cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 06:51:42 pm

Title: current cRPG
Post by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 06:51:42 pm
Unbalanced matches: Half the players enjoy the game >> People start to leave the losing team resulting in even more unbalance OR people go spec and then join the winning team, resulting in even more unbalance.

Balanced matches: ALL players enjoy the game.

(IMO) balance should always be the holy grail for devs of skillbased games.

People want multi. To get multi you need to join one of the most active clans.

The argument "so we can play with friends" doesnt hold water. People use banner balance cus they want multi not cus they "enjoy playing with friends". Not that i blame ppl they simply do what they can within the limits of the mod in order to progress. I just think its wrong and spoils the entire idea of a clan. IMO joining a clan should be based on personal preferences and taste, not just cus you want XP.

Imagine if we all joined the same clan.... GG devs

That was my 5 cents i think
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 18, 2013, 06:54:36 pm
I want to play with friends and haven't even given multi a second thought. Hell, half the time I don't even know what it is, because every time Skyrim UI mod thing is updated I have multiplier turned off along with the rest of the UI (except chat).

And if we all join the same clan, we'd have perfect balance and we'd all be clanbuddies. What a utopia!
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Prpavi on July 18, 2013, 06:56:40 pm
It's been like this for a while now...

Banners balance does this true, but I honestly see no other way to split the teams other than banner blance tbh.

I blame strat and last Xp overhaul taht made possible for huge clans to have 33/34/35 lvl players with all loomed gear and killer builds, that is why big clans rape when they get together, high numbers, high levels, armory full of looms.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 06:57:32 pm
And if we all join the same clan, we'd have perfect balance and we'd all be clanbuddies. What a utopia!

utopia is something good that is impossible. i dont think it would be good. i like the diversety in clans and colors and nationality. gives crpg a nice touch of how it really was back in the day. crpg should reflect, not all, but just a little bit of reality and history... at least IMO :p
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 06:58:58 pm
It's been like this for a while now...

Bnners balance does this true, but I honestly see no other way to split the teams other than banner blance tbh.

whats wrong with a regular pure/raw/whatever balancer??? is it cus its too hard to do? code-issues? what? i dont get it :)
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Prpavi on July 18, 2013, 07:03:07 pm
whats wrong with a regular pure/raw/whatever balancer??? is it cus its too hard to do? code-issues? what? i dont get it :)

Because you can't force people to not play together because youre antisocial, not a member of a clan on ts and hence get raped.

My best times ever win or lose was in the Bandit TS with 10/15 guys just laughing, most of the time how the round will end was not a major concer.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Turboflex on July 18, 2013, 07:05:42 pm
Some clans are basically an anti-stack when 5+ members are on.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 07:10:15 pm
dunno how many times ive read/heard ppl from big clans say that they are on ts and on the same team but they are not even trying cus they are chatting random on ts and not focusing on the game

as for myself i cant fully concentrate and also be on teamspeak. i have ADHD and even the shortest useless comment about something not crpg is enough to make me loose it and start to bable about it or think about what he said resulting in me running around random
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2013, 07:10:22 pm
I dont really mind being on the loosing team and getting mercilessly slaughtered like im one of the Starks bodyguards in Kings Landing at the end of the round. The thing holding me down is upkeep. When I loose to much cash cause of being in the loosing team like 20 rounds in a row, due to "bad luck" as some put it, I just get pissed and leave. And im not gonna change* my loadout either. I love it, ive grown attached to it. Using something else cheaper is like cheating on a loving hot supermodel wife with a cheap gutterwhore.

Looking how much i have left from my fortune, I get the feeling im rather cursed by a  gipsey than having some accidental bad luck. This upkeepbullshit is seriuslly getting on my tits lately. I get that its a needed feature and its generally a very important factor of the whole mod, but personally im not having fun with it around.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Sniger on July 18, 2013, 07:14:19 pm
examble:

i play lots of chess. i dont mind getting BUTTF****D in less than 10 moves cus he was just better than i am and i can learn alot from it.


now, i cant learn ANYTHING from cRPG rapage... not anything usefull anyway. i can be on winning or losing team, no matter. i wont learn a thing. i learn how to QQ and whine but thats it :)

remember, cRPG is not just clans fighting other clans. theres also a heck of a load of other ppl; that is smaller clans as well as randoms. when i play cRPG i try to follow and stay near the majority. when clans play they have their own agenda and go where they talk about going, usally disregarding the majority either cus they expect randoms to follow them or cus they are (sowwy :D) arrogant enough to belive that they can win the round without them.

im thinking... maybe if the clans in general became more aware of the randoms and well rest of the team rather than playing their own little strat on FFA servers. dunno just sudden thought i had.

sorry for all the gramma phails, im just speaking my mind here and im high too :)
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: partyboy on July 18, 2013, 07:27:51 pm
I miss being able to do whatever I want without someone screaming LEECHING as long as I jumped off a roof or ladder fortress when I was the last one left alive.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Vodner on July 18, 2013, 07:33:16 pm
One problem is that if a team gets steamrolled in round 2, then that team will almost always start playing in a manner that guarantees a continued steamroll (everybody splitting up so that they can try to get a few kills before getting mowed over by the enemy blob).

Personally, I enjoyed the experiment of using siege-style autobalance in battle several months back. The teams were scrambled every single round. People complained that x5s were rare. They were right, which is how it should be: x5s should be something that almost never happen, due to close team balance.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Teeth on July 18, 2013, 07:34:08 pm
The argument "so we can play with friends" doesnt hold water. People use banner balance cus they want multi not cus they "enjoy playing with friends". Not that i blame ppl they simply do what they can within the limits of the mod in order to progress. I just think its wrong and spoils the entire idea of a clan. IMO joining a clan should be based on personal preferences and taste, not just cus you want XP.
I like banner balance because I enjoy playing alongside the people I am on teamspeak with. People naturally join bigger clans, because what is the point of being in a clan when no clan members are ever playing. A bigger clan means a larger chance that people will be playing when you are. Player numbers dwindle -> clan membership concentrates.

I think improving the auto balancer should be a rather high priority. It is simply not very smart. I can often see right at the start of the round which team is going to win by looking at the player list. The win/loss ratio of every battle player should be tracked and auto balance should happen according to that. Win/loss ratio is a good measure of how much each individual contributes to the victory of his team. This way, clanstacks who win more rounds because of teamplay and sticking together, get rated higher than simply their individual skill. Nevertheless I think their should be extra weight to large banner groups in the multiplier. 5 players with an average W/L ratio of 1.2 from one clan will most likely do better than 5 individual randoms with a W/L ratio of 1.2. I think the current autobalancer balances by k/d and level+equipment cost and it is obviously not good enough.

A different issue is the removal of the multiplier and a rework of the xp/gold system, which could make the game a lot more friendly even if your team loses.

The biggest problem though in my opinion is players that do not spawn. Sure when you are playing 60 vs 60, 3 missing players is no big deal. If you are talking 25 vs 25, and one team starts with 20 players and the other with 25, the round is pretty damn skewed already. I've even seen 25 vs 35 and that short of shit. Perhaps there need to be upkeep penalties for not spawning or something to motivate people to not just sit out a few rounds, while the balancer still sees them as a part of their team. Simple thing that needs to happen though is a move to the spectators after not spawning for a round.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Tojo on July 18, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
Sounds like you need to invest in some powerful friends  :P.

When HG has our 6-7 members all playing in a server, we actually try to stay with the horde and defend the peasants/ archers who get 1 shot. We look at ourselves as the catalyst for the win not the deciding factor (we aren't that good...yet)

IMO team balance can be a little off especially on low population servers, but its about 50/50 chance that you will end up on the "better" team
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Turboflex on July 18, 2013, 08:21:02 pm
win/loss ratio is tracked?
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Teeth on July 18, 2013, 08:25:20 pm
win/loss ratio is tracked?
I said 'should be tracked', dunno if it is. But player specific information about whether they win or lose is obviously sent to the database to change their xp/gold gain accordingly, so shouldn't be impossible to track. They had some funky statistics a while back about the amount of total damage dealt by each weapon, so who knows what else they are tracking.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Prpavi on July 18, 2013, 08:34:08 pm
I said 'should be tracked', dunno if it is. But player specific information about whether they win or lose is obviously sent to the database to change their xp/gold gain accordingly, so shouldn't be impossible to track. They had some funky statistics a while back about the amount of total damage dealt by each weapon, so who knows what else they are tracking.

I think that is a bit much to ask of a mod that will probably be dead this time next year (given the devs get in beta of Battlerounds atleast) and whose main devs don't play the mod for years now and are deep in toughts about the new game.

I am mostly waiting it out so to say at this point and savoring the sweet last moments of cRPG.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Jarold on July 18, 2013, 08:43:17 pm
I play in a clan for friends, the multi is just a bonus.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2013, 08:47:54 pm
The balancer in cRPG does need work, not for the purpose of multi's necessarily but for gameplay fun.

The steamrolls that happen can sometimes be quite ridiculous and cause people to get tired of it and log off, often making the problem worse.

Interestingly enough - I do not think that BANNER BALANCE is the problem in and of itself.
The problem is that after putting clans together on one team or another, it does not always properly balance the "randoms" around that.  It should always be seeking to balance the average points and KDR's of the people playing, so that each team has roughly the same cumulative score and KDR going at any given time. It should place people on a team with their clan, then determine how balanced the result of that was, and balance the "randoms" based on that to further even things out.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: STR_KpuBopy4ka on July 18, 2013, 09:22:03 pm
K/D ratio depends on your teammates alot. no teamplay in team => low k/d(not many points). even 1-3 players who know how to play can help (and even if u lose 90% u'll get valor). many teamplayers => u'll rape another team
all this about mele(mostly siedge) +)
ps sry for my engl
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Macropus on July 18, 2013, 09:30:53 pm
When people say autobalance is shit I can't resist to remember the double xp days when battles like 120 vs 120 often have been ending up with 1 vs 1 duel...
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Nehvar on July 18, 2013, 09:31:59 pm
Nothing like the autostacker putting you on "the team that can't possibly win" for three maps in a row to extinguish ones desire to play.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Angantyr on July 19, 2013, 12:14:39 am
Massacres happen regularly even without clans tipping the scale. Usually depending on how much one team splits from the blob, a gank either way.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Corsair831 on July 19, 2013, 11:29:05 pm
I said 'should be tracked', dunno if it is. But player specific information about whether they win or lose is obviously sent to the database to change their xp/gold gain accordingly, so shouldn't be impossible to track. They had some funky statistics a while back about the amount of total damage dealt by each weapon, so who knows what else they are tracking.

they're watching our freakin webcams man. i've got a sock over mine, don't want chadz fapping to my pretty face

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Osiris on July 19, 2013, 11:55:14 pm
Massacres happen regularly even without clans tipping the scale. Usually depending on how much one team splits from the blob, a gank either way.


This! On Wednesday Byz were rolling eu1. not because they are super hardcore elite players but because they stuck in a group and the rest of the players followed. the team i was in? despite losing 3 rounds in a row they split into 4 different groups running in different directions. Balance cannot make up for human stupidity
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Kafein on July 19, 2013, 11:57:14 pm
Or, you can try and find some way to enjoy the game without dedicating your attention to the multi. Focus on what you are doing as an individual and enjoy your own prowess/fun/whatever. I agree everything in the mod tries to distract you from that, though.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Osiris on July 19, 2013, 11:59:12 pm
Or, you can try and find some way to enjoy the game without dedicating your attention to the multi. Focus on what you are doing as an individual and enjoy your own prowess/fun/whatever. I agree everything in the mod tries to distract you from that, though.

i like to fight regardless of multi :D but a steam roll doesnt allow you to do anything but get ganked by 10 players :(
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Kafein on July 20, 2013, 12:01:37 am

This! On Wednesday Byz were rolling eu1. not because they are super hardcore elite players but because they stuck in a group and the rest of the players followed. the team i was in? despite losing 3 rounds in a row they split into 4 different groups running in different directions. Balance cannot make up for human stupidity

Nothing can change human "stupidity", but most mass clans do a hell of a good (and not really intentional) job at creating a concentrated blob of seemingly organised players. Other players see this and naturally gather because even though when left unattended they sometimes naturally split in many groups, they still want the team to be in one group, the only thing they lack is cooperation.

i like to fight regardless of multi :D but a steam roll doesnt allow you to do anything but get ganked by 10 players :(

That is why siege exists
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Just A Random Pizza Guy on July 20, 2013, 12:02:27 am
This is a teamplay-based game. Regardless of the lack of balance The whole point of a clan is to implement more teamwork. If players are forced to be on another team than the faction that they are in and in TS with they'll probably just bro-code or something similarly. Clans bring teamplay, but take away balance. To be entirely honest I'd rather lose a shit ton, but have fun than vice-versa.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: sjarken on July 20, 2013, 10:08:28 pm
I usually play siege when im low level (i usually ragerespecc so level 28 is Max) my guild mostly play battle. I do not benefit from guilds banner balace and still i normally get to keep my muliti for a long time. I dont tend to troll around like many others do on siege. I do whats needed to win so i can level up. Guarding gatehouse is not the most fun job, but if u ceep it open u might save ur ulti  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Kalam on July 20, 2013, 10:51:06 pm
Unbalanced matches: Half the players enjoy the game >> People start to leave the losing team resulting in even more unbalance OR people go spec and then join the winning team, resulting in even more unbalance.

Balanced matches: ALL players enjoy the game.

(IMO) balance should always be the holy grail for devs of skillbased games.

People want multi. To get multi you need to join one of the most active clans.

The argument "so we can play with friends" doesnt hold water. People use banner balance cus they want multi not cus they "enjoy playing with friends". Not that i blame ppl they simply do what they can within the limits of the mod in order to progress. I just think its wrong and spoils the entire idea of a clan. IMO joining a clan should be based on personal preferences and taste, not just cus you want XP.

Imagine if we all joined the same clan.... GG devs

That was my 5 cents i think

People who join clans for that reason don't tend to stay in one clan long. They're usually recognized as hoppers. I don't know if this still happens, but in the past, when someone joins from another clan, the leaders from the new clan usually ask the old clan leaders why that person left.

It's like this...if a guy (or girl) hits on you and later spends the night at your place, that's usually cool. However, if he later asks for fifty dollars, or you find out that he's been with all the other guys in your neighborhood, your opinion changes drastically.

Multi-whores are multi-whores, and you will know them by their actions.

Clanmates don't always bro-code, by the way- I know plenty of clans that specifically go after clan mates. Hearing them exclaim their surprise or frustration over VoIP is priceless.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Teeth on July 22, 2013, 12:15:42 am
To those feeling they are on a team of retards getting stomped by the enemy's superior cohesion. Try doing some full caps commanding like FOLLOW BATTALION 1. Then go where you think is best with the flag. I have turned around obvious 4-0 maps a dozen times. People actually want to stick together, it is just incredibly difficult without any coordination. Perhaps people know me as a player or something, but I am always surprised at the response to my basic commands.

Nothing more satisfying then getting ganked by a bannerstack for a few maps, only to see the banner stack lose numbers after your commanding made them lose some rounds. Now that is rewarding. Seriously, just try it.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: //saxon on July 22, 2013, 12:24:45 am
Unbalanced matches: Half the players enjoy the game >> People start to leave the losing team resulting in even more unbalance OR people go spec and then join the winning team, resulting in even more unbalance.

Balanced matches: ALL players enjoy the game.

(IMO) balance should always be the holy grail for devs of skillbased games.

People want multi. To get multi you need to join one of the most active clans.

The argument "so we can play with friends" doesnt hold water. People use banner balance cus they want multi not cus they "enjoy playing with friends". Not that i blame ppl they simply do what they can within the limits of the mod in order to progress. I just think its wrong and spoils the entire idea of a clan. IMO joining a clan should be based on personal preferences and taste, not just cus you want XP.

Imagine if we all joined the same clan.... GG devs

That was my 5 cents i think
honest discussion.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Eugen on July 22, 2013, 01:05:42 am
I am a casual gamer without clan (randomer) and my experience of banner balance and current c-rpg is - quite good.

Battaillion system and (team-) chat works out most of the times.

Althoug I am no pro, I manage to get statisfying gaming experience with interaction, some strategy, team play and lots of fighting action.

I dont have the feeling the game is unbalanced. All classes seem to have theire strengths and weakness.

And if clans are stacked together with banner balance, its no guaratee for theire victory. I often have seen clan stackers owend by randomers, who manage to play together just with the things game offers (interface, chat, banners). Only thing clans have in addition to randomers is theire teamspeak i guess. And most of us know how distracting ts can be...

So what is this discussion about? I wonder.

Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: oreshy on July 22, 2013, 01:18:02 am
I am a casual gamer without clan (randomer) and my experience of banner balance and current c-rpg is - quite good.

Battaillion system and (team-) chat works out most of the times.

Althoug I am no pro, I manage to get statisfying gaming experience with interaction, some strategy, team play and lots of fighting action.

I dont have the feeling the game is unbalanced. All classes seem to have theire strengths and weakness.

And if clans are stacked together with banner balance, its no guaratee for theire victory. I often have seen clan stackers owend by randomers, who manage to play together just with the things game offers (interface, chat, banners). Only thing clans have in addition to randomers is theire teamspeak i guess. And most of us know how distracting ts can be...

So what is this discussion about? I wonder.

..this. well wrote.
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 22, 2013, 05:23:09 am
Are you NA or EU?
Title: Re: current cRPG
Post by: Eugen on July 22, 2013, 08:00:07 am
Are you NA or EU?

I play the EU servers. Are things different in NA?

Generally my post just meant. SToP QQ. Game is fine. Still there always can be improvement.

Get away with that bump key on "v". I want to yell without bumping my teammates.  :P

Now back to topic. of. err. current c-rpg is...