cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 03:41:44 pm

Title: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 03:41:44 pm
What do you think of duels between friends when all your team run after the last survivor at the end of a round?

Ok, tk/th was not alowed by the rules, but dueling with a clanmate when you are 12 vs 1 was fine or not ?
2 of my friends was ban for tk by karasu yesterday because he make a duel during the time that the team kills the last hx of the other team, what do you think of that ? (link) (http://forum.melee.org/eu-(official)/aozaki-53626/)

Because karasu is not able to give a better explanation, I would like to know the opinion of players, other admins and devs.

For us (OdE clan), it is clearly an abuse of power, they do not bother anyone and anyway, the team would have won (12 vs 1 hx).
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Prpavi on September 16, 2013, 03:57:50 pm
I was mislead by the poll!  :mrgreen:

No 2 friends dueling in the same team tking each other is just unecessary. Dueling in general when 1v3 etc. situations I approve of.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 16, 2013, 04:03:25 pm
It is unlikely, but your team could need both you and the friend you're teamkilling. 
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 04:06:15 pm
I was mislead by the poll!  :mrgreen:

No 2 friends dueling in the same team tking each other is just unecessary. Dueling in general when 1v3 etc. situations I approve of.

Sure, it's unecessary, the duel was just for the fun, nothing more.
Everyone knows how annoying it is to run after a hx at the end of a round.

It is unlikely, but your team could need both you and the friend you're teamkilling. 

12 players vs one hx ?  I guarantee you that they did not need them at this time  :wink:
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on September 16, 2013, 04:09:59 pm
Well, you can discuss all day long... in the end of the day tking is still not allowed...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: F i n on September 16, 2013, 04:10:54 pm
In your case i guess its okay - at least not the worst type of teamkilling :).


BUT there are some "hidden" problems (and thats the reason why some admins do react) :

Teamkilling/-wounding is against the rules.

Also this might give new players an idea of teamkilling being tolerated - which it is not.

If everyone would tk his clanmates at the end of a round, it could sometimes result in a lost, but most likely in a delayed round.

Once started, teamkilling sometimes goes completely chaotic and spreads to other players.

And sometimes admins don't get that it's a clan intern, funny, trolling tk-duel.




Just stick to the rules when you face strangers - but never forget to troll a bit with your friends and to enjoy yourself.

IMO too serious players are worse for the game than trolls are.


Also, you can always ASK admins ingame if its gonna be tolerated or not.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2013, 04:16:46 pm
In your case i guess its okay - at least not the worst type of teamkilling :).


BUT there are some "hidden" problems (and thats the reason why some admins do react) :

Teamkilling/-wounding is against the rules.

Also this might give new players an idea of teamkilling being tolerated - which they're not.

If everyone would tk his clanmates at the end of a round, it could sometimes result in a lost, but most likely in a delayed round.

Once started, teamkilling sometimes goes completely chaotic and spreads to other players.

And sometimes admins don't get that it's a clan intern, funny, trolling tk-duel.




Just stick to the rules when you face strangers - but never forget to troll a bit with your friends and to enjoy yourself.

IMO too serious players are worse for the game than trolls are.


Also, you can always ASK admins ingame if its gonna be tolerated or not.
Sooooo never gonna go beyond trial <3
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 16, 2013, 04:17:21 pm
You can TK friends at end of the round.  That's generally accepted as there being one person left on one side.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: F i n on September 16, 2013, 04:27:16 pm
Sooooo never gonna go beyond trial <3

Choose one:

A good admin is:

using common sense       ( )

pinching inches               ( )

(Difficulty: EASY, Reward: +1)
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: vipere on September 16, 2013, 04:29:25 pm

Just stick to the rules when you face strangers - but never forget to troll a bit with your friends and to enjoy yourself.

IMO too serious players are worse for the game than trolls are.


This.

kick should be enough if admin is really pissed about it. 1 day ban is abuse, just warn before and it's ok.

Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2013, 04:29:31 pm
Choose one:

A good admin is:

using common sense       ( )

pinching inches               (x)

(Difficulty: EASY, Reward: +1)
<3
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: //saxon on September 16, 2013, 04:29:45 pm
Everyone know that there is nothing more annoying than running after a hx at the end of a round.

how is this annoying at all, if so your making yourself angry for chasing a bloody horsemen which you will never catch.

Tip: find a spot and alt- tab
Alternative: get a beer and wait for it to all blow over

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: F i n on September 16, 2013, 04:31:02 pm
You can TK friends at end of the round.  That's generally accepted as there being one person left on one side.

no.

it will and should still be punished!

But maybe not with the banhammer.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Teeth on September 16, 2013, 04:33:26 pm
Intentional teamkilling is against the rules, period. Which means that if you do it an admin has the right to punish you for it, regardless whether it influences the outcome of the round or not. Now me and my clanmates have 'occasionally' 'accidentally' killed eachother near the end of the round, and often admins have been witnesses and they let it fly, but I would not complain about it if one decided to ban for it. It's a risk I am willing to take.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: [ptx] on September 16, 2013, 04:39:36 pm
Obviously, one shouldn't be anal about enforcing the rules in such a situation, but, as Teeth said, you don't really get to complain about it.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2013, 04:43:15 pm
If the round is lost, ban them, whatever, if it's won, they sure as fuck shouldn't be punished for having fun instead of waiting for some asshole hx to eventually die in 2-4 minutes...
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: F i n on September 16, 2013, 05:16:28 pm
If the round is lost, ban them, whatever, if it's won, they sure as fuck shouldn't be punished for having fun instead of waiting for some asshole hx to eventually die in 2-4 minutes...


for me even a warning with a smileyface would be a punishment.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Leesin on September 16, 2013, 05:34:24 pm
Any kind of dueling on a battle server at the round end phase ( i.e the last few survivors ) is just stupid, whether or not it's against a team mate or one of the enemies, it's retarded.

 Why? well even dueling against your own team mate when it's 12 v 1, we have all seen that one guy kill them all, it happens quite often, so whilst he could have killed all your team mates you two were too busy slapping cocks together to help them kill the mad man. Or the most annoying one is when it's like 8 v 1 and they then all proceed to duel the 1 guy and all die, losing your multiplier. Yeah the duel server is that way bundle of stickss, we play the battle server because we want to play battle, not duel.

 I have had team mates intentionally getting in my way trying to make me hit them instead of the enemy because they're trying to force me to let the duel happen, that's beyond retarded but that's another topic.

But basically the rules state no team wounding or team killing whatsoever, you do it at your own risk regardless of the situation.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Thassadar on September 16, 2013, 05:51:39 pm
But ban me 2 days from all of EU servers for just wanted to be in the same case of Balza is that fair ? Without any warn ? Without any kick ?

I know I must know the rules but the admins aren't suppose to be the guardians of rules ? Instead of punish all people who are searching , badly I see, to have fun with some team friends ?

At least next time just say to me : Teutates, stop ths each others . Is Karasu is tired yet of his job for need to be so rude with people who never get ban once ?


As you want but I m totaly against this kind of reaction ... Whatever he did his job, no one ask him to do this so hard.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Miwiw on September 16, 2013, 05:51:51 pm
Would just go to eu3 to duel. It's much easier. No one will blame you for maybe losing a round then and admins wont mind. However if you do that on eu1, present admins wont hestitate to give a warning.

E. Thassadar, youre registered on forums for over two years. You could have at least once checked the rules. :P I personally don't mind those friendly duels or similar stuff at the end of the round though, but there are rules.

2 days sounds too much tho.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Rumblood on September 16, 2013, 06:04:49 pm
Give you people an inch, the next time you try for a mile. This time its 12vs1 you say is "good enough to duel", next time it is 6vs1 you say is "good enough to duel". After that it is whenever you feel like it and the excuse is "other admins don't punish for team duels!"
Rules is rules. Don't break them and you won't get banned.

-BanPappy
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 06:28:52 pm
Ok there is a risk, but it should not be so excessive.
As Fin say, a warning or even a kick would be largely enough.

Take one and two day ban because two friends want to have fun in a most boring moments of the game is completely retarded.

1 day ban for the hx for delaying would have been much more inteligent...


If the administration boils down to this, so set up an admin bot wich make auto kick for each teamhit and auto ban for each teamkill..   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Fartface on September 16, 2013, 06:51:28 pm
Who won?
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 07:00:11 pm
Who won?

our team
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Testicleez on September 16, 2013, 07:23:50 pm
Give you people an inch, the next time you try for a mile. This time its 12vs1 you say is "good enough to duel", next time it is 6vs1 you say is "good enough to duel". After that it is whenever you feel like it and the excuse is "other admins don't punish for team duels!"
Rules is rules. Don't break them and you won't get banned.

-BanPappy

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Rumblood on September 16, 2013, 08:40:34 pm

What do you think of duels between friends when all your team run after the last survivor at the end of a round?

Ok, tk/th was not alowed by the rules, but dueling with a clanmate when you are 12 vs 1 was fine or not ?
2 of my friends was ban for tk by karasu yesterday because he make a duel during the time that the team kills the last hx of the other team, what do you think of that ? (link) (http://forum.melee.org/eu-(official)/aozaki-53626/)

Because karasu is not able to give a better explanation, I would like to know the opinion of players, other admins and devs.

For us (OdE clan), it is clearly an abuse of power, they do not bother anyone and anyway, the team would have won (12 vs 1 hx).
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Osiris on September 16, 2013, 09:01:05 pm
my opinion is you sound like you belong on eu4 with "those people" :P
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: karasu on September 16, 2013, 09:09:31 pm
The rules exist for a reason.

   If you were ignorant of the rules (which wasn't the case) I could've been quite lenient about it, as I've been in several occasions, but when there are consistent complains in my steam chat in the exact moment and team speak (not to mention ingame) I can't let it slide. When you decide to willingly break the rules and ruin everybody else's fun, shit get's serious, and I was hired to act, not to be a phantom admin just for looks and goodies.

   As soon as someone decides to break the rules, all credibility is lost when trying to save face in public. This should be quite obvious even for the most IQ deprived (I'm not insulting anyone, stating a fact only).

  Thassadar was mature enough to approach me by PM in a "polite-enough" manner and I decided to lift the ban for both of you after 1 day. Only because of that approach.


This is the first time I write in this thread and the last. I suggest you carry on, too.

Cheers.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Fartface on September 16, 2013, 09:10:28 pm
my opinion is you sound like you belong on eu4 with "those people" :P
That place is no more! the mighty donkey god waved his little homosexual wand and cursed it away.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Prpavi on September 16, 2013, 09:17:18 pm
Well you got banned yes? For two days yes? You will not do it again, because being banned for 2 days ain't so kewl yes? Mission accomplished, good job Karasu!
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Clockworkkiller on September 16, 2013, 09:20:22 pm
all i heard was

"blah,blah,blah,blah,my friends were doing something that might not be allowed blah blah blah, why do admins enforce rules, blah blah blah, why am i not a unique sunflower"
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 10:00:23 pm
When you decide to willingly break the rules and ruin everybody else's fun, shit get's serious, and I was hired to act, not to be a phantom admin just for looks and goodies.

Except that we not ruin the fun for anyone..

You want to be an active admin, which is good. But you should also know what to do at what time.

When you say that we ruin the fun for everyone, you really do not know what it is spent.
This therefore means you do bans without knowing what it is spent. I do not know what everyone thinks, but I find it really disturbing to a person supposed to administer the game..

Know to be flexible when necessary should be a prerequisite to be admin.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Prpavi on September 16, 2013, 10:07:28 pm
Except that we not ruin the fun for anyone..

You want to be an active admin, which is good. But you should also know what to do at what time.

When you say that we ruin the fun for everyone, you really do not know what it is spent.
This therefore means you do bans without knowing what it is spent. I do not know what everyone thinks, but I find it really disturbing to a person supposed to administer the game..

Know to be flexible when necessary should be a prerequisite to be admin.


What is it spent to be exact?
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2013, 10:17:49 pm

What is it spent to be exact?

Precisely nothing..

They just made their duel and one of them is dead.
They did not bother anyone and the team won. I do not know what to imagine karasu on what is past, but there was nothing to punish apart fun if it is not allowed..
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Riddaren on September 16, 2013, 10:20:40 pm
I'm suprised so many voted against this. Maybe the poll wasn't clear enough.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: vipere on September 16, 2013, 10:34:43 pm
but when there are consistent complains in my steam chat in the exact moment and team speak (not to mention ingame) I can't let it slide.

There is players complaining about that ?!

They don't have enough fun playing the mod or what ?
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 16, 2013, 10:38:27 pm
It's not about players complaining, or people being uptight stiff bastards. 

The points have been laid clear as to why this is detrimental to game play. 

If you can't use your imagination to figure those out on your own, and you can't be arsed to read the reasoning's laid forth, that's nobodies problem but your own. 
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Osiris on September 16, 2013, 11:18:03 pm
I'm suprised so many voted against this. Maybe the poll wasn't clear enough.

thats the difference between eu1 and eu4. Eu1 people like to fight and win and generally stick by the rules when possible. Eu4 people like to mess around/troll/enforce their own set of rules (like forcing last man duels whats with that bs)
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 16, 2013, 11:24:56 pm
Too bad I don't live in Europe or I'd thoroughly enjoy couching the last enemy alive as he tries to duel.  Even better if a teammate is unarmed and is trying to punch him to death and I end up team killing him on accident.  Oh no, don't ctrl+m me!
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: pingpong on September 16, 2013, 11:50:05 pm
In the case of OP giving  bans is way too harsh, when its the same 1 HA, or HX  delaying every round  against so superior numbers (more than 5 enemies) obviously the HA/HX should be banned.
Proper way to do this in the future would be to 1. Warn the players doing something the admin does not approve aka last warning 2. Kick  3. If it continues regardless, THEN ban
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 17, 2013, 12:41:12 am
But what if the HA/HX pulls it off, though? I've seen Rohypnol pull that off for example, seen Duke of Disco and a few others too... Then you run into the sticky mess of Admins giving arbitrary definitions of "I don't think you can pull it off so just give up now."
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Fartface on September 17, 2013, 08:17:02 am
Most HA can´t aim for shit and spend the last 4 minutes riding around keeping a massive distance and shooting in what they think are enemies , while realy these fuckers are just shooting into thin air the entire goddamn 4 minutes. Hell if an HA does rack up 12 kills as last alive id be more than happy to watch it because it´s entertaining and exciting , but they will just spend the 4 fucking minutes doing absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: ARN_ on September 17, 2013, 08:23:37 am
thats the difference between eu1 and eu4. Eu1 people like to fight and win and generally stick by the rules when possible. Eu4 people like to mess around/troll/enforce their own set of rules (like forcing last man duels whats with that bs)
Yea eu4 is more fun, that's why we want it back :D
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: RobertOfDrugsley on September 17, 2013, 09:34:55 am
I'm suprised so many voted against this. Maybe the poll wasn't clear enough.

Yeah I didn't rightly know if the "problem" in the vote was the dueling or the admin intervention. Didn't stop me from voting though! Yay, democracy!
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Grumbs on September 17, 2013, 10:02:27 am
The best solution imo is to update the rules on how HA/HX's need to play when they are outnumbered at the end. They can legitimately waste everyone's time and still have no chance of winning and make people's gear break for no reason. ATM it falls under common sense/delaying for admins which leaves huge room for interpreting what to do. One admin might do one thing and one another, so not even ha's/hx's know what they should do. Most of the time there probably isnt even an admin to decide what do

There are solutions for updating the rules. Mine would be that you have to dismount if you didn't kill someone in the last 2 mins kinor so. There are other options too, thats just an idea.

The rule about tking needs to be enforced when possible though. Admins can use their judgement but the whole point of the strictness is to make sure people don't start thinking they can get away with it at all. Admins won't physically see probably 90% of teamkills but when they do they should probably make a point of punishing when its deliberate, even if its a duel. Its not up to players to decide when its ok to teamkill, and ive seen some crazy losses because people think they already won a round. It kind of sucks that it needs to be like that, since ive done it myself too, but its for the best I think. Most people cant judge 100% when their team have no chance to lose
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Fartface on September 17, 2013, 10:14:17 am
I actualy enjoy seeing good HA´s being last alive.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: peter_afca7 on September 17, 2013, 10:30:50 am
/remove\
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Kafein on September 17, 2013, 12:38:08 pm
It is unlikely, but your team could need both you and the friend you're teamkilling.

So what ?

"The team" is the supreme and absolute goal now.


Liberate yourself from the mental oppression of the multiplier, games are for fun. Winning and good play is only a part of that.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 17, 2013, 07:03:13 pm
So what ?

"The team" is the supreme and absolute goal now.


Liberate yourself from the mental oppression of the multiplier, games are for fun. Winning and good play is only a part of that.

The goal of battle is to kill the other team and/or raise MOTF.  That's the objective.  People get enjoyment out of many different aspects of the game, and choose to play for many different reasons.  That doesn't change the objective of the game mode.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Akynos on September 17, 2013, 08:14:46 pm
Woah woah woah, what's with all those yellow cubes folks? I didn't know chadz went on a recruiting frenzy ! :p

On topic: What admins said, I personnally never TK someone or if do, I use fists ( generally speaking you have less chances of getting kicked for TK if you use your fists as they are not taken as serious weapons)
So if you want to have a fight with a teammate, be a man and use your hands !
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Kelugarn on September 18, 2013, 05:08:36 am
I've seen plenty of rounds that come down to 10+ vs 1 where 6+ of those 10+ TK/TW each other to the point where that last man standing on the opposing team simply one-shots the remaining players and wins the round. Your "having fun" with your friends shouldn't result in the other 20/30/50+ people on your team losing the round because you decided to play grab-ass when you thought victory was in the bag.

It's an especially bad idea against a HX who could avoid damage while you teamkill your friends and then blow you a way in one or two shots for an easy win.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2013, 09:52:19 am
I've seen plenty of rounds that come down to 10+ vs 1 where 6+ of those 10+ TK/TW each other to the point where that last man standing on the opposing team simply one-shots the remaining players and wins the round. Your "having fun" with your friends shouldn't result in the other 20/30/50+ people on your team losing the round because you decided to play grab-ass when you thought victory was in the bag.

It's an especially bad idea against a HX who could avoid damage while you teamkill your friends and then blow you a way in one or two shots for an easy win.


Why are you blaming the duelling players ?

1) The game is horribly unfair in design as your reward depends on the success of the whole team instead of your own contribution.
2) If you really want to blame players, at least blame the dickhead delaying the round.

The goal of battle is to kill the other team and/or raise MOTF.  That's the objective.  People get enjoyment out of many different aspects of the game, and choose to play for many different reasons.  That doesn't change the objective of the game mode.

Yes that doesn't change the objective of the game mode, which is still not a compelling reason to follow it at all costs including fun.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2013, 03:42:14 pm
I've seen the light, you and your friends fun trumps the other 90 people in the server.

 :rolleyes:

My god man, use some critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Phew on September 18, 2013, 05:45:42 pm
Exclusively play siege like me, and you don't have to ever deal with the dilemma of how to suitably pass the time while you wait for a delaying HX to die.

And the preferred way to troll your clanmates on siege is to shield shove them off a high wall. Not technically teamwounding, and also more hilarious than duels.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Rumblood on September 18, 2013, 07:32:22 pm
2) If you really want to blame players, at least blame the dickhead delaying the round.

It isn't delaying when you are playing your class.

But let me get this straight, 12 players on a team, yet none of them have ANY range to kill that HX?

That means

1: All the threads about the vast hordes of ranged infesting the servers are out and out lies.
2: Ranged has been gimped so badly that they can't even survive until end round.
3: Those 12 melee couldn't be assed to protect their ranged until the HX/HA menace had been eliminated.
4: The remaining ranged suck balls.
5: 3-4 all true, However likely #3 is truest of all.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Grumbs on September 18, 2013, 07:47:21 pm
It isn't delaying when you are playing your class.

But let me get this straight, 12 players on a team, yet none of them have ANY range to kill that HX?

That means

1: All the threads about the vast hordes of ranged infesting the servers are out and out lies.
2: Ranged has been gimped so badly that they can't even survive until end round.
3: Those 12 melee couldn't be assed to protect their ranged until the HX/HA menace had been eliminated.
4: The remaining ranged suck balls.
5: 3-4 all true, However likely #3 is truest of all.

How you can draw all those conclusions with 1 example of a round end I don't know

1-3 can be eliminated by simply observing that this is not a typical round end scenario. Typically you don't have 1 HA/HX riding around against 12 melee with zero counters available. The HA/HX that does survive towards the end will have been focusing on killing his counters first (or melee/cav already killed them), then you get situations were you just have melee defending with shields or hiding behind stuff until the guy rides too close to someone, he dismounts (the gentleman's course), he gets shot or flags spawn.
Title: Re: End round dueling ?
Post by: Kafein on September 19, 2013, 10:20:16 am
It isn't delaying when you are playing your class.

Don't bend my words, I call that whatever I like. Even hiding behind a corner as melee counts as "playing your class", but it's still delaying, and still a douchebag move.

But let me get this straight, 12 players on a team, yet none of them have ANY range to kill that HX?

That means

1: All the threads about the vast hordes of ranged infesting the servers are out and out lies.
2: Ranged has been gimped so badly that they can't even survive until end round.
3: Those 12 melee couldn't be assed to protect their ranged until the HX/HA menace had been eliminated.
4: The remaining ranged suck balls.
5: 3-4 all true, However likely #3 is truest of all.

Actually about #3 I enjoy the idea that many melee and cav players don't defend ranged because they hope it will push them towards a class that doesn't ruin the game for the other players. Of course, they forget about the possibility of switching to HA or HX.

Anyway anectodal events are anectodal events. Ranged are mechanically harder to kill than melee, and in the general case there's a bigger proportion of ranged at the end of a round than at the beginning.