Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Angantyr on August 30, 2013, 12:50:53 pm
Works well to make people sign papers so you can prosecute them for terrorism and win 'the numbers game' ('choose between 10 more years here with gruesome torture and seeing your daughter raped in front of your eyes or admit to something we all know you haven't done and we'll give you 20 in another prison and it looks like we're actually doing our job' - this is close to many cases in Guantanamo, which the tribunal of US juries have mostly themselves called a farce before leaving in protest) and maintain the illusion of moral justification. Other than that, no, there's pretty much consensus in the scientific world and among intelligence specialists that it doesn't.
The numbers game is mostly the case in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there's also the fear factor. For example during the Vietnam War the Phoenix Program was mainly to terrorize and spread fear among the civilian population.
Quote
The Phoenix Program (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Phụng Hoàng, a word related to fenghuang, the Chinese phoenix) was a program designed, coordinated, and executed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), United States special operations forces, special forces operatives from the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV),[1] and the Republic of Vietnam's (South Vietnam) security apparatus during the Vietnam War.
Original unissued patch The Program was designed to identify and "neutralize" (via infiltration, capture, terrorism, torture, and assassination) the infrastructure of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF or Viet Cong).[2][3][4][5] Historian Douglas Valentine states that "Central to Phoenix is the fact that it targeted civilians, not soldiers".[6] The major two components of the program were Provincial Reconnaissance Units (PRUs) and regional interrogation centers. PRUs would kill and capture suspected VC. They would also capture civilians who were thought to have information on VC activities. Many of these civilians were then taken to the interrogation centers where some were tortured in an attempt to gain intelligence on VC activities in the area.[7] The information extracted at the centers was then given to military commanders, who would use it to task the PRU with further capture and assassination missions.[7] The program was in operation between 1965 and 1972, and similar efforts existed both before and after that period. By 1972, Phoenix operatives had "neutralized" 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom 26,369 were killed.[8] A Saigon government document states that, under Phoenix, 40,994 suspected enemy civilians were assassinated and another 19,257 were convicted, from 1968-1971.[9]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program
If you watch or read some of the testimonies of the agents connected to this program (plenty of documentaries around) you will find that suspicions on which grounds torture and murder were conducted were mostly manufactured or they simply randomly chose people in villages (a lot of women and young girls, for reasons I'll let your imagination determine).
Acts commited included letting women starve to death in tiger cages, drilling holes through people's skulls, raping people with snakes, removing eyeballs with spoons and hammering nails so far into the ears of victims that they came out on the other side.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Sir_Hans on August 30, 2013, 01:20:09 pm
I think torture works better as a form of revenge, rather than a tool in interrogation. But that's not to say it's completely useless in an interrogation.
The main mistake is using torture in an interrogation to "look for" what's someone is hiding. Which leads to a lot of torturing of people who really don't have "valuable" information, so they start making up information at random or saying anything they can find to make the torture stop.
I think it's only useful when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the victim is hiding/withholding knowledge that you need to extract. Rather than using to to check if they have information to hide/withhold.
That said, I think torture should always be considered a crime, whether its done by an individual person, a government agency, or a private facility funded by the government. It's like the ultimate heinous act you can deploy on your fellow man/woman/child.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Angantyr on August 30, 2013, 01:27:04 pm
It is interesting that torture is often in modern times defended by the 'ticking bomb' scenario, made popular by propaganda series such as 24 hours.
A scenario which is solely based in imagination, however, with the historical record bereft of any such circumstances.
Btw, as if the world didn't already seem completely on its head:
Quote
Michael Chertoff, the Homeland Security Chief under Bush, declared that 24 "reflects real life", John Yoo, the former Justice Department lawyer who produced the torture memos cited Bauer in support while Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia went further, "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles... He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?".[6] One of the shows' creators stated: Most terrorism experts will tell you that the ‘ticking time bomb’ situation never occurs in real life, or very rarely. But on our show it happens every week.[1] The show uses the same techniques that are used by the US against alleged Al-Qaeda suspects. U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, and others, objected to the central theme of the show—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—as it had an adverse effect on the training of actual American soldiers by advocating unethical and illegal behavior. As Finnegan said: The kids see it, and say, 'If torture is wrong, what about "24"?' He continued, The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.[1]
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Dezilagel on August 30, 2013, 01:38:28 pm
I think that torture is definitively not as effective as those who practice it would like to think.
If you have to resort to physical violence to break a person you've already lost. You're never going to get nearly as good quality of information as from someone who is truly cooperative. All you're going to accomplish, apart from maybe satisfying some perverted lust for power over another, is getting confusing and misleading information from someone who is at his or her most desperate. (who is still your enemy and probably holds greater pride than you)
It is a disgusting war crime which clearly highlights some of the darkest facets of human nature. And it's still practiced today, even in some "civilized" countries.
Bleach.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Kafein on August 30, 2013, 02:08:15 pm
Torture is only ever going to be "useful" as a means to threaten people into doing or saying things that you want them to say, no matter what it happens to be, true or false.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: LordBerenger on August 30, 2013, 02:14:32 pm
*Mandatory anti-US comment from some random Anti-American European brainwashed by the Arab immigrants*
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on August 30, 2013, 02:31:33 pm
*Mandatory anti-US comment from some random Anti-American European brainwashed by the Arab immigrants*
Nice try. Now get back to the gym, and let the smart people talk, will you?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 30, 2013, 02:42:18 pm
However, if there is a way to (almost) immediately verify the information, does torture work then? If you have, say, a safe in the same room as the person you're torturing and you know they know the code, and you can try the code immediately. Is torture effective in that scenario and similar scenarios, where you can verify the information and then continue the torture if you were lied to?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on August 30, 2013, 02:46:52 pm
Well, how can you be sure the person actually knows the code?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Overdriven on August 30, 2013, 02:56:07 pm
Although it's dirty if possible I'd have thought some form of black mail would be preferable to any torture. Torture may seem like a quicker way I suppose but it's undeniably a disgusting, and far from reliable means of getting information. Everyone has some form of leverage that can be exacted through blackmail. And although again it can result in unreliable information, I'd have said that's a much better way of going about it if you have to.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 30, 2013, 02:59:39 pm
Well, how can you be sure the person actually knows the code?
Irrelevant. Assume the premise is true. Think of it as a thought experiment.
Although, even if we were to treat it as a real scenario, I don't see how your question is relevant. Are you suggesting that it would be impossible to know the person has the code? I can think of millions of ways to be reasonably sure, about as sure as you can be of anything. More importantly, would it matter if you knew about them knowing since you can instantly verify their answers?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on August 30, 2013, 03:02:35 pm
However, if there is a way to (almost) immediately verify the information, does torture work then? If you have, say, a safe in the same room as the person you're torturing and you know they know the code, and you can try the code immediately. Is torture effective in that scenario and similar scenarios, where you can verify the information and then continue the torture if you were lied to?
I know one thing:
If I would have to extract information from an average person ( not some sort of medieval-religious-martyr-fanatic-type ), and i would have one week, and a this kit:
I would know all i want :) It would not be a question of intensity of pain, it would be a question of finally ending the agony of a biological mass, that was "a person" at some point far far away, in another galaxy...
Although, there might be few well trained, astronaut level of psychological stability individuals, who might be able to go in a "meditation mode", and just keep screaming like animal for the whole duration, until their brain would give up, or keep repeating well learned misinformation. But even then, there might be a surgical way of removing the parts of the brain, that are responsible for control of certain processes, that would turn a human into a vegetable, without damaging their speech and memory.
EDIT:
Now, after re-reading what i wrote, i admit that it sounds a bit too edgy... Well, I am not an "evil" guy, but i have seen one of my close family members turning into a vegetable in a duration of few years time ( desease + medication ), i know from a personal experience, how much one's brain effects one's personality - so I presume, that what we call "reason", "logic" and "willpower" is close to NOTHING, against the biology and "forces of nature"... As sad as it is, there must be only this much a brain can take, afterwards it is ... hard even to describe.. but not human anymore
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Turboflex on August 30, 2013, 03:38:37 pm
Guys like KSM deserve to be waterboarded a few hundred times.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Torost on August 30, 2013, 04:44:16 pm
Torture is nasty stuff.
The real problem is that there is no real downside to using it if you are cold as ice, have no compassion. It will prob taint your reputation should it be known, since we have UN treatys , geneva convention etc... Like Gitmo , you just reclassify what an enemy combatant is. Redefine what is torture... google some of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfelts quotes on the matter..
Torture works : you get information of varying degree of importance + a broken person. torture fails or person didnt know anything : you get nothing + a broken person.
If you do not care about people suffering there is no downside.
the only effective counter is I see is either total silence, not saying one word. Or just ramble away with excessive amounts of hard to verify info, so that should you slip up later it will be hard to know what is real and what is false.
Either way. if you find yourself in this situation... you are pretty much fucked..
The most you can really strive for is to remain silient for x amount of time , so that those affected may have a chance to notice that you are missing and can take measures to negate the effect of the spill.
Without any numbers or fact, I suspect most tortured people have not had any vital information, that it has been used just to punish and degrade. Much like rape is used as a weapon to break an entire population. Sadistic peoples playground.
Psyops, to spread fear and deter people from engaging in activities you do not want them to do.
/topofmyheadrant
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 30, 2013, 06:06:13 pm
Torture works for inflicting pain on individuals and creating psychological fear in their comrades. It also creates enemies as well, and puts your own people in potentially more harmful situations if they are captured.
As far as gathering useful information, does torture work? Maybe, maybe not. Someone may tell you everything they know, but they are going to say whatever they can to get the torture to stop, so you really can't be sure if it was truthful or not.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Clockworkkiller on August 30, 2013, 10:34:34 pm
i agree with torture as a forum of extreme (very extreme) form of punishment, Example: serial killer just stabbed 12 pregnant women and let them bleed to death, then multilated their bodies in a case like that? fuck yea, make the bastard scream and cry like a bitch, he doesnt deserve a quick death penalty, or life in a prison.
but for anything else other than a situation similar to that above? hell no.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: EponiCo on August 30, 2013, 11:50:34 pm
However, if there is a way to (almost) immediately verify the information, does torture work then? If you have, say, a safe in the same room as the person you're torturing and you know they know the code, and you can try the code immediately. Is torture effective in that scenario and similar scenarios, where you can verify the information and then continue the torture if you were lied to?
If you are talking from a purely self serving perspective than it's fairly likely to work. Or when it doesn't the cost isn't too high. But unless you are doing the torturing yourself you have to be pretty sure you can trust the torturer. Because it's probably quite likely someone with no objection to torture has no objection to cross you and say the guy said he didn't know until the very end and making off with the money. If you are talking from the standpoint of police, you are also risking to be lied to. If they tortured someone without results, they'd have a large incentive to cover that up. A confession is easy to get and the subject has been isolated anyway. Ignoring the part about some random guy just being picked up from the street and fucked forever which is exactly what police should prevent it might also mean the case is closed and the true criminal/terrorist is free to plan his next crime.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 01:33:50 am
The question was never about whether torture is acceptable or not, but if it works or not, which most people seem to be missing.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Jarold on August 31, 2013, 01:46:28 am
It would make me talk, but I don't know anything useful so it would be ineffective. So your simple soldier/person would probably know as much as the person interrogating. It only might work on very high value people.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Christo on August 31, 2013, 02:03:40 am
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Lars on August 31, 2013, 02:54:50 am
However, if there is a way to (almost) immediately verify the information, does torture work then? If you have, say, a safe in the same room as the person you're torturing and you know they know the code, and you can try the code immediately. Is torture effective in that scenario and similar scenarios, where you can verify the information and then continue the torture if you were lied to?
If you are sure that the person/people you plan to torture got the information/s you are looking for( or the safe's code in this case), i think it would work, on condition that the tortured person/people is/ are convinced (or hope) that the torture stops when they realease the correct information. If they suspect/are sure that the torture will continue, even after they tell the info you are looking for, they would probably keep lying, maybe even the weaker minded people/with low tolerance to pain would keep telling false infos.
Why would torture work *in this case? Torture would work, because i think (almost) everyone has a breaking point, soon or later he/she/they will tell you what they know *assuming that you are sure they know the safe's code or the info/s you are looking for.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on August 31, 2013, 04:48:06 am
Irrelevant. Assume the premise is true. Think of it as a thought experiment.
Although, even if we were to treat it as a real scenario, I don't see how your question is relevant. Are you suggesting that it would be impossible to know the person has the code? I can think of millions of ways to be reasonably sure, about as sure as you can be of anything. More importantly, would it matter if you knew about them knowing since you can instantly verify their answers?
Of course, you can exclude it from a thought experiment, but it is the most important question in a real scenario. Because even if they know it, they will tell you they don't at first. And even if they don't know it, they will tell you they do later. How will you decide which is true, and how long will you try to extract the real code? It's impossible.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 05:23:23 am
Of course, you can exclude it from a thought experiment, but it is the most important question in a real scenario. Because even if they know it, they will tell you they don't at first. And even if they don't know it, they will tell you they do later. How will you decide which is true, and how long will you try to extract the real code? It's impossible.
It's entirely possible for you to know beforehand that they know the code. And you would not have to decide which is true. Everyone has a breaking point. You would torture the person who you think knows the code until you were reasonably sure they weren't holding out on you anymore. Sure, sucks to be them if they never really did know the code, but it would still get results, although not quite with the same accuracy as if you were sure they knew the code. But it wouldn't be that much less reliable, either: you just have to continue the torture past what would reasonably be someone's breaking point.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Rumblood on August 31, 2013, 06:14:55 am
Drugs are more effective manipulators of the human psyche.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Kalam on August 31, 2013, 08:16:47 am
Drugs are more effective manipulators of the human psyche.
This. I believe mental torture- such as controlling a person's circadian rhythm and psychological games are more effective than torture when it comes to gleaning information. These take time, though, and from my understanding, the rule of thumb in war is two to three days before the information is considered useless. I would not expect the average soldier to have anything important in the way of information except standard tactics, procedure, and cultural insight. You can get the latter, which I believe might be more important in the long term, from pop culture and friendly relationships and I'm sure most enemies would figure out how you operate in a year if it's uniform- in the case of developed militaries, this is always the case, is it not?
I can tell you it takes at least five years to change the tactics of a large, modern military.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Sir_Hans on August 31, 2013, 10:45:56 am
Drugs are more effective manipulators of the human psyche.
This is very true.
Let me go on an off-topic tangent.
People dosed from this drug have been known to willingly empty bank accounts or help a perpetrator rob the victims own home... Seems like a complete loss of self control and reasoning... What I've always wondered, is what happens if you dose someone with this drug then give them a handgun and tell them to kill someone? And if it actually would work in that kind of scenario... How many assassinations/terrorist-type events have been attempted or perpetuated by the use of this drug on unsuspecting victims? Kind of scary to think about.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on August 31, 2013, 12:55:22 pm
It's entirely possible for you to know beforehand that they know the code. And you would not have to decide which is true. Everyone has a breaking point. You would torture the person who you think knows the code until you were reasonably sure they weren't holding out on you anymore. Sure, sucks to be them if they never really did know the code, but it would still get results, although not quite with the same accuracy as if you were sure they knew the code. But it wouldn't be that much less reliable, either: you just have to continue the torture past what would reasonably be someone's breaking point.
That is exactly the problem. What is a person's breaking point? How can you ever be sure they are not holding back anymore?
And no, you can't ever know for sure if a person knows something you don't.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 05:44:54 pm
That is exactly the problem. What is a person's breaking point? How can you ever be sure they are not holding back anymore?
And no, you can't ever know for sure if a person knows something you don't.
That is not a problem. If you torture someone for two years in the most horrible ways imaginable, you can be pretty damn sure they're not holding back a code to a safe from you.
And yes you can. Obviously. Why couldn't you? That's akin to saying "the sky is green!"
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Rumblood on August 31, 2013, 06:13:13 pm
And yes you can. Obviously. Why couldn't you? That's akin to saying "the sky is green!"
Really? Well I KNOW that you know the secret to cold fusion and if you don't tell us RIGHT NOW we are going to start breaking every bone in your body until you tell us what it is! :lol:
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 06:43:03 pm
Really? Well I KNOW that you know the secret to cold fusion and if you don't tell us RIGHT NOW we are going to start breaking every bone in your body until you tell us what it is! :lol:
You could try, certainly.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Malaclypse on August 31, 2013, 07:14:21 pm
This thread is torture and I'm not telling you guys shit.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Clockworkkiller on August 31, 2013, 07:18:19 pm
crpg is torture
truth
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Jarold on August 31, 2013, 08:38:01 pm
No use arguing with Xant, he won't accept his defeat.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 08:45:52 pm
If no one can be right or wrong about the subject then why are we even talking about if it works?
Just because the answer isn't 'yes' or 'no' doesn't mean 'no, except in some very specific situations' or 'yes, when done using a specific method for a certain situation' isn't worth discussing.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on August 31, 2013, 10:49:54 pm
If no one can be right or wrong about the subject then why are we even talking about if it works?
That is not the correct conclusion to draw. There is right and there is wrong. But out-arguing the other side doesn't make you right. It doesn't change the facts and you could be wrong even if your argument is stronger than someone else's. But nobody in this thread has even specified their position accurately, which is what I've been trying to slowly work towards. First you have to know what you are arguing about ("If a tree falls in the forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound?", you can argue about it endlessly if you do not define "sound", so: "Should 'sound' be defined as meaning only acoustic vibrations, or only auditory experience?").
As a result of the media's anti-torture campaign (which isn't necessarily wrong) people seem to have adopted the position that torture never works, which is plain wrong. It's counter-intuitive and there are plenty of examples in history of torture producing results. A lot of the "proof" against torture is focused around Guantanamo Bay: but in reality, it only proves that the torture used in Guantanamo Bay does not work in Guantanamo Bay, not that torture in general is ineffective. For one, the torture used in GB is very mild -- ethically wrong? Maybe, certainly perhaps, but that is beyond the point, it's still very far from what most people visualize when they hear "torture". Then there are other factors unique to GB and the political situation in USA to consider that do not apply universally.
So my first goal was to see if it was thought that torture never works. Some people seem to think so. So I proposed a scenario where torture would be highly effective to see what the reaction to that would be. I've yet to receive a single rational reply to it, beyond "but how can you be sure they know the code?!" (if this is REALLY puzzling anyone, say so, and I'll give you a scenario where you would know -- I've not yet done so because I wanted to hear why it was thought it's impossible to know that someone knows something, so as to avoid the other person moving the goalposts after my explanation.)
The question, then, is this: what are people's real positions? It can't be "torture doesn't work", it does. However that does not mean it is the most effective form of acquiring information -- it isn't, but sometimes it can be the only one, in which case any information - or even the chance of acquiring information - is better than nothing. Granted, that is debatable, it might be against your ethics to ever torture someone, but I would have to disagree with those ethics. Regardless, the most important aspect of this - and any - argument is to clarify what is actually meant. Are we talking about whether or not torture is ethical, whether it's effective, whether it's the most effective form of acquiring information, whether it's always going to work, whether it's never going to work or if it's effective, then in what scenarios is it effective? And so on. Personally, I started out just wanting to see what the general opinion of the subject was, and after seeing that it wasn't very well defined, attempted to figure out where exactly people stood by proposing the "thought experiment."
And for the record, I do think drugs/mental manipulation are a better option, if available and practical. Less straight-forward to resist and if they don't work, you can always move on to Plan B.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Kalam on August 31, 2013, 11:38:36 pm
But nobody in this thread has even specified their position accurately, which is what I've been trying to slowly work towards.
I think I answered this glibly, so I'll reiterate: the effectiveness of torture is context specific. I assumed that you meant torture as it applies to intelligence and criminal justice. The question, then, becomes 'what kind of problem do I need to solve (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/presence_puzzle.html)?'. Is it a puzzle, or is it a mystery? A matter of acquiring simple data, or solving a complex 'why' type question?
If we return to your example, where we're just looking for a code and there's somewhere to input this code to see if works or not, then yes, I believe torture (not senseless abuse) informed by interrogative techniques can yield the answer.
If the problem, however, is a mystery (as it often is in situations where torture is defended as 'justified') instead of a puzzle then I don't see how torture would be useful. Hell, I think Reddit (this is just an example; any large group of people working together in an informed, logical manner would work) going on a hunt might be more useful there.
Concerning ethics: you can try and play actuary with lives and morality, but the truth is, I don't really care about how anyone is treated unless it may one day affect me and the people I love. That's what you've got to deal with, there. If I approved of torture, would torture one day be used on me or my friends and family?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2013, 12:17:08 am
I was talking about torture in general, as a concept, not its application in intelligence/criminal justice. You need to determine whether or not torture works at all before talking about its applications in specific circumstances, or the ethics of it. Since if it's broken as a concept (for example, if humans had an in-built mechanism that made them explode once certain pain thresholds are reached - yes, an absurd example, but I'm having a hard time thinking of plausible alternate Universes where torture as a concept just doesn't work, yet some people seem to be claiming just that) there's no need to even discuss it further.
It's a much harder subject if you accept the premise that torture works and is effective in certain circumstances and start talking about when it's okay for government agencies to do it. In general, I agree with what you say. And because of that, I wouldn't personally want any law enforcement agencies to have torture as a tool in their toolbox, all it takes is some "War on Terrorism" to blur the lines and then it might be used on me or my friends and family. Military is a different beast, though.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Kampfkarotte on September 01, 2013, 12:27:06 am
Sick thread. Torture is the most cruel human rights abuse and it doesn't "work", there's nothing to debate.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2013, 12:28:25 am
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on September 01, 2013, 12:37:35 am
I don't agree at all. Let's take the example of the bank director and the safe code. So you tell me there is a way to be sure if he knows the code or not. How? An insider? Maybe he lied. Maybe he misinterpreted what he heard. Maybe they recently changed their policies. Maybe he did know the code, but fell down the stairs yesterday and hit his head and forgot it.
You can't be sure he still has the information you are looking for. But you think he does. That's why you tie him to a chair, get a power drill and spin it up in front of him. He gets the message. I think most people will, at this point, already give you what you want, IF they have it. But let's assume he swears he doesn't know the code instead. So what do you do?
You start torturing him. And in the process, he will give you a code. Maybe it works. IF he really had it, and wasn't intimidated at first, he might give it after having felt the pain. But what do you do if the code he gives you doesn't work? How many false codes does he have to give before you decide he doesn't know it after all?
As you can see, even this simple scenario is problematic. It gets even more problematic if you are looking for information that cannot easily be falsified, and if you are dealing with victims that are trained to resist pain and are not afraid to die. Also, in most practical scenarios it's not very clear if somebody really has the information you are looking for or not.
There is so much uncertainty involved that it's safe to say the process as a whole doesn't work.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2013, 12:50:41 am
But what do you do if the code he gives you doesn't work? How many false codes does he have to give before you decide he doesn't know it after all?
There are only ever probabilities. Nothing is of probability 1.0, which isn't just certainty, it's infinite certainty. No one is suggesting that torture works with the probability of 1.0. The scenario you give is not problematic in the least: torture is still likely to work, if said bank director knows the code and you know what you are doing. How many false codes do you have to be given before you give up and accept that the director doesn't know the code? That's up to you and your assessment of the director. So say you torture the director for five hours in the most horrific and creative ways one can possibly imagine, do you think it's probable you will be given the code if the director knows the code? If yes, torture is effective and works.
It seems you are assuming that torture isn't worth it unless you can be sure it works. But if you get the code 90% of the time, does it not work? Is it not effective? What method is sure to be more effective every time? "Since I can't be sure torture will work I just won't try at all" isn't an answer. Hell, even if it works one time in a thousand it's worth trying, it's better than nothing, if you really need to get that code.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: EponiCo on September 01, 2013, 01:35:54 am
While I can agree with your general idea, just noting that I don't think most people probably mean "there's not a single case where torture works" when they say it doesn't. Accuracy and all, yes, but you are setting the accuracy with the question. I guess it depends on how cynical you are but that there are situations where it works with say 99% probability is pretty shrugworthy. Though experiments excluding a lot of factors and possibilities are great to clarify positions but you are always running the risk of excluding the factors that are important for the real life application. Or in other words, if someone says torture doesn't work and in 90% of all the cases it doesn't, he would be right. You'd possibly still be able to select 1% of the cases so that in each there is a 90% chance that it works. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Rumblood on September 01, 2013, 05:28:21 am
A broken clock is right twice a day. Does that mean it works?
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Bobthehero on September 01, 2013, 06:30:39 am
Although it's dirty if possible I'd have thought some form of black mail would be preferable to any torture. Torture may seem like a quicker way I suppose but it's undeniably a disgusting, and far from reliable means of getting information. Everyone has some form of leverage that can be exacted through blackmail. And although again it can result in unreliable information, I'd have said that's a much better way of going about it if you have to.
See the movie Act of Valor, while its a really pro-american movie and the acting is terrible (duh, they have actual SEALs playing SEALs, but that's not the point) the only ''torture scene'' so to speak is when an interrogator does his job on a guy, instead of torturing him, he simply threatens to de-port the family of the guy he is interrogating.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2013, 08:25:55 am
What doesn't make you stronger, kills you. Does that mean my hovercraft is full of eels?
Nice try. Since you don't understand the simple concept, the point is that just because something appears successful occasionally, doesn't mean that it is.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: zagibu on September 01, 2013, 11:57:04 am
There are only ever probabilities. Nothing is of probability 1.0, which isn't just certainty, it's infinite certainty. No one is suggesting that torture works with the probability of 1.0. The scenario you give is not problematic in the least: torture is still likely to work, if said bank director knows the code and you know what you are doing. How many false codes do you have to be given before you give up and accept that the director doesn't know the code? That's up to you and your assessment of the director. So say you torture the director for five hours in the most horrific and creative ways one can possibly imagine, do you think it's probable you will be given the code if the director knows the code? If yes, torture is effective and works.
It seems you are assuming that torture isn't worth it unless you can be sure it works. But if you get the code 90% of the time, does it not work? Is it not effective? What method is sure to be more effective every time? "Since I can't be sure torture will work I just won't try at all" isn't an answer. Hell, even if it works one time in a thousand it's worth trying, it's better than nothing, if you really need to get that code.
Well, I give up. You seem to want to discuss on an abstract level that simply isn't useful for these kinds of things. You take an artificial and grossly simplified scenario I only used to hint at the problems in the concept, then you ignore them and use the scenario to rate the process in general. Which is nonsense.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Christo on September 01, 2013, 12:02:42 pm
Come over and talk about politics instead, oy!
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2013, 08:28:31 pm
Nice try. Since you don't understand the simple concept, the point is that just because something appears successful occasionally, doesn't mean that it is.
You need to work on your analogies. I've never seen more broken analogies than your clock and cold fusion ones. I understand the concept, it's just that it's utterly irrelevant to everything.
Well, I give up. You seem to want to discuss on an abstract level that simply isn't useful for these kinds of things. You take an artificial and grossly simplified scenario I only used to hint at the problems in the concept, then you ignore them and use the scenario to rate the process in general. Which is nonsense.
You make a lot of arguments by assertion here.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on February 12, 2017, 12:04:24 pm
This topic is once again pertinent ;)
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on February 12, 2017, 12:09:22 pm
To some extent, it does work.
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
Post by: Xant on February 12, 2017, 02:41:30 pm
C'mon... that's beneath you, Xant. Too cheap of a pun :P
Title: Re: Torture: does it work?
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