cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tzar on May 11, 2011, 09:03:21 am

Title: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Tzar on May 11, 2011, 09:03:21 am
Remove stun lock from pole-arms possible??

Lets face it the stun lock on pole-arms is just annoying like hell it almost works just like and 99% chance knock-down  :lol:

Either give every weapon polearm stun or get rid of it all ready...
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Seawied on May 11, 2011, 09:50:41 am
I know what you're talking about because I've observed this as well, but to someone who just stumbled on this thread you're going to confuse them with all the grammar mistakes in that post.


Might want to clean it up a bit so people can understand your argument better.




But hell, its 1 am here, and I'm sure my post is RIDDLED with them as well!
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: v/onMega on May 11, 2011, 10:02:55 am
Remove stun lock from pole-arms possible??

Lets face it the stun lock on pole-arms is just annoying like hell it almost works just like and 99% chance knock-down  :lol:

Either give every weapon polearm stun or get rid of it all ready...

How long have you been thinking about this really reasonable, profound arguement?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 10:06:48 am
I remember cmpx saying on IRC polearm stun will never be removed. So I guess this thread is obsolete.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Tzar on May 11, 2011, 11:04:48 am
I remember cmpx saying on IRC polearm stun will never be removed. So I guess this thread is obsolete.

Touche
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Radix on May 11, 2011, 11:24:56 am
polearms need some slight OP so we can have dedicated spearmans killing this nasty cav.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 11:36:29 am
polearms need some slight OP so we can have dedicated spearmans killing this nasty cav.

What's stopping you? Take the pike and no cav will be a threat to you. Except for HA that is.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: UrLukur on May 11, 2011, 11:40:02 am
maybe nerf to damage and speed if we can't get rid off stunlocking my old friends ?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 11, 2011, 11:44:59 am
By stunlock do you mean the 'I stabbed you, now I can again without you blocking' or 'It appears you have stabbed into my downblock, now I have a free attack which you cannot block' :lol:
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Radix on May 11, 2011, 11:49:48 am
What's stopping you? Take the pike and no cav will be a threat to you. Except for HA that is.

well im a shielder and I carry a pike just for cav so dont u worry :)
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Magikarp on May 11, 2011, 11:55:56 am
maybe nerf to damage and speed if we can't get rid off stunlocking my old friends ?
Stunlock, lol. If it was like that, polearm users could literally spam you to death. Which is not the case atm, you can still perfectly block after the stun.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 11:59:57 am
Stunlock, lol. If it was like that, polearm users could literally spam you to death. Which is not the case atm, you can still perfectly block after the stun.

Correct, there is no stunlock, as there is no successful spam.
There is stun though, but it's not anything unblockable.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: UrLukur on May 11, 2011, 12:01:10 pm
Stunlock, lol. If it was like that, polearm users could literally spam you to death. Which is not the case atm, you can still perfectly block after the stun.

And die to one hit followed by impossible to block attacks. Or not be able to attack back against charged attacks (mostly with 1h no shield or light weapons). Isn't stun based on raw damage  and weight making long axes new black  ?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Magikarp on May 11, 2011, 12:04:10 pm
And die to one hit followed by impossible to block attacks. Or not be able to attack back against charged attacks (mostly with 1h no shield or light weapons). Isn't stun based on raw damage  and weight making long axes new black  ?
I don't understand a thing of what you are saying, but yeah, in 2vs1 fights, don't get hit by a polearm, youl get stunned and have a slightly higher chance of not blocking the next blow.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 12:08:30 pm
impossible to block attacks

Does not exist
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: UrLukur on May 11, 2011, 12:11:00 pm
Does not exist

After you get hit it still exist, just like it existed in beta.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Punisher on May 11, 2011, 12:13:58 pm
Does not exist

Sadly it does.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 12:17:05 pm
Never experienced an impossible to block attack. How does it happen then?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Punisher on May 11, 2011, 12:23:56 pm
For a brief time, like 1 second you can't block, thus the one that stunned you gets a free hit. It doesn't happen on all polearms, it feels like it's related to speed, I've seen it happen most on Warspear and Iron Staff, especially when used with an agi build.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2011, 12:34:07 pm
For a brief time, like 1 second you can't block, thus the one that stunned you gets a free hit. It doesn't happen on all polearms, it feels like it's related to speed, I've seen it happen most on Warspear and Iron Staff, especially when used with an agi build.

I always managed to recover after the first warspear hit and block the next. If I didn't it was my error.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Jarlek on May 11, 2011, 12:43:38 pm
Doesn't it just apply to stabs? At least that's my experience. Also it is still possible to block the next attackfrom the polearmuser. The stun lasts for a long time but not long enough for the spearman to attack again. But any other enemies around you can easily attack you in that time and if they also have a polearms and stabs that means you can be stunlocked.

This works really well with pikemen for example. The first one stabs you and stunlocks you. During that the secound pikeman stabs and stunlocks you. By then, the first one has recovered and stabs you again. Rince repeat till the enemy is dead.

This is also a very good tactic if you got three pikemen. Once me and two clanmates went pike and stunlocked a tincan so that he not just couldn't block, he couldn't move at all. I call it "the machinegun" :D
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Endo on May 11, 2011, 12:48:15 pm
I believe the stun is linked to damage in the same way crushthrough and knockdown are, so an attack held for 1/3-1/2 second will stun long enough to get a free attack (if you have enough agi and good footwork I suppose). I can't prove it, but I'm almost certain there have been times where I could not block the next attack from a polearm through no fault of my own.

I also remember someone saying it is hard coded into Warband, so it won't be removed until we get the WSE.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 11, 2011, 02:31:00 pm
An agi user with an awlpike can pull off the stunlock pretty regularly, almost on every stab I think. There is around a second where you are unable to block, move or do anything after being stabbed. If you try to block the next stab before your character finishes being 'stunned' they will forget to put up the block in time, you have a window of a fraction of a second after the stun fully finishes to block successfully and so it is impossible against two polearm users.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Hauptmann on July 20, 2011, 07:48:00 pm
I vote no. High end polearms are slower than equivalent 2h.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Tzar on July 20, 2011, 08:07:36 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Baggy on July 20, 2011, 09:45:25 pm
Y U NO LET IT DIIIIEEEE!!
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Preacher on July 20, 2011, 10:25:29 pm
Wow Tsar, you are really a piece of work, you call ppl whiners and criers, and even make fancy pictures to that effect, when they point out fail game mechanics, then you start your own thread to try to change game features? What a total troll, (is that what it's called? I think so).
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Siiem on July 20, 2011, 11:09:26 pm
I remember cmpx saying on IRC polearm stun will never be removed. So I guess this thread is obsolete.

Cmp will tell you exatcly the opposite of what you want, The way of the catholic, italian mob machine of propaganda.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on July 21, 2011, 12:00:30 am
Stun lock should be an algorithm based on the strength based attribute. So, if my char is super strong I actually have a chance of stunning my enemies. If weak, then its near impossible to preform. It would eliminate the agi spammers from wrapping in 4-8 hits in a row without any opportunity to block.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Thucydides on July 21, 2011, 05:57:58 am
Stun lock should be an algorithm based on the strength based attribute. So, if my char is super strong I actually have a chance of stunning my enemies. If weak, then its near impossible to preform. It would eliminate the agi spammers from wrapping in 4-8 hits in a row without any opportunity to block.

y u so smart?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 08:14:45 am
Well, stunlock is annoying. You can avoid it though, by not missing a block  :lol:
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Ujin on July 21, 2011, 10:52:30 am
Well, stunlock is annoying. You can avoid it though, by not missing a block  :lol:
Go duel Tor, lol. 1 chamber that you can't even block (half-visible animation)  + second hit for free (GLA) = you're dead.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on July 21, 2011, 11:00:58 am
Go duel Tor, lol. 1 chamber that you can't even block (half-visible animation)  + second hit for free (GLA) = you're dead.

Yeah I know :(
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Tzar on July 23, 2011, 04:01:33 pm
Go duel Tor, lol. 1 chamber that you can't even block (half-visible animation)  + second hit for free (GLA) = you're dead.

Heh yeah its sad  :?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Trikipum on August 01, 2011, 03:29:47 pm
Stun lock should be an algorithm based on the strength based attribute. So, if my char is super strong I actually have a chance of stunning my enemies. If weak, then its near impossible to preform. It would eliminate the agi spammers from wrapping in 4-8 hits in a row without any opportunity to block.
that is retarded sorry, strengh has nothing to do in reality with stunts... if you ever saw UFC 15 years ago you would understand why i say this...crushing is about str and that is right.. but stunts are more about hitting in the correct place at the correct moment, a 50kg guy can stunt a 120kg if he knows how to do so....
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Magikarp on August 01, 2011, 03:36:33 pm
You can't stunlock people, obviously.

If they get a hit in when you got stunned, you didn't block.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Gurnisson on August 01, 2011, 03:39:42 pm
Peasant armor + shortened spear/lawlpike. Stabbity stab. Try blocking them while you're stunned. Oh, it didn't work?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: ordunin on August 01, 2011, 07:06:55 pm
that is retarded sorry, strengh has nothing to do in reality with stunts... if you ever saw UFC 15 years ago you would understand why i say this...crushing is about str and that is right.. but stunts are more about hitting in the correct place at the correct moment, a 50kg guy can stunt a 120kg if he knows how to do so....

 It's not nice to call ideas retarded, especially when you cannot spell the subject matter correctly.

IT'S STUN, NOT STUNT (unless you're doing a stunt but that's not what we're talking about).
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Hisagi on August 01, 2011, 09:32:29 pm
You can't stunlock people, obviously.

If they get a hit in when you got stunned, you didn't block.
I don't think you've fought an agi build in your life. Hell, I've fought balance builds that can land one hit on u and walk circles so ur character is unable to turn around to block due to the stun.

Take Adoptagoat for example, he uses the stun perfect to his advantage. 1 hit, facehugs and moves around u, hits again, etc.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Magikarp on August 01, 2011, 09:35:09 pm
*Sigh* Polearms are so OP, everyone uses them!

/sarcasm off
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: DaveUKR on August 01, 2011, 11:11:38 pm
*Sigh* Polearms are so OP, everyone uses them!

/sarcasm off

I think the amount of kills made by polearms is pretty close to the amount of kills made by 2handers.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 01, 2011, 11:17:25 pm
I think the amount of kills made by polearms is pretty close to the amount of kills made by 2handers.

DID I HEAR STATISTICS TIME??????????

Eu1 last week: (12.7. to 18.7.)
One handed:         47578 (25.96%)
Two handed:        51864 (28.30%)
Polearms:         51689 (28.20%)
Bow:            13918 (7.59%)
Crossbows:          7563 (4.13%)
Thrown:          1978 (1.08%)
Headshot:          6630 (3.62%)
horsebump:          1982 (1.08%) nerf cav nao
Others:            62 (0.03%)
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: BreakIn on August 16, 2011, 01:22:58 pm
If i see agi spammer with hafted blade, english bill, bec de corbin or something i gonna just run run run -_- I am blocking good, but i can't even attack cause when i fight with agi spammer with polearm he attack rapidly and very fast, so i can't make counter attack. Look on Native - samurai with polearm, i think agi spammer. So - i fight with him, hit him - he blocked, than he hit - i block but next hit comes pretty fast - block, than third hit - i failed block. I got stunlocked, so i can't block next hit and i die.

It is my situation on 2hander - XxQuietxX. On crossbowman - Shiver - it's easier, cause i can kill him before i get into his weapon range, when i fight melee it is easier too, cause i use Mace and can counter after he make hit.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Paul on August 16, 2011, 01:32:33 pm
I think the amount of kills made by polearms is pretty close to the amount of kills made by 2handers.

On foot, 2h kills are dominating. However k/d-ratio-wise I think pole and 2h are both on the top - at least for footman action only (aka siege). On duel servers there are about 70% 2h guys I think. They are the loudest when it comes to forum lobbying. We ignore everyone equally though.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: POOPHAMMER on August 16, 2011, 01:35:56 pm
I am a polearm user and I agree stunlock is pretty dirty stuff

Its like I dont even have to try to earn my kills after the first hit sets in
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Siiem on August 16, 2011, 02:33:49 pm
34 people voted no... lol.

I remember cmpx saying on IRC polearm stun will never be removed. So I guess this thread is obsolete.

Lemme tell you something about italians http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3-KLvO0tZ4&feature=player_detailpage#t=109s
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Paul on August 16, 2011, 04:30:05 pm
Siege statistics:

[16:02] <Fasader> One handed: 56075 (20.14%)
[16:02] <Fasader> Two handed: 115131 (41.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Polearms: 62269 (22.37%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Bow: 16893 (6.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Crossbows: 12342 (4.43%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Thrown: 3282 (1.18%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Headshot: 12115 (4.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Horsebump: 192 (0.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Others: 109 (0.04%)
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2011, 04:31:10 pm
how many of those are made by HAMMARSS
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Camaris on August 16, 2011, 04:51:36 pm
Siege statistics:

[16:02] <Fasader> One handed: 56075 (20.14%)
[16:02] <Fasader> Two handed: 115131 (41.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Polearms: 62269 (22.37%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Bow: 16893 (6.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Crossbows: 12342 (4.43%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Thrown: 3282 (1.18%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Headshot: 12115 (4.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Horsebump: 192 (0.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Others: 109 (0.04%)

Which duration does this statistic have?
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Paul on August 16, 2011, 07:13:03 pm
1 week I think.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: El_Infante on August 16, 2011, 07:20:50 pm
Siege statistics:

[16:02] <Fasader> One handed: 56075 (20.14%)
[16:02] <Fasader> Two handed: 115131 (41.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Polearms: 62269 (22.37%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Bow: 16893 (6.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Crossbows: 12342 (4.43%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Thrown: 3282 (1.18%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Headshot: 12115 (4.35%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Horsebump: 192 (0.07%)
[16:03] <Fasader> Others: 109 (0.04%)

That means:
- 2h is overused or still OP.
- Polearms are not dangerous as this topic want.
- There are few 1h skilled players.
- Thrown is USELESS..
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2011, 08:00:11 pm
That means:
- 2h is overused or still OP.
- Polearms are not dangerous as this topic want.
- There are few 1h skilled players.
- Thrown is USELESS..

> siege statistics
> who cares
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: BlackMilk on August 16, 2011, 08:05:14 pm
Polearms will remain OP, even if the polestun is being removed. More damage, more reach, same speed.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: El_Infante on August 16, 2011, 09:16:42 pm
Polearms will remain OP, even if the polestun is being removed. More damage, more reach, same speed.

Same speed? :-) Are you joking? Elegant poleaxe have 92 speed. Another polearms go from 88 to 90.
Did you remember polearm grip? More reach? No.
2h is far better than polearms, because you get:
+5 speed from animation.
+Reach by animation
+Smooth animations

The only advantage I see to use a polearm is stun/bonus against shields.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Phew on August 16, 2011, 10:10:15 pm
As a polearm user I would gladly trade this "pole stun mechanic" for the reach we lose due to grip and crappy animations.

The hard part with any polearm is landing that first hit, since your animations are so slow and obvious that anyone with halfway decent blocking skills will be nearly invincible. This nullifies the fact that the second hit is slightly easier to pull off.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Camaris on August 17, 2011, 09:03:03 am
Would be cool to see these statistics everyweek Paul.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Siiem on August 17, 2011, 04:47:47 pm
Would be cool to see these statistics everyweek Paul.

Don't think so, earlier quote.

> siege statistics
> who cares
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 04:50:27 pm
Give us the battle statistics. I really don't give a damn about siege, it's broken game mode, populated mostly by total noobs.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Konrax on August 17, 2011, 06:29:54 pm
Those numbers don't count unless you divide them by the number of players using such weapons to get kills to get the average number of kills per player using that class of weapon.

Throwing performs so poorly because you see 1 person a day on siege using them.

2h performs so well because roughly 40% of the population uses 2h weapons.


Not a real number that means anything without cross referencing the data with a standard variable so they can be compared against eachother.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Teeth on August 17, 2011, 11:04:25 pm
Same speed? :-) Are you joking? Elegant poleaxe have 92 speed. Another polearms go from 88 to 90.
Did you remember polearm grip? More reach? No.
2h is far better than polearms, because you get:
+5 speed from animation.
+Reach by animation
+Smooth animations

The only advantage I see to use a polearm is stun/bonus against shields.
I disagree with this on all levels. Polearms, seem/are much faster than their speed suggests. Try swinging a 95 speed warspear and 95 speed miaodao, maybe its just a weight difference, but the warspear seems much faster and you can feintspam like a madman. Whereas feinting with the miaodao just makes most people yawn. Same goes for comparison of a danish greatsword and long hafted blade.

Warspears, glaives and long hafted blades all seem ridiculously fast for their speed. You can pull of unbelievably confusing feints with all of these weapons. Also when these weapons get blocked, they bounce back in a way thats similar to the animation of chambering a new attack, so its hard to spot double attacks. I for one always get killed by double attacks by these weapons, which rarely happens to me versus 2h.

Several polearm stabs in succesion of eachother are also very fast. If a warspear user stabs and backpedals you can barely get a hit in.

I'd say polearms get the +5 speed with their animations and more confusing feints. I don't believe you can state these things, you must not have tried both.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Thucydides on August 17, 2011, 11:08:41 pm
I disagree with this on all levels. Polearms, seem/are much faster than their speed suggests. Try swinging a 95 speed warspear and 95 speed miaodao, maybe its just a weight difference, but the warspear seems much faster and you can feintspam like a madman. Whereas feinting with the miaodao just makes most people yawn. Same goes for comparison of a danish greatsword and long hafted blade.

Warspears, glaives and long hafted blades all seem ridiculously fast for their speed. You can pull of unbelievably confusing feints with all of these weapons. Also when these weapons get blocked, they bounce back in a way thats similar to the animation of chambering a new attack, so its hard to spot double attacks. I for one always get killed by double attacks by these weapons, which rarely happens to me versus 2h.

Several polearm stabs in succesion of eachother are also very fast. If a warspear user stabs and backpedals you can barely get a hit in.

I'd say polearms get the +5 speed with their animations and more confusing feints. I don't believe you can state these things, you must not have tried both.

i went on the EU server to duel and 2h animations are confusing as fuck, much more so than polearms. Especially if they look at the ground and then feint
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on August 17, 2011, 11:24:13 pm
2h feints are a lot faster.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Siiem on August 18, 2011, 01:04:59 am
Funny... the polearmers says the 2h feints are faster. 2hers say polearm feints are fast and weirder. lul.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Vibe on August 18, 2011, 10:17:55 am
Funny... the polearmers says the 2h feints are faster. 2hers say polearm feints are fast and weirder. lul.

Polearm feints are weirder, but 2h feints are absolutely faster. FEINTS, not attack animations. Have a 2h with a lot less wpf than my polearm char, and he feints a lot faster. Going from block to swing to block. Try it yourself.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Paul on August 18, 2011, 10:45:10 am
With a 4 direction 2h it's kinda possible to conceal one attack feint as another, like for example a thrust can initially look like a right-to-left swing when done turned to the right. While that's not possible with pole or 1h, those got other advantages.
Title: Re: Remove stunlock from polearms possible??
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 10:48:50 am
I mostly find polearms easier to block than 2h's, unless ragni is feinting with his glaive. It kinda looks like he's having a seizure and I just can't keep track of the thing.
I find that more common in 2h's, but I think it's more the players that use them, rather than a feature of 2h weapons.