cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: San on June 21, 2013, 05:52:11 am

Title: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on June 21, 2013, 05:52:11 am
Hey, for those who have experienced high shield skill, I am just wondering what experience you had with 7? (Or some other high number). I often get hit over the shoulder or in the leg a lot with an elite cavalry shield. Is 5 to 7 shield skill worth it for the coverage? I like the increased durability, too, but the coverage and speed are more important to me.

Also, I am debating on 3 different dream build variants around 21/21 for a pure 1h with max WM where I have
70 HP with 7 shield skill and 7 PS (7IF)
63 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 PS (2IF)
58 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 ATH/WM (1IF)

This is why it's important to know if those 2 points in shield and some HP are worth a point in PS or Ath. I will increase armor to compensate with 7.5 weight leeway. The 8PS build sounds the best, but the 70 HP build hinges on 7shield being excellent over 5 with the best defence, and 8 ath just sounds fun to experience and may offer extra attack/defense with the additional speed. Of course, this build is quite a few months off, but it is fun to ponder what it would be like. The higher PS build can also get 7 shield at the cost of reducing HP to 59.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 21, 2013, 07:37:31 am
I would recommend not going for extra conversions; shielders benefit from maximizing their skills (and really most builds in general benefit from not over-converting skill points into attribute points).

You could do a sick-nasty Level 35 21/21 7 IF 7 PS 7 Ath 7 WM 4 Shield build if it turns out that the extra shield skill isn't worth it. This would be the build I would do if I had a Level 35 shielder. Otherwise take the extra points in WM and put them into Shield.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on June 21, 2013, 08:16:57 am
Hey, for those who have experienced high shield skill, I am just wondering what experience you had with 7? (Or some other high number). I often get hit over the shoulder or in the leg a lot with an elite cavalry shield. Is 5 to 7 shield skill worth it for the coverage? I like the increased durability, too, but the coverage and speed are more important to me.

Also, I am debating on 3 different dream build variants around 21/21 for a pure 1h with max WM where I have
70 HP with 7 shield skill and 7 PS (7IF)
63 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 PS (2IF)
58 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 ATH/WM (1IF)

This is why it's important to know if those 2 points in shield and some HP are worth a point in PS or Ath. I will increase armor to compensate with 7.5 weight leeway. The 8PS build sounds the best, but the 70 HP build hinges on 7shield being excellent over 5 with the best defence, and 8 ath just sounds fun to experience and may offer extra attack/defense with the additional speed. Of course, this build is quite a few months off, but it is fun to ponder what it would be like. The higher PS build can also get 7 shield at the cost of reducing HP to 59.


Ah young novice str shielder... I shall enlighten you in the ways of proper shielding. I currently has a measly 7 shield skill and have mostly been using an elite cav shield, I have not yet had ranged opponents hit me over or under my shield though I am quite sure they could get me in the feet if they tried. As for melee blocking it is quite good though there are always those moments when someone glitches through you and hits you on weird angles and such. The absolute best shield in the game is absolutely the Huscarl shield due to its amazing coverage, it is literally impossible for a ranged opponent to hit you from the front unless it penetrates the shield (which is very rare with a MW huscarl and my usual 8 shield skill). The side coverage on the Husarl is also fantastic, I tried board shields back in the day but it was too easy for people to hit me on angles that the huscarl would have blocked. The Elite cav is a very good shield but the Huscarl is still best. Also, Adjust your 21/21 to 18/24 as 8 athletics is infinitely better than 7.

p.s. stop wearing metal and IF is only for extra points that cant be used on WM, Shield, Ath or PS.

For reference... My current build and future build. Since you aren't taking xbow you could drop a few WM if you dont want to be as fast as you possibly can. When i used to do 12/24 with 172 1hander it was literally impossible to chamber my chambers.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Phew on June 21, 2013, 05:49:06 pm
My observations, having spent a lot of time with 5,6,and 7 skill:

Ranged forcefield improves a lot with increasing shield skill; 7 skill with an ECS means you never have to worry about archers in front of you if you shield is raised, nor archers to your left even if it isn't raised.

As for melee? I don't think anything affects melee coverage with shields (width, shield skill, etc), everything from a buckler with 3 skill to a huscarl with 10 skill will leave you raging at attacks that inexplicable swing through your block, even when you are directly facing your enemy. The devs have said that shield blocking in melee is exactly the same coverage-wise as manual blocking, but I don't buy it. People manual block me even when I'm totally behind them, but shields often fail to block someone that's exactly in front of you.

I've starting wearing a ton of armor, just because you can't even count on shields to actually block people in melee. They do their job against ranged though.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Necrorave on June 21, 2013, 06:03:28 pm
Hey, for those who have experienced high shield skill, I am just wondering what experience you had with 7? (Or some other high number). I often get hit over the shoulder or in the leg a lot with an elite cavalry shield. Is 5 to 7 shield skill worth it for the coverage? I like the increased durability, too, but the coverage and speed are more important to me.

Also, I am debating on 3 different dream build variants around 21/21 for a pure 1h with max WM where I have
70 HP with 7 shield skill and 7 PS (7IF)
63 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 PS (2IF)
58 HP with 5 shield skill and 8 ATH/WM (1IF)

I may not know the math behind it (I don't really bother to look) although I do feel a major difference in speed and a bit on coverage from 5-6 shield skill.

With 5 you get that rare wondering bolt that might stub your big toe.  Yet with 6 skill it feels as though I am behind a wall at all times.  The speed is the biggest one though.  At 6 skill and 100 shield speed I have been able to block attacks quick enough where the shield animation doesn't even register fully when the attack hits.

PS: Personal experience, no number or stats to back this up.  Keep in mind I use an Elite Cavalry Shield as well.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on June 22, 2013, 05:36:05 am
I don't have any numbers or evidence to back this up, but 7 and 8 shield skill are worth the investment compared to 5 shield skill. You can block as quickly as manual blocks. The forcefield at 7+ gets insane, especially with smaller shields. I enjoyed high ath and low equip weight as an 18/24 1H shielder. The round and steel bucklers are half the weight of other shields, and you get a block radius as wide as or maybe wider than a huscarl's shield. I would choke with laughter as my buckler caught javelins, arrows, bolts, and even throwing lances that should have impaled my elbows or knees. I imagine 7-8 shield skill with a knightly heater or elite cav shield would be godly.

It is a heavy investment of points, but I believe that high shield skill is worth it. If your reflexes are fast enough, you can block nearly anything.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Taser on June 22, 2013, 06:05:13 am
More shield skill san. At lvl 35 if you're going 21/21 you're still going to have a bunch of points to put into IF anyway so no need to worry. You'll have 4 IF going off my lvl 33 21/21 build with max PS, ath and WM. Have 5 shield atm. I went hybrid though so I couldn't tell you how much the WM helps as far as pure 1h goes.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Johammeth on June 22, 2013, 08:28:03 pm
The round and steel bucklers are half the weight of other shields, and you get a block radius as wide as or maybe wider than a huscarl's shield. I would choke with laughter as my buckler caught javelins, arrows, bolts, and even throwing lances that should have impaled my elbows or knees.

This.

Oh god, this.

7 skill turns your shield into vintage Randy Moss, catching anything thrown remotely near it.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Turboflex on June 25, 2013, 03:29:10 pm
I thought they got rid of shield skill increasing forcefield?

If range is hitting you it might just be bolts penetrating through your shield (which would decrease with more skill).

Also armour & HP are more to protect yourself against teammates than opponents. They are always the most dangerous enemies.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Phew on June 25, 2013, 04:21:25 pm
Quote
If range is hitting you it might just be bolts penetrating through your shield (which would decrease with more skill).

Bolt penetration is only a function of shield armor, with >~20 armor making a shield impervious to even +3 bolts from +3 arbalests. I had a +3 Hand Pavise (21 armor) that was penetrated by a bolt, but it only happened once, and I traded it immediately as a result.

Shield skill doesn't factor in. I made a 13 shield skill STF with a round cavalry shield, and bolts still penetrated.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 25, 2013, 05:11:42 pm
I'd stick with 4 or maybe 5 shield skill tops.  I don't think the extra points in shield skill are worth it unless you plan on getting hit with axes a lot. 

Love my knightly heater with 5 shield skill, but it was still a beast (unloomed) at 4 shield skill.  I'd use the elite cav shield, but round shields are terrible in first person when you're not blocking, they take up half your screen.  Only reason I decided to go with 5 shield on my final build (when I normally go 4) is because I wanted to be able to pick up Huscarl's from the battlefield (mainly in strat).

I personally think shield and riding are the skills you should only go with the minimum to be able to ride the horse or equip the shield (unless you're going 10+ shield/riding and are going to be highly specialized)
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on June 26, 2013, 03:35:50 am
Thanks for the input, guys. Any build could work since it's such a high level (actually level 36 o.o). I like to experiment with things on my STF, and 7 ath is just so fun and quick already. Took a week-long break, but I hope to get to one of those dream builds in a few months.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 26, 2013, 03:41:05 am
Thanks for the input, guys. Any build could work since it's such a high level (actually level 36 o.o). I like to experiment with things on my STF, and 7 ath is just so fun and quick already. Took a week-long break, but I hope to get to one of those dream builds in a few months.

Chaos-most-NA-admins-and-level-36s-clan
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Taser on June 26, 2013, 06:16:42 am
Thanks for the input, guys. Any build could work since it's such a high level (actually level 36 o.o). I like to experiment with things on my STF, and 7 ath is just so fun and quick already. Took a week-long break, but I hope to get to one of those dream builds in a few months.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on June 26, 2013, 06:35:17 am
Possible with almost 3 years of exp. I only retired twice. 600k-1mil+ from a strat battle also helps. I still have 80 million left, which will take ~4-6 months.

I think I want to try out 21/24 at this point. I might change my mind.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 26, 2013, 07:12:48 am
I just realized that you could do the following build at 36:

21 Strength
21 Agility

70 HP

7 Ironflesh
7 Power Strike
7 Shield
7 Athletics
7 Weapon Master

Super clean, and maximizes skill point usage for your attribute spread.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on June 26, 2013, 08:18:46 am
I was purposefully ambiguous on my first post, but I was deciding between 21/21, 24/21, and 21/24 for lvl 36. It appears 6&7 shield skill do make a large difference, and it's not really worth the 1-2 points in IF. I know that sounds obvious, but having HP >65 just looked more reassuring, although I know in practice it won't amount to much without maxing it.

21/21 would be as you described above. It indeed sounds great, but it's level 36 man. I could make something a bit more fun to mess around with. Even if I screw up and hate it, I could respec to 35 and just make a 24/18 version of my current 25/15.

For the others...
(click to show/hide)

21/21 is safe and great, but there's something alluring about those other builds, since I know it's just not possible with levels under 36, while level 35 can have a competent 21/21 build.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 26, 2013, 08:44:05 am
I'll avoid doing the 21/24 build because 7 Athletics should be plenty for you.

If and when the WPF/WM change comes along, 21/21 would be your best bet. If there were no WPF/WM changes planned, then I would wholeheartedly recommend something like this:

Level 36

24 Strength
21 Agility

75 Health

8 Ironflesh
8 Power Strike
6 Shield
7 Athletics
0 Weapon Master


But since we know that WM will actually be useful/necessary to single proficiency melee builds, this wouldn't be viable upon that change.

Then you have to grapple with what to cut. Max Power Strike and Max Athletics is a given, but how do you split up 14 points between 3 skills that would cap out at 22 points? You could go for 7 Shield and 7 Weapon Master, but then you'd be left with 0 Ironflesh and 59 HP, which isn't really optimal. If you want to have a nice round 65 HP, then you would take 3 Ironflesh. You would presumably also want at least 4 Shield, if not 5 for Huscarls, which would let WM hit 7 or 6.

So this build looks like:

Level 36

24 Strength
21 Agility

65 Health

3 Ironflesh
8 Power Strike
4/5 Shield
7 Athletics
7/6 Weapon Master

vs.

Level 36

21 Strength
21 Agility

70 Health

7 Ironflesh
7 Power Strike
7 Shield
7 Athletics
7 Weapon Master

So the first build gives an extra 8% damage but trades 5 HP, 2 or 3 Shield Skill's worth of coverage increase and damage mitigation, and possibly 1 WM worth of WPF. The first build maximizes the damage you can do, but trades a great deal of survivability that can't be directly compared to 8% more damage. 5 HP is a great deal; that could be the difference between death and surviving one more blow. The extra shield skill could mean the difference between getting shot in the foot or force fielding it into the nether.

This is basically the decision you have to make: do you want an extra 8% damage or a 7.7% increase in health plus the force-fielding and reinforcing of your shield? Since you know how I like to build theorycraft, you'll know that I always say "dead people cannot deal any damage"

And to address your concern that "It's level 36: I could do something marvelous with my extra points" think of it this way: You would be one of the few people to make full use of your skill points. Your build would be maximally efficient. You would be productively using 35! skill points. That in itself is amazingly marvelous.

Edit: I realized that 21 Strength and 7 Ironflesh only gives 70 HP, not 75 as I first thought. The difference of 5 HP between the two builds definitely makes choosing much more difficult!
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on June 26, 2013, 11:53:35 pm
Possible with almost 3 years of exp. I only retired twice. 600k-1mil+ from a strat battle also helps. I still have 80 million left, which will take ~4-6 months.

I think I want to try out 21/24 at this point. I might change my mind.

Ignore Rhaelys, he is str my old friend.

24 Agi is the minimum for a good shielder cause 8ath is fucking amazing. It just gets better though! I decided to go for 15/27 for my 35 build! You could always do 18/24 for your 36 and just pump the IF up.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Falka on June 27, 2013, 12:22:44 am
Having 59 or even 56 hp at lvl 36 is just wrong  :wink:

"dead people cannot deal any damage"
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Taser on June 27, 2013, 06:18:55 am
Possible with almost 3 years of exp. I only retired twice. 600k-1mil+ from a strat battle also helps. I still have 80 million left, which will take ~4-6 months.

I think I want to try out 21/24 at this point. I might change my mind.

I'm just surprised you're actually considering it. I mean lvl 35 is insane by itself. I mean next we'll have canary saying he's going to 37 for shits and giggles at his gen 1.

But if you're shooting for it, good luck. I would do 21/21 with maxed stats like rhaelys pointed out or 21/24 myself at that high a level. I've found that agi serves shielders far better than str for surviving. But I got to admit I rocked the 24/18 build a while ago and loved the fuck out of it. I did dislike the lower ath I had with it but 21/21 was a nice balance with lots of hitting power and decent ath to chase people down.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 27, 2013, 02:24:23 pm
I just got to level 34 tell me if you think this was smart:

Level 34 (before adding attributes/skills):

21/18

2 IF
7 Power Strike
5 Shield
6 Athletics
6 Riding
6 Weapon Master

I could have went for a 24/18 (with 8 powerstrike) at level 35 build...which was tempting, but it's another 100 million xp before I would hit 35 (not sure that will happen, and if it did, it would be another 6+ months)

So instead, I decided to convert the attribute into two skill points, and dumped 3 skills into IF, bringing me up to 5 IF...was that the right move?
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 27, 2013, 10:05:42 pm
I just got to level 34 tell me if you think this was smart:

Level 34 (before adding attributes/skills):

21/18

2 IF
7 Power Strike
5 Shield
6 Athletics
6 Riding
6 Weapon Master

I could have went for a 24/18 (with 8 powerstrike) at level 35 build...which was tempting, but it's another 100 million xp before I would hit 35 (not sure that will happen, and if it did, it would be another 6+ months)

So instead, I decided to convert the attribute into two skill points, and dumped 3 skills into IF, bringing me up to 5 IF...was that the right move?

Yes. Since you're taking riding, you benefit from having additional skill points. Converting for 24 Strength would strain your skill point pool too much.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Phew on June 27, 2013, 10:55:10 pm
...was that the right move?

You chose 10% more defense now over 8% more offense like a year from now, seems like a good choice to me. Almost every build ends up with a choice between 7 IF and 3 more str+1 more PS. So you're talking like 20-25% more defense vs. 8% more offense. Unless you play in cloth (and get 1-shot by everyone anyway), it seems like a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on June 28, 2013, 02:53:42 am
was that the right move?

To put real numbers into perspective, going for a 24/18 build would have given you 1 extra Power Strike but forced you to sacrifice 7 skill points. Those skill points could be 5 IF + 2 WM, reducing your health by 7 and your available Weapon Proficiency Points by 150. That might not normally be an unfavorable trade, but you are also cav, and if I remember correctly you have more than one weapon proficiency, which greatly increases the value of having an extra 2 WM.

Converting extra skill points to attribute points can sometimes be a reasonable path, but usually in limited circumstances (ie only sacrificing Ironflesh or WM w/ 1 melee proficiency for 3 Strength (which = 3 HP) and 1 more PS... although with WPF/WM changes it will be more important to invest as many points into WM as your build allows).
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on July 04, 2013, 07:41:03 am
It's been a few days, and I decided to switch my STF from 18/21 with ~50 body armor to 15/24 65 body armor. Weight was increased by 10, which simulates an increase of 5 weight in armor and a 5 weight shield to compare what my main will be using, increasing from 55 body armor to 64 body armor. Even with 2IF and 15 strength, 54Hp, I was tanking quite a few hits. The 8ath allowed me high levels of control, even with higher armor. I feel 7ath and high armor might not be as fast as I want, since I want to be comparatively faster than my opponent, not the same/less speed, although I still haven't tested that yet.

It was safe to say that my performance more than doubled. My 18/21 with medium/low body armor had a KD of 2.5:1, and after the last 5 maps, my 15:24 with high armor had 5.8:1. The higher weight didn't change the great amount of acceleration I had. Being able to manipulate speed bonus on myself with high armor really helped mitigate a lot of damage. 21/24 on my main is looking quite great now, despite the low Hp, although I would only be able to increase shield skill to 6 at most.

Right now, 21/24 > 24/21 >>> 21/21. 2 Shield skill + 7-11 Hp doesn't compete with avoiding more attacks and killing enemies with less swings. Since shield skill doesn't affect melee forcefield, higher ath allows me to catch archers, and higher armor reduces arrow damage if I do get shot in a blind spot. Of course, 21/21 is the most future-proof if any changes occur to IF and shield. So in the end, kudos to Matey and Rustyspoon in the agi shielder lobby.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: NuberT on July 04, 2013, 08:08:10 am
Ignore Rhaelys, he is str my old friend.

24 Agi is the minimum for a good shielder cause 8ath is fucking amazing. It just gets better though! I decided to go for 15/27 for my 35 build! You could always do 18/24 for your 36 and just pump the IF up.

this. Sadly I didnt had the balls to go for 15/27 after my respec, so its only 18/24, but I am very certain, that effectivity will be pretty much the same while 15/27 would be way more fun.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on July 04, 2013, 10:02:39 am
It's been a few days, and I decided to switch my STF from 18/21 with ~50 body armor to 15/24 65 body armor. Weight was increased by 10, which simulates an increase of 5 weight in armor and a 5 weight shield to compare what my main will be using, increasing from 55 body armor to 64 body armor. Even with 2IF and 15 strength, 54Hp, I was tanking quite a few hits. The 8ath allowed me high levels of control, even with higher armor. I feel 7ath and high armor might not be as fast as I want, since I want to be comparatively faster than my opponent, not the same/less speed, although I still haven't tested that yet.

It was safe to say that my performance more than doubled. My 18/21 with medium/low body armor had a KD of 2.5:1, and after the last 5 maps, my 15:24 with high armor had 5.8:1. The higher weight didn't change the great amount of acceleration I had. Being able to manipulate speed bonus on myself with high armor really helped mitigate a lot of damage. 21/24 on my main is looking quite great now, despite the low Hp, although I would only be able to increase shield skill to 6 at most.

Right now, 21/24 > 24/21 >>> 21/21. 2 Shield skill + 7-11 Hp doesn't compete with avoiding more attacks and killing enemies with less swings. Since shield skill doesn't affect melee forcefield, higher ath allows me to catch archers, and higher armor reduces arrow damage if I do get shot in a blind spot. Of course, 21/21 is the most future-proof if any changes occur to IF and shield. So in the end, kudos to Matey and Rustyspoon in the agi shielder lobby.

I still think you are crazy for wearing that much armour though! Embrace the joy of running around in blue pajamas and hacking hapless archers apart!
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Erzengel on July 04, 2013, 03:38:13 pm
this. Sadly I didnt had the balls to go for 15/27 after my respec, so its only 18/24, but I am very certain, that effectivity will be pretty much the same while 15/27 would be way more fun.

I respecced from 18/24 to 15/27 a while ago. 15/27 is awesome for battle/siege, but really sucks in strategus imho. 18/24 is nice because it allows you to make good use of medium/heavy armor if you have some IF. You can also use most swords. 15/27 is limited to much fewer weapons. Just get 8 shield skill and a Steel Buckler and you won't notice a huge difference compared to 15/27. Both are awesome builds, though. :)
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Turboflex on July 04, 2013, 04:44:22 pm
pfft agi for catching archers? that's what jarids are for.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on July 04, 2013, 06:55:58 pm
Then at 36 you could do the following 21/24 build:

60 HP

2 IF (1 if you took 5 shield)
7 PS
4 Shield (5 if you're a Huscarl puutie like Matey)
8 Athletics
8 WM

177 1H WPF
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Lannistark on July 04, 2013, 07:04:12 pm
I'm on level 30 with my 21/15 build, 5 shield skill 5 WM and a Heavy Round Shield. I have to say it feels pretty fast and gives great coverage. Blocks come in quick, feints are swift, and I'm pretty much safe from arrows and bolts coming from either side.

I haven't tried raising the shield skill, so I can't really tell. Regardless I'm really contempt with 5 shield skill.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on July 04, 2013, 07:49:21 pm
Then at 36 you could do the following 21/24 build:

60 HP

2 IF
7 PS
4 Shield
8 Athletics
8 WM


177 1H WPF

4 shield? are you mad? you couldn't even lift a huscarl! Get out of here polearm user! get!
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Rhaelys on July 04, 2013, 08:39:53 pm
4 shield? are you mad? you couldn't even lift a huscarl! Get out of here polearm user! get!

fixed
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Zanze on July 05, 2013, 04:54:11 pm
May be a little late to the party...but...

21/21 is a hot build for any class. No need to sacrifice all your stats for an extra PS pts, especially when you are someone like San who has no problem getting extra hits in. I almost never got shot around the shield, but I do have instances where 2h's glitch their animations and start their swings behind me shield. But I guess something like that really cant be avoided. (So I recommend Rhaelys' build, first post, second page)

Other than that, it seems you noticed the niftiest trick on how to best use speed bonus. Avoiding damage, and dealing stupid amounts of it. Just shh, don't let the masses of 2h heroes figure that out. You can use speed bonus effectively starting at 18 agi+, imo, and it is at a good balance at 21 agi. I think 24 agi is a tad overkill for NA servers, though many will disagree.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 05, 2013, 11:24:12 pm
I really liked having 24 agi / 8 ath because I could zip across the map and save someone who was in a losing fight against the enemy team. Helping your teamates survive is a great way to get to x5 multiplier!  :wink:

At 8 shield skill you pretty much never have to worry about it breaking. I'd only go that high if you are taking a smaller shield though. 6 or 7 should be enough with a round or heater shield.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Konrax on July 06, 2013, 12:27:12 am
6 Shield is ideal for knightly heater / elite cav shield because it makes them nearly instant.
7 Shield is nearly the same speed with a heavy round shield.
8 Shield is nearly the same speed with a huscarl shield.

Skill does nothing to help with catching arrows or swings as far as I know.

Higher shield only allows you to use larger coverage shields effectively imho.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Turboflex on July 06, 2013, 08:22:05 pm
Someone's gotta go against the grain here

Level 35 (142 278 448 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 12
Converted: 4
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 4
Athletics: 4
Power Throw: 5
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 118
Throwing: 104

The club can't even handle me right now
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on July 06, 2013, 09:12:15 pm
Someone's gotta go against the grain here

Level 35 (142 278 448 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 12
Converted: 4
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 4
Athletics: 4
Power Throw: 5
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 118
Throwing: 104

The club can't even handle me right now

Filthy str crutching blasphemous heathen shielder! BURN!!!!
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Taser on July 06, 2013, 09:25:27 pm
And I felt dirty with 24 str a few gens back as shielder... damn turbo.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Erzengel on July 06, 2013, 09:44:06 pm
Someone's gotta go against the grain here

Level 35 (142 278 448 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 12
Converted: 4
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 4
Athletics: 4
Power Throw: 5
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 118
Throwing: 104

The club can't even handle me right now

No maxed out Power Strike? Why did you go for 30 strength then? Fail build.  :P
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Turboflex on July 06, 2013, 10:12:38 pm
Oh yeah 10 PS, 5 IF then

Im 24-15 now, but Im tempted to do that at 35.

I did 24-12 until 33 and it was fine.

With throwing I don't need much athletics, I just throw at anyone trying to s-key me and they go back to W key real fast. +3 heavy round doesn't break much even at 4 shield.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Falka on July 07, 2013, 01:19:25 am
Then at 36 you could do the following 21/24 build:

60 HP

2 IF (1 if you took 5 shield)
7 PS
4 Shield (5 if you're a Huscarl puutie like Matey)
8 Athletics
8 WM

177 1H WPF

Is wpf really that useful? At lvl 36 he can has:
Level: 36
Health Points: 70
Weapon Proficiency Points: 2

Strength: 21
Agility: 24

One Handed: 139

Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 4
Athletics: 8
Weapon Master: 3

10 hp more for 38 wpf (and even less effective wpf)...
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: San on July 07, 2013, 05:54:06 am
Without the wpf, I lose a point in powerstrike and a good amount of swing speed. I got outswung a ton with 131 wpf, and on my stf with 172, the difference is night and day. It allows the slower blunt weapons to swing nearly as fast as the cut weapons, with much better earlier hits.

My 15/24 stf is working out so well, I decided I will do 18/27 over 21/24. With 66 body armor and 54 hp, I was tanking more hits (and avoiding even more) than my 76 hp main in 56 body armor.

Let's say each point in athletics + 3 agi allows you to maintain the same speed with 7.5 more weight.

Let's also say a competitive speed to be fast is 7ath with 15 total weight. 9ath will let me wear 15 more weight of armor, especially since a lot of that original 15 weight consisted of weapons/boots/helmets/gloves that won't change the weight that much. That's the difference between tunic over mail and the heaviest of plate. Not to mention the acceleration stays great, and PS past 6 isn't affected by blunt weapons too much.

The massive amount of wpf will keep my damage high. 5 shield is better than 5 IF, so 2h variants may be worse since they just get shot up. 18 strength is also the minimum for all the heaviest armor and gear outside of the great maul.

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 27
    Hit points: 53

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 9
    Weapon Master: 9

    One Handed: 185

With a blunt weapon and a sword, consistent damage will be made. It can easily catch archers while running in plate, and deal good amounts of damage with blunt. If there is a knockdown, a held attack+speed bonus can deal multiples of damage of a normal swing. Held attacks are easier to land in general with higher ath. Good armor + speed bonus manipulation helps mitigate damage. Hoplite weapons can be used with 1wpf if sorely needed against cav. Weaknesses are getting hit by blunt weapons or getting knocked down. I learned that I don't need exorbitant amounts of speed, just competitive levels of 6-7ath medium armor is more than fast enough.

185 wpf? Utter insanity, I must do this. Moving faster than infantry with gothic plate with bevor? Priceless.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 07, 2013, 08:41:10 am
That's pretty much my dream 1H/shield build. Looks like a lot of fun. 6 PS and 9 Ath would also let you pull some hilarious dagger combat if you wore light mail or cloth armor.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Erzengel on July 07, 2013, 10:15:07 am
Without the wpf, I lose a point in powerstrike and a good amount of swing speed. I got outswung a ton with 131 wpf, and on my stf with 172, the difference is night and day. It allows the slower blunt weapons to swing nearly as fast as the cut weapons, with much better earlier hits.

My 15/24 stf is working out so well, I decided I will do 18/27 over 21/24. With 66 body armor and 54 hp, I was tanking more hits (and avoiding even more) than my 76 hp main in 56 body armor.

Let's say each point in athletics + 3 agi allows you to maintain the same speed with 7.5 more weight.

Let's also say a competitive speed to be fast is 7ath with 15 total weight. 9ath will let me wear 15 more weight of armor, especially since a lot of that original 15 weight consisted of weapons/boots/helmets/gloves that won't change the weight that much. That's the difference between tunic over mail and the heaviest of plate. Not to mention the acceleration stays great, and PS past 6 isn't affected by blunt weapons too much.

The massive amount of wpf will keep my damage high. 5 shield is better than 5 IF, so 2h variants may be worse since they just get shot up. 18 strength is also the minimum for all the heaviest armor and gear outside of the great maul.

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 27
    Hit points: 53

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 9
    Weapon Master: 9

    One Handed: 185

With a blunt weapon and a sword, consistent damage will be made. It can easily catch archers while running in plate, and deal good amounts of damage with blunt. If there is a knockdown, a held attack+speed bonus can deal multiples of damage of a normal swing. Held attacks are easier to land in general with higher ath. Good armor + speed bonus manipulation helps mitigate damage. Hoplite weapons can be used with 1wpf if sorely needed against cav. Weaknesses are getting hit by blunt weapons or getting knocked down. I learned that I don't need exorbitant amounts of speed, just competitive levels of 6-7ath medium armor is more than fast enough.

185 wpf? Utter insanity, I must do this. Moving faster than infantry with gothic plate with bevor? Priceless.

Not sure if the Gothic Plate or any other heavy armor is worth it with only 53 hit points. I am using 15/27 with 0 Iron Flesh and it hardly makes a difference. Have to test it again for a while, though.

Edit: Ok, changed my opinion. It is great. :) Especially versus one handed cut weapons. Really funny to outrun most people while using plate armor.

I am still not 100% confident of your build. It is very nice, but I think that 18/24 could be better.

Level: 36

Stength: 18
Agility: 24
Hit points: 63

Iron Flesh: 5
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 8
Athletics: 8
Weapon Master: 8

One Handed: 177

3 Agility and 1 less Athletics means that you can use 7.5 less weight compared to 18/27 while maintaining the same movement speed. You will also lose 1 Weapon Master.

Therefor you get 5 Iron Flesh (10 hit points) and 3 more Shield.

With 5 Shield you will most likely use one of the heavy shields (7.7 weight or more). Most other shields with less weight just break too fast with only 5 Shield. 8 Shield allows you to use the Steel Buckler instead. It only has 3.5 weight. So the "weight difference" between both builds is only between 3.8 (Plate Covered Round Shields) and 1 (Heavy Board Shield). Even if you use Knightly Kite/Heater Shield it is "only" 5 weight and those are clearly inferior compared to Steel Buckler with 8 Shield.

So you are only slightly slower, get 10 extra hit points (which make a huge difference if you use heavy armor), a much better shield and you have more options regarding the slot system.

I have tested this build on a STF with 16/24, 0 Iron Flesh, 0 Weapon Master. My equipment was: +3 Winged Mace, +3 Steel Buckler, +3 Hourglass Gauntlets, +3 Cased Greaves, +0 Gothic Plate with Bevor and +0 Sallet with Visor.

It was awesome, even with those items. With +12 Hit points, +1 Power Strike, +8 Weapon Master, +8 body armor, +10 head armor and perhaps a better weapon (Spathovaklion or Warhammer) it will be just brutal.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on July 08, 2013, 09:02:00 pm
I dunno if I like the idea of converting so much to reach 18/27... you have such low shield skill! I also think your goal to keep throwing on more armour to offset whatever new speed you have gained is madness! you gotta try runnin around in a gambeson for awhile with high athletics! sure you die easy if you get hit but the speed! it is such a huge huge difference having all that speed! I don't get how you can say that your agi/ath is offsetting weight, I always feel ridiculously slow as soon as i put on 10+ weight worth of armour with my current 8ath 26agi.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Turboflex on July 08, 2013, 09:28:04 pm
I spent a few gens in a tribal warrior outfit. The problem is not dieing from enemies, it's from teammates and horsebumps. Matey you like to run around solo on flanks, which is fine, and you avoid the teammate hazard and you have room to dodge horses, but frontline shielders take a serious beating from teammates, 55+ armor stacking with the 50% dmg reduction for friendly hits really helps mitigate that a lot. My kill ratio really improved when I switched from armor from leather to the heavier side of medium.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Matey on July 08, 2013, 10:31:47 pm
I spent a few gens in a tribal warrior outfit. The problem is not dieing from enemies, it's from teammates and horsebumps. Matey you like to run around solo on flanks, which is fine, and you avoid the teammate hazard and you have room to dodge horses, but frontline shielders take a serious beating from teammates, 55+ armor stacking with the 50% dmg reduction for friendly hits really helps mitigate that a lot. My kill ratio really improved when I switched from armor from leather to the heavier side of medium.

I didn't always avoid teammates... but I learned to. I do put on armour in strat fights when I have to be in the big melee mash up... But I usually feel slow and sluggish and still get killed by teammates and random hits and so on. I would agree that heavy armour is worth it in strat though... but in battle?! Run off on the side and murder those poor little ranged guys. p.s. fuck cav.
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2013, 04:31:34 pm
Stop face hugging the enemy and running around in circles, you won't get team hit as much (and cav can actually help you). 
Title: Re: Forcefield from 5->7 shield skill and build advice
Post by: Vodner on July 09, 2013, 05:51:52 pm
Quote
I didn't always avoid teammates... but I learned to. I do put on armour in strat fights when I have to be in the big melee mash up... But I usually feel slow and sluggish and still get killed by teammates and random hits and so on. I would agree that heavy armour is worth it in strat though... but in battle?! Run off on the side and murder those poor little ranged guys. p.s. fuck cav.
One or two guys running off to fight on the flanks is useful. Too many more, and your team ends up undermanned for the big, battle-deciding melee that usually occurs on most maps.

Quote
Stop face hugging the enemy and running around in circles, you won't get team hit as much (and cav can actually help you).
Frontline shielders will always get teamwounded, no matter what they do. It just goes with the gig.