; you pretty much can't help but achieve maximum speed bonus with thrusts, which is why 31 pierce from a thrust always seems to do way more damage than 31 pierce from a steel pick. It's also why an agility awlpiker does just as much damage as a strength awlpiker (try it in single player).
Maybe the speed bonus formula could be adjusted to provide less benefit for thrusts (for all weapon types)?
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I have just one question: why one-handed swords have more pierce damage than some polearms.
Because of crap 25-27c swings. Swings from them do so little damage that you can shrug it off (hyperbole, but you know what I mean). And even so, they have less pierce than the dedicated stab polearms, and are more akin to spears. Adjust side sword's damage to 28c 28p and balance Spathion vs Knightly Arming Sword. At 28c 28p, there's a 1:1 exchange between cut and pierce damage compared to the espadas. Maybe even remove the +3 swing +3 stab from MW weapons and make it +3 +2 depending on the weapon's specialization.
30c 31p doesn't sound so bad compared to the 32c 32p we have now.
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Swing damage might not be much, but it allows you to feint which by itself can allow you to get a stab in. You can let some left swings/overheads hit too, its not like they do no damage especially when they hit the head. 15-20 blunt on unshielded spears is about the same, and you can do it without sheathing the shield
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30c 31p doesn't sound so bad compared to the 32c 32p we have now.
Yeah, the different bonuses at +3 for different weapons business is silly. I'm OK with the peasant weapons getting +4 cut at Elder's, because they are peasant weapons and suck regardless. But once you get into the "real" weapons, all weapons should be getting only 6 bonus stats (i.e. +3cut, +2 pierce, +1 speed) at +3.
Spathion and Side Sword are balanced with the Knightly Arming Sword and Italian Sword (respectively) when unloomed, but the extra bonus to thrust damage make the Spathion and Side Sword too good at Masterwork.
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I think 1handers are fine.
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Historically weapons like rapiers replaced typical medieval swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier) so it kinda proves that stab damage was found more useful than the cutting one.
But this only happened as armor fell out of fashion due to the emergence of firearms.
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But this only happened as armor fell out of fashion due to the emergence of firearms.
That's not entirely true. Swords starting be come more "thrust" oriented and less "cut" oriented as armor became thicker and more plate-bound in the 14th century. This is when it started.
Only once armor was becoming less popular (due to firearms) could these already specialized thrusting swords become lighter and thinner, thus the rapier.
Still, the rapier was largely a civilian/town weapon. Chopping swords stayed in fashion for a long time on the battlefield proper. Cutlasses could even be found on some WWII naval destroyers!
The evolution started long before firearms though.
Also, the side sword is not a true rapier. Side swords were a late medieval invention designed to specialize the thrust but have a serviceable cut as well.
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If you're inverse, yes...
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If you're inverse, yes...
Expanded Guide.
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Rebuff elite scimitar to where it was since one handed stabs are super OP.
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Wait, I know I already use inversed attack directions, but inversed blocking ? Doesn't make much sense to move the mouse up when you want to block down
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Is that if you have your Y axis inverted in general in games? I used to play like that in FPS's . Feels natural if you played any flying games
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Rebuff elite scimitar to where it was since one handed stabs are super OP.
HOLY SHIT 1H CAN ACTUALLY STAB NOW ZOMG THATS SO FUCKING OP!!!! NERF THE FUCK OUTTA THEM AGAIN DO IT NAO!!!!
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I think we simply arent used to the 1h stab. It sucks, but I dont think its that OP. I mean if you compared dedicated Greatswordusers(aka easy winmode players) with dedicated 1h players, a Gsworduser does 80% more stabs then 1h users. There are exeptions I know, but this is still the general outcome.
And to the OP? I don't think you know how physics really work and even if you did, what the fuck does any of this have to do with Crpg. Its a game...who cares.
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OP should get a shield lol
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Doesnt this thread kinda belong in the Chamber of Tears?
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Looks like it was moved to realism. I thought it was more of a balance topic myself.
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Then explain to me why can polearms and 2 handers happily swing through walls. Realism doesn't only go the way you want it to.
I just switched from using a Great Axe to a Great Bardiche, and I'm getting my swings caught all the time now, especially my overheads by something (or someone) behind me. Either it's not for all 2H weapons, or it's not that broken.
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I think we simply arent used to the 1h stab. It sucks, but I dont think its that OP. I mean if you compared dedicated Greatswordusers(aka easy winmode players) with dedicated 1h players, a Gsworduser does 80% more stabs then 1h users. There are exeptions I know, but this is still the general outcome.
And to the OP? I don't think you know how physics really work and even if you did, what the fuck does any of this have to do with Crpg. Its a game...who cares.
Just picked up Nodachi Today on EU_2, no wpf and being trash at blcoking, and is till managed to fend off a shielder with scottish sword.
Guys try to get used to it first, it is not that hard to defend against it.