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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Butan on September 04, 2013, 04:14:15 pm

Title: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2013, 04:14:15 pm
This strat round has been around for enough time that market growth in every fiefs has reached a point where :


- S&D is piling up everywhere
- everyone has (or can have) millions of gold
- everyone is (or could be) on "cheat mode" and can have top gear for every battles (minus logistic problems)



But troops is still only player-based, so you can have billions upon billions of silver and gear, you need to have players behind you to field a reasonable force.
The alternative to that is the troops market : buying directly to players. At the moment the market is pretty frozen for multiple reasons so it is hard for small factions to have some fun.
Not saying it is bad, thats just the reality, and it prepares for my next argument.

I am in the "billion of gold/gear, no troops" category which is why I though of a way (if not balanced, at least innovative) to result in more possibilities for me, then everyone else too.



What if you could buy mercenary troops in fiefs, using S&D ?



Let's set a random crazy price of 1 mercenary troop = 50 silver
Final price will be 50 x fief S&D price + taxes (minimum of 5 = 250 silver per troop (which is average troop market price), maximum of 25 = 1250 silver per troop, with taxes multiplying from 1 to 2)

Everyone with enough silver in their pocket could go into a fief, and buy mercenaries. Dont expect to get away with a big 10 000 troops unarmed dot on the map though.




Good/Bad effects :


- More available manpower = more stacking (modify the 1/3 rule, remove the old recruitment system completely)

- Controlling fiefs would mean controlling a source of troops = more incentive to conquer and hold territories (over-extension and S&D management will become critical again)

- Economical power would boost Military power = more incentive to have active multi-purpose caravans players (and more power to solo players and opportunities to rebel!)

- Mercenary market and goods market using same ressource = choose between troops and gear (more troops for less gear, or more gear for less troops)
= less silver for faction that would use the mercenary market (indirectly solve the overwhelming silver/gear situation that creates shiny armies for everyone)

- Creates a new way to have troops mid-game = completely changes the manpower generation and geopolitical strenght of factions (Good/Bad depending on viewpoints)

- Easy to steal S&D for mercenaries = armies could be raised anywhere in an instant and would be able to cripple an empire that is not micro-managed a lot (add silver view on dots, add silver stealing on kills, add ways to manage your S&D easily)

- Easy to exploit = go into a fief with lots of weapon crates and silver and 100 men, buy for 5000 mercenary troops and instantly attack the fief you bough it from, and other crazy situations (would be somewhat cool actually...)

- .....

- Other things I could have typed in red or green but did not think of  :P




Random crazy idea #47, over!





(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Strudog on September 04, 2013, 04:29:34 pm
Sounds like a good idea, but i like the idea of Having a specific Manpower, which can be increased by S&D, so 1 S&D = 5 man power (dont really know the numbers)

But if anyone of you had played EU4 its a very significant matter in when going to war, if you have no man power, you cannot raise the support you need if you lose your main armies. IT also stop people from creating an infinite amount of troops
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 04, 2013, 05:07:35 pm
I like.

But:
Mercs need to cost more army upkeep(to balance out their use), otherwise people would just spam Prosperity and stack tons of troops
Mercs should not benefit from garrison upkeep(IE it's same whether on a person or not)
Needs to be balanced around Prosperity levels of 800-1000. IE 1000 prosperity(=1000 S&D a day) should give 1/4 of that in troops. So as to not be to Prosperity stacked.
Would need to be properly balanced compared to normal troop gain(like what I posted above)

Unless you remove CRPG from the equation, but then that removes the REASON why it's there. Playing crpg is what gives you troops, and that shouldn't change, to to much.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 05:17:50 pm
How about no?

It's actually a really bad idea IMO (to be able to buy troops, when troops are already more plentiful than the money out there to equip them). 

If anything is going to be done with troops, it should be this:

it takes "x" amount of production points to buy "y" food, which can support up to "z" # of troops.  You should also be able to transfer the "food" value from one fief to another (so from a village to one of your castles).  This would limit the amount of troops that a fief can have garrisoned at any given time. 

Yes people will just store more troops on themselves, but that will help lower the amount of troops stacked in fiefs (making them more realistic troop numbers to be able to attack with), and it will cost people more money to have garrisons of troops on players rather than in fiefs.

Hell I'm going to post my own suggestion thread:  http://forum.melee.org/strategus-general-discussion/suggestion-create-%27food-stores%27-that-control-how-large-a-garrison-can-be/new/#new
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 04, 2013, 05:19:08 pm
It's actually a really bad idea IMO (to be able to buy troops, when troops are already more plentiful than the money out there to equip them). 

Actually, no. GOLD is more plentiful than troops. Just troops accumulate when not actively fighting.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 05:21:22 pm
Sure if there's 1 troop for 1 gold.  But I'm talking shiny armies, I think there's more troops out there than gold to equip each troop with shiny gear.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 04, 2013, 05:40:34 pm
Sure if there's 1 troop for 1 gold.  But I'm talking shiny armies, I think there's more troops out there than gold to equip each troop with shiny gear.

Cause we stockpile troops. If they were ALWAYS used, then no. Gold is infinite, troops finite. Always been that way. Gold is easier than troops to amass.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Aderyn on September 04, 2013, 05:57:19 pm
sorry to burst your bubble huseby but it's true. Troops are more abundant overall than gold.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 05:59:25 pm
So most factions have more gold available than to equip every troop with shiny gear?  Maybe EU, but not in NA.  And I still think it's skeptical on the EU side (I've seen coalition gold and it's amazing, but I still don't think they'd have enough to make every troop "shiny")
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on September 04, 2013, 06:02:44 pm
So most factions have more gold available than to equip every troop with shiny gear?  Maybe EU, but not in NA.  And I still think it's skeptical on the EU side (I've seen coalition gold and it's amazing, but I still don't think they'd have enough to make every troop "shiny")

Oh we have
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 06:03:50 pm
Oh we have

Well if that's the case, than this version of strategus is even more pathetic than I previously thought.  So people have 100,000+ troops and they can equip them with shiny gear, but they aren't using those troops for anything other than stacking fiefs?

You guys make me sick.  Strategus is dead.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2013, 06:48:42 pm
Maybe NA isnt like that for now, but you will undoubtedly catch up. Like troop stacking, silver stacking is an issue that appears some time after the round begins with the current game rules.

We sure need ways to balance everything out and this is not the only idea that can go toward this. I think food stores (plateau for troops) are good, and mercenary troops (troops<->S&D) are good. We could also talk about having increased PP cost for prosperity (plateau for S&D). It would have a good synergy if done well.


Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 07:01:43 pm
Yeah I can get on board with S&D spending to buy troops, but I think it's skirting the issue.

The issue being that there is no incentive or reason for people to attack anyone else on the map.  So people are cold-war strategy playing of stocking as many troops into castles as possible.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2013, 07:57:30 pm
I think if the 1/3 rule allowed siege of any fiefs with a good army

+

food stores/ prosperity caps/ modified recruitment system

=

you would have every reason to try taking as many fiefs as you can, since they would both be needed to stack troops/silver and S&D.



Today, even if you have only 1 fief, you have as much power as a faction which has 100, if you have the same number of players farming troops, caravaning a bit and increased your prosperity/taxes a lot. So why expanding ? Even though just the though of expansion/battles (and subsequent drama and hatred) is enough to motive most to raise armies, the 1/3 rule fucks everything up anyway.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Tomas on September 04, 2013, 09:38:55 pm
Narra has over 11m silver in it alone.  Do you really want us to be able to buy another 15k troops to stack in there with the 22k we already have?

Idea has merit though and there might be a way to make it work, just can't think of one now.



Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: woody on September 04, 2013, 10:14:39 pm
Hate this idea. Individual players matter too little already.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: woody on September 04, 2013, 10:18:51 pm
Just one point I do agree with with Butan said Fiefs should count more - maybe each village recruits at a certain rate if you want, each castle faster and city faster again? But with some sort of upkeep to encourage factions to use the troops rather than just stockpile?
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 04, 2013, 10:38:44 pm
Just brainstorming here, could you give troops an age?  And they die after 6 months?   :twisted:
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Harpag on September 05, 2013, 11:06:38 am
Kurwa mać... during last three months on EU side of map we lost 393.862 tickets and our present  garrison is 1,016,482 - so while maintaining the current pace of fighting and assuming that there will be no new tics (!) statistically we have tickets for 7.75  month. Until that everyone have a lot of gold and devs don't give a fuck about strat and our tears, so stop making sugestion threads - let's keep a little bit of common sense and start fighting :!:
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Corsair831 on September 05, 2013, 01:07:05 pm
Kurwa mać... during last three months on EU side of map we lost 393.862 tickets and our present  garrison is 1,016,482 - so while maintaining the current pace of fighting and assuming that there will be no new tics (!) statistically we have tickets for 7.75  month. Until that everyone have a lot of gold and devs don't give a fuck about strat and our tears, so stop making sugestion threads - let's keep a little bit of common sense and start fighting :!:

coalition does not fight. coalition is scared. mercs are scared. templars are scared. we are winning. it's a shame that in this version of strat our huge territory gains count for absolutely nothing.

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Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Erasmas on September 05, 2013, 05:47:45 pm
What if you could buy mercenary troops in fiefs, using S&D ?

So - buy either gear or troops. In best case scenario you have less gear but some troops to wear it. In theory it is a nice idea; I assume it aims in the increase of significance of small clans.

But. (and that is a somewhat brutal "but"):

There was a reason why devs tied strat and crpg by adding strategus ticks. I believe the intention was to limit the amount of "dead souls" aka inactive players that still farmed tickets in fiefs, cause that lead to situation where one-man clan could get a great power on the map having some dead accounts (read: it limited reason for accountsharing  :rolleyes:). The idea was to add a human factor to strategus. To draw more people to crpg. To make the clans "real" in the sense of usefullness of individual members and their contribution to Strat operations. This was a single change that made a very significant difference in how strat is played and the most important one ever - imho at least.

What Butan suggests somewhat reverses the trend but instead of farming tickets by players you could buy them. Considering that everyone complain that there is a hugh overproduction of gold over tickets (which I - being large clan member that actually fights - don't agree with; if you have any surplus of silver just send it to us; we will make a good use of it :D)  the idea looks cool. My only question is:

Why a small clan should have more power (or more fiefs) if it is unable to fill in the roster or farm ticktes cause it lacks guys who actually play? 

You dont have enough troops? Get more men to play with you and act as a single organisation. If you cant, it means you are unworthy of getting more on the map.

You dont have enough money? It means you have a lot of players that DO play crpg so they can steal, kill, and sneak around, so trust me, eventually you will carve out some space on the map for your team. Then you will get more money through the fiefs you own and through the (fucked up) game mechanics that allows to earn more and more, but the ticket production is roughly constant so go and fight 

I'll probably repeat myself but... what we need is an incentive for players to start fighting. I dont believe in change of human mentality (yes, the mentality of all of you, you lazy bitches  :D). Instead I believe in behavioral training. Make troops stacking very expensive, or harmful in other way, so we have a lot more battles. More battles mean weaker large clans. Besides, more voulnerable fiefs will be more accesible to new clans. More voulnerable fiefs will require a lot more sense of startegy from the leaders. And trust me - war is expensive, so when people strat fighting they will quickly find out that earning money tuo support the war  effort is not that easy.... As Harpag rightly stated the current situation is long overdue. And I agree that current garrison/gold situation is sick.

To limit the disproportion between large and small clans it would be enough to put a cap (high enough but at least not unlimited as it currently is) on earnings from your current fiefs. That would give an incentive .... to fight for new ones :) 

And there is one more thing to consider... large clans with large territory that do not spend the gold on war and upkeep but stack troops could buy even more troops to stack them ... All in all - as much as I respect your creativity Butan - NO, it is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: Jack1 on September 05, 2013, 06:29:44 pm
In the sense of troops from s+d

Make it so you can buy troops after say 5000 s+d. Then to keep your enemies from recruiting you just bust their economy.

In erasmas's case if adding more upkeep costs

Make a faction wide upkeep per troops? It would make things such as the many clans in FCC break into their own labs again. They would be more willing (in my mind) to bust away from alliances and make new buddies, constantly changing the map. In the case of the grey order it would force you guys to have lower troops in your fiefs and more battles regularly. Then small factions would be able to stack more troops/player.

Such as if the faction has over 15,000 troops the upkeep is at like 2 gold per day. No more 100k troops in your faction or your going to go bankrupt while small factions can stack more troops/players.

Wrote this real fast so sorry if its confusing
Title: Re: Random crazy idea #47 : troops for S&D
Post by: En_Dotter on September 06, 2013, 03:14:35 am
The problem isnt with the troop number (look at the fiefs... 10s of ks of troops), the problem is safety. You are way safer in a fief than when you attack. You need to do the 1/3 rule and lose a lot of troops not cus they die but cus the mechanic is bad. Then you need to besiege something. Attackers are always in worse position (as it should be). But then there is no benefit in losing 10-20k troops to get a castle or a town. Well there is a bit of a benefit, but that benefit might be noticed in a few months or even a year... Change siege mechanics and other stuff related to attacking to promote sieges and demote garrison hoarding...
More troops would only bring bigger static behavior of players... I would just buy tons of troops and i would (already do) have enough gear to support them and money. And lets see how someone could take a fief from me (legaly). Its silly rly... I say no to troop hyper-production...