cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lt_Anders on June 07, 2013, 06:05:47 am

Title: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 07, 2013, 06:05:47 am
Look at that ranged....
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on June 07, 2013, 07:15:53 am
Fear it, shieldless open field rushers.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Carac on June 07, 2013, 07:51:43 am
stop bitching about ranged and get a shield

like, i dont see the fucking problem. if you don't like getting shot in a game with ranged, get a goddamn shield. put down the fucking 2h
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 07, 2013, 08:33:31 am
stop bitching about ranged and get a shield

This argument has been proven to be invalid, and yet people keep repeating it...
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Bronto on June 07, 2013, 09:16:02 am
This argument has been proven to be invalid, and yet people keep repeating it...

Stop bitching about this argument. Get a shield and block it.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 07, 2013, 09:46:33 am
Stop bitching about this argument. Get a shield and block it.

And you better stop shielding about that bitch. Get a block and argument it.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Strudog on June 07, 2013, 10:13:17 am
Stop bitching about this argument. Get a shield and block it.

Get some melee skill and stop running my old friends, you archer my old friends complain you have no melee capabilities when you have some nice 0 slot swords and the ability to get PS
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Gristle on June 07, 2013, 10:14:05 am
They can nerf it all they want. We won't stop until they take our weapons from us.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Berserkadin on June 07, 2013, 10:28:05 am
Get a shield, bunch up with other people using shields, get some agi-shielders who can hunt down and flank ranged, use teamplay to defeat ranged using teamplay.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 07, 2013, 10:32:18 am
Get a shield, bunch up with other people using shields, get some agi-shielders who can hunt down and flank ranged, use teamplay to defeat ranged using teamplay.

Amount of teamwork needed for ranged: stand loosely next to each other and shoot whatever approaches.

Amount of teamwork needed for melee: keep formation, sort the formation by class, e.g. shielders in front, walk at the same speed, coordinate formation turns, in melee try to not hurt each other, once the first enemies are downed and the fight is over get in formation again.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Berserkadin on June 07, 2013, 10:37:06 am
Amount of teamwork needed for ranged: stand loosely next to each other and shoot whatever approaches.

Amount of teamwork needed for melee: keep formation, sort the formation by class, e.g. shielders in front, walk at the same speed, coordinate formation turns, in melee try to not hurt each other, once the first enemies are downed and the fight is over get in formation again.
It's not that fucking hard, for the avarege crpg player it seems to be extremely hard tough. Fuck how hard is it to stand behind shielders instead of running round like a retard? You make it sound like we're dealing with nuclear engineering.

But yeah, the preferred action in crpg is to run around, get shot down and cry on forums, instead of just trying to use some sort of teamplay and tactics.

I play melee btw.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on June 07, 2013, 10:43:48 am
Get some melee skill and stop running my old friends, you archer my old friends complain you have no melee capabilities when you have some nice 0 slot swords and the ability to get PS

Its comments like that that make me join a server with my xbower and shotgun people just to run away afterwards to reload. If they catch up I drop my melee weapon to run away even faster.
Get a hunting xbow and bolts and get some fuckin ranged skills, you dont even have to invest points in it you melee my old friends. You complain you cannot counter ranged but everybody who uses only 2 slots CAN grab a fuckin hunting xbow and shoot back or shoot after a running ranged guy. If you have only 1 slot get throwing knives or stones to slow us down. It works, you just dont use it.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Berserkadin on June 07, 2013, 10:46:27 am
Short Nordic War Sword + 2 stacks of steel bolts + Heavy Xbow = Best Build. 1h/xbow best melee/ranged hybrid.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 07, 2013, 10:55:20 am
Fuck how hard is it to stand behind shielders instead of running round like a retard? You make it sound like we're dealing with nuclear engineering.

Standing behind a shielder is not the problem. But unfortunately melee players have to move to reach their target so they can kill it. Which means you have to move behind a moving shielder, which is a lot more difficult, especially without TS. And a single shielder only covers like 10-20° in front of you, not the whole 180° you'd need most of the time. So you need more shielders than one to be covered properly, and those shielder have to move in formation to not open any gaps where ranged can just shoot between the shielder into the group of shieldless players.

It's not nuclear engineering, I'd rather place it somewhere around the difficulty level of micro engineering.

Edit: does the Roman testudo tell you something? Any formation which is less perfect than this one will only cause more problems instead of helping, as the chances for missing your target are even lower.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Gristle on June 07, 2013, 11:00:26 am
2 stacks of steel bolts

Stop doing this. You should never need more than 13 bolts per round.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Ronin on June 07, 2013, 11:04:10 am
AGI builds are better for field battles. STR builds are more favorable in sieges. This is one of the reasons for it. If you have good athletics you'll be able to dodge more easily and reach the enemy archers more easily.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on June 07, 2013, 11:09:14 am
Short Nordic War Sword + 2 stacks of steel bolts + Heavy Xbow = Best Build. 1h/xbow best melee/ranged hybrid.

2 stacks of steel bolts are too heavy. 1 stack should be enough for 95% of battle rounds. I hardly run out of ammo.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Kafein on June 07, 2013, 11:34:42 am
Fear it, shieldless open field rushers.

I invite you to grab a shield and try to do ANYTHING in OP's image.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Henry_Broodsonson on June 07, 2013, 12:09:47 pm
Look at that ranged....
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Berserkadin on June 07, 2013, 12:24:30 pm
2 stacks of steel bolts are too heavy. 1 stack should be enough for 95% of battle rounds. I hardly run out of ammo.
True, might aswell use an awesome 1her with 1 slot instead.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Gristle on June 07, 2013, 12:28:47 pm
True, might aswell use an awesome 1her with 1 slot instead.

Or a shield. People in this thread apparently hate shields (I do understand why), but mine helps me most of the time.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 07, 2013, 01:06:46 pm
cry cry cry bitch bitch bitch. This community needs to grow a pair.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 07, 2013, 01:18:40 pm
cry cry cry bitch bitch bitch. This community needs to grow a pair.

A pair of melee weapons.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Tibe on June 07, 2013, 01:24:11 pm
It's not that fucking hard, for the avarege crpg player it seems to be extremely hard tough. Fuck how hard is it to stand behind shielders instead of running round like a retard? You make it sound like we're dealing with nuclear engineering.

But yeah, the preferred action in crpg is to run around, get shot down and cry on forums, instead of just trying to use some sort of teamplay and tactics.

I play melee btw.
You with your nonsense again. Every time you write this "use teamplay, get behind shields" stuff, it seems like you never played crpg before, but read it in a book somewhere once.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 07, 2013, 03:14:00 pm
Funny all the nerf, buff users. I Just made that post cause all the ranged got auto stacked to one team.

Trust me, shield didn't help, at all. The bastards kept plinking my horse so fast didn't even get a chance to run a minute with it.

Go ahead and continue with your useless, nerf & buff talk...
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Henry_Broodsonson on June 07, 2013, 03:17:39 pm
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 07, 2013, 03:22:31 pm
I'm a 2h archers are ruining my fun, NERF ARCHERS!

I'm an archer, cavalry are ruining my fun, NERF CAVALRY!

I'm cavalry, throwers are ruining my fun, NERF THROWING!

I'm a shielder, 2h's are ruining my fun, NERF 2h!

I'm a hoplite, 1h's with nudge are ruining my fun, NERF NUDGE!

Stop bitching you whiney bitches.  The classes are fine, the team balance is the problem that would have resolved most of the QQ threads from the past 2 years.  Ask the knights of Agincourt if archers should be nerfed, they'll tell you "of course".  But that's not how warfare works, you need to adapt.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Ulmarth on June 07, 2013, 04:15:00 pm
Looks like the Battle servers need more kinngrimm style builds and cav xD
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on June 07, 2013, 04:24:26 pm
I have a dream that one day this mod will rise up, and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all classes are created equal.’
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Calradia the sons of former archers and the sons of former 2h heroes will be able to play together on a server of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the clan of Kapikulu, a clan sweltering with the heat of injustice and sweltering with the heat of teamkilling, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little alts will one day live in a mod where they will not be judged by the shape of their weapon but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 07, 2013, 04:25:04 pm
Get a shield. And if thats not enough go agi shielder, can chase down archers easily, use speedy footwork to avoid getting surrounded by archers. Seriously if you have a shield and get shot on a regular basis you are doign something wrong.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Kafein on June 07, 2013, 04:27:01 pm
I'm a 2h archers are ruining my fun, NERF ARCHERS!

I'm an archer, cavalry are ruining my fun, NERF CAVALRY!

I'm cavalry, throwers are ruining my fun, NERF THROWING!

I'm a shielder, 2h's are ruining my fun, NERF 2h!

I'm a hoplite, 1h's with nudge are ruining my fun, NERF NUDGE!

Stop bitching you whiney bitches.  The classes are fine, the team balance is the problem that would have resolved most of the QQ threads from the past 2 years.  Ask the knights of Agincourt if archers should be nerfed, they'll tell you "of course".  But that's not how warfare works, you need to adapt.

Personally it's more like

I'm 2h => NERF ARCHERS
I'm pole => NERF ARCHERS
I'm dedicated pikeman => NERF ARCHERS
I'm shielder (see the evolution ?) => NERF ARCHERS
I'm lancer (shields didn't work, let's try something else) => NERF ARCHERS
I'm 1h/thrower with shield (really ought to be dedicated to this) => NERF ARCHERS

And when I say nerf, I really mean making them less of a chore to "fight" against.


Get a shield. And if thats not enough go agi shielder, can chase down archers easily, use speedy footwork to avoid getting surrounded by archers. Seriously if you have a shield and get shot on a regular basis you are doign something wrong.

No, it means you aren't experienced enough and still trying to do something about archers.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Tibe on June 07, 2013, 04:30:10 pm
Frankly i agree with cracka. Ranged arent much of a threat when they are few and they stand little to no chance against a shielder who is facehugging or 2h who is in slashingrange. So nothing to nerf here.

Problems start when there is like 10 of them all together as a blob freely shooting anything they see into dust and backpedaling away.  You cant do much to fix this. So im not in favor of any nerfs. But berserkadins "suggestions" to use tactics and imagine that shieldwall is the ultimate tactic is based on movielogic, not crpglogic.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Necrorave on June 07, 2013, 04:33:33 pm
Frankly i agree with cracka. Ranged arent much of a threat when they are few and they stand little to no chance against a shielder who is facehugging or 2h who is in slashingrange. So nothing to nerf here.

Problems start when there is like 10 of them all together as a blob freely shooting anything they see into dust and backpedaling away.  You cant do much to fix this. So im not in favor of any nerfs. But berserkadins "suggestions" to use tactics and imagine that shieldwall is the ultimate tactic is based on movielogic, not crpglogic.

10 of anything is a problem.  Majority of people that post to nerf or buff something are just trying to help themselves.  Very rarely do people post a honest fix a balance issue.

Edit: 99 problems and all of them are bitching about ranged
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Paul on June 07, 2013, 04:35:30 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Necrorave on June 07, 2013, 04:39:06 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.

Nerf wooden stick.  If I don't block it hits me.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Macropus on June 07, 2013, 04:57:29 pm
Having a shield helps much more than having 10 athletics (and I know what I'm talking about), so put these 3-4 fucking skillpoints into shield and be happy. Don't expect it to make you immune to any projectiles though, it's not supposed to.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Rumblood on June 07, 2013, 05:59:58 pm
I invite you to grab a shield and try to do ANYTHING in OP's image.

There's your problem right there. I see he counted 11 ranged in the picture and you think a shield is supposed to make you suddenly overcome those odds? Unless you grab a shield and 10 of your teammates, I don't see how you can expect to do ANYTHING.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 07, 2013, 06:01:33 pm
Get out of here with your logic pappy, this will be your only warning.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 07, 2013, 07:03:08 pm
Funny all the nerf, buff users. I Just made that post cause all the ranged got auto stacked to one team.

Trust me, shield didn't help, at all. The bastards kept plinking my horse so fast didn't even get a chance to run a minute with it.

Go ahead and continue with your useless, nerf & buff talk...

Yeah I was there for this on an alt for a few rounds. Was hilarious. The ranged was literally just wiping people out, they were basically a moving firing line executing each person they came upon. I remember there was a shielder they ran into, and they all began firing into him. In a time frame of about 2 seconds, his shield was hit like 4 or 5 times, broke, and then he was hit another 3 or so times and died. It was awesome in a fucked up sort of way lol.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Juhanius on June 07, 2013, 07:12:58 pm
Just make agishielder and ranged  can´t do shit.  :arrow: I have tested it.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Torost on June 07, 2013, 08:57:24 pm
The wise counter to massed range is to stay away.

Atleast for as long as possible.
If ranged camp a certain hill or roof of a building, just stay away from them.

Let you friendly ranged and cav deal with them.

That means do not go running solo on foot towards massed ranged, it is suicide every time.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 07, 2013, 09:33:38 pm
The wise counter to massed range is to stay away.

Atleast for as long as possible.
If ranged camp a certain hill or roof of a building, just stay away from them.

Let you friendly ranged and cav deal with them.

That means do not go running solo on foot towards massed ranged, it is suicide every time.

On the map I have posted, good luck.
We did win twice, so it was 4-2 or so. But it was insane. I took that pic from the nearly billion ranged(mostly archers, but a decent few xbows too)
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Thomek on June 07, 2013, 09:45:34 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.

I disagree with this thinking, although I think archers are in a good spot atm. I often see high level, good archers make very high K:D ratios, while the majority really sucks. (Could be a problem with the scaling of the archer with levels and looms..)

The thing is, gameplay for the majority should trump balance decisions like this, not power or round impact, although they are intimately connected.

In my opinion, control in the sense that your choices and skill as a player determine whether you live or die or kill, is extremely important to gameplay. The main elements taking away control, perhaps you can call them "skill nullifiers" are ranged and especially unavoidable ranged like HX and sniper xbows (Which doesn't give you a second chance very often).

While fighting, cav can be another unavoidable skill nullifier, both with bumps, slashes and couches. (But cav is situational and not without weakness)

Now, most serious games contain skill nullifiers, but they are often made not too powerful, or numbers are kept down somehow, or they kill the fun of others.

So what I think:
* Classes that take away choice and skill from other classes should be kept down or be less effective.
* In cRPG this means ranged and cav, even though they prey on each other.

The result is a game where players to a larger extent can control their fate, less bumps, less random ranged, more teamplay in the form of hoplites/infantry spearmen, and LESS SEEMINGLY RANDOM CRAP.

(from infantry perspective, cav and ranged are in a much better position to control their fates.. )
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Nemeth on June 07, 2013, 09:47:17 pm
Yeah I was there for this on an alt for a few rounds. Was hilarious. The ranged was literally just wiping people out, they were basically a moving firing line executing each person they came upon. I remember there was a shielder they ran into, and they all began firing into him. In a time frame of about 2 seconds, his shield was hit like 4 or 5 times, broke, and then he was hit another 3 or so times and died. It was awesome in a fucked up sort of way lol.

Isn't it funny how 11 ranged characters can tear up people who run into them one by one? Totally doesn't happen when I run into a mob of 11 melee guys all by myself. I just swing left and right with my mace and they all fall down dead.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 07, 2013, 10:07:31 pm
Says Thomek, the ninja who can't be arsed to try and use teamwork.  AKA rambo 2h hero on the edge of the map.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 07, 2013, 10:12:55 pm
There's your problem right there. I see he counted 11 ranged in the picture and you think a shield is supposed to make you suddenly overcome those odds? Unless you grab a shield and 10 of your teammates, I don't see how you can expect to do ANYTHING.
This is funny, cause back when kiting was still extremely viable you argued that one archer should be able to kill eleven 2h heroes, hypocrite.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 07, 2013, 10:15:33 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.
As long as you don't buff kiting, projectile speed, and somehow make shooting someone at point blank useless (as there is no way any guy without a shield can dodge that closely, and if he got a shield archers can still shoot through it early on), then I'm cool with double damage and accuracy.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 07, 2013, 10:19:16 pm
Just make agishielder and ranged  can´t do shit.  :arrow: I have tested it.

To be honest even an agi shielder would've been torn apart in this given situation. When there's that much ranged they will simply shoot at you from different sides and direction, you can't block every direction at once!  :wink:

Isn't it funny how 11 ranged characters can tear up people who run into them one by one? Totally doesn't happen when I run into a mob of 11 melee guys all by myself. I just swing left and right with my mace and they all fall down dead.

To be fair, if you're running into a group of 11 ranged characters by yourself, death is the only real outcome, if you're careless enough to take such an action you've already justified your imminent death.  :cry:

And as far as the melee thing goes, I really don't think it's a fair comparison. If you're running into a group of 11 melee players on your own, I'm 99% sure you're going to die. Shit if you run into 5 on your own you're most likely gonna die unless those 5 players are absolutely terrible.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 07, 2013, 10:24:04 pm
Yes and no sauce, I typically die after a little while if I'm in the middle of 5 enemies (with my sword and board), but I can usually last pretty long, and sometimes even have the chance of coming out alive.  I know that's certainly the case with some of the better shield/sword users (like San or Jrab or a dozen other guys). 

But I think pappy's analysis is the best.  You can't reasonably put yourself up against 11 of the enemy and expect to come out alive, whether they're all ranged, all 2h, or a mix of classes.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Thomek on June 07, 2013, 10:31:10 pm
Says Thomek, the ninja who can't be arsed to try and use teamwork.  AKA rambo 2h hero on the edge of the map.

You are very much mistaken. I think turning around, distracting, kiting, beating and backstabbing isolated elements is very important to the team. (I do it also because I can't stand clusterfucks..) To me this is controlling my game, and If I fuck up, its due to mistakes I did, contrary to the random mess that most players experience.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 07, 2013, 10:32:25 pm
Well you'd be wrong then, but thanks for playing
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 07, 2013, 11:11:34 pm
Yes and no sauce, I typically die after a little while if I'm in the middle of 5 enemies (with my sword and board), but I can usually last pretty long, and sometimes even have the chance of coming out alive.  I know that's certainly the case with some of the better shield/sword users (like San or Jrab or a dozen other guys). 

But I think pappy's analysis is the best.  You can't reasonably put yourself up against 11 of the enemy and expect to come out alive, whether they're all ranged, all 2h, or a mix of classes.

I can agree with this to an extent, I mean I can't really argue it because I've done it before, but I'll be honest and say if that group knows what they're doing and isn't just a ravenous blob of players hungry for the kill, the person usually has no chance, regardless of skill. If they know how to alternate their strikes or hold, it's real easy to kill that person in no time at all!
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Penguin on June 07, 2013, 11:31:21 pm
If you've ever seen huseby play, there is no way he ever has ran into 5 melee players unless he accidentally stumbled on them from backpedaling from 1 melee player.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Artyem on June 07, 2013, 11:40:15 pm
There was a time when I was pro ranged.

And then I played last night, and holy fucking shit at least 1/2 of the enemy team was ranged every time, I saw the situation in the OP more than once in one sitting.

Nerf cRPG!
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 08, 2013, 12:06:53 am
If you've ever seen huseby play, there is no way he ever has ran into 5 melee players unless he accidentally stumbled on them from backpedaling from 1 melee player.

How do you really feel?  :lol:

By myself?  No, because I don't rambo or suicide rush into groups of people.  I tend to try and back out of situations where I'm greatly outnumbered.  I get dismounted quite often in large groups of enemies however and have to go back and forth and circle around the group to try and escape (I usually will try to kill as many as I can before dying).  And I don't back pedal from 1 melee player, I'm usually trying to circle and move erratically, actively trying to kill them. 
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Nemeth on June 08, 2013, 01:45:30 am
To be fair, if you're running into a group of 11 ranged characters by yourself, death is the only real outcome, if you're careless enough to take such an action you've already justified your imminent death.  :cry:

And as far as the melee thing goes, I really don't think it's a fair comparison. If you're running into a group of 11 melee players on your own, I'm 99% sure you're going to die. Shit if you run into 5 on your own you're most likely gonna die unless those 5 players are absolutely terrible.

I was being sarcastic, though I understand that in written word it's sometimes easy to miss or misunderstand :)

You are very much mistaken. I think turning around, distracting, kiting, beating and backstabbing isolated elements is very important to the team. (I do it also because I can't stand clusterfucks..) To me this is controlling my game, and If I fuck up, its due to mistakes I did, contrary to the random mess that most players experience.

Yes Thomek, you think. The reality is, you spend 2 minutes running on the edge of the map, while the two clusterfucks clash. By the time you actually get into a fight to contribute, the round is usually decided. Killing that 1 archer that happened to be camping at the very back of the enemy team is, while nice and heartwarming, totally useless most of the times.
This is the scenario when you actually survive. However, following quite a few ninjas around with my agi character, all you usually do is stir some shit for 5 seconds in the backline of the enemy team that didn't get into fight yet, then get swarmed and killed.

I have nothing against ninjas, but they are not contributing in any major way to the results of the round.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 08, 2013, 01:59:47 am
I was being sarcastic, though I understand that in written word it's sometimes easy to miss or misunderstand :)

In retrospect it was a lot easier to see it was sarcastic. My bad, don't I feel stupid now.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Juhanius on June 08, 2013, 02:18:53 am
You are very much mistaken. I think turning around, distracting, kiting, beating and backstabbing isolated elements is very important to the team. (I do it also because I can't stand clusterfucks..) To me this is controlling my game, and If I fuck up, its due to mistakes I did, contrary to the random mess that most players experience.

You are very right Sir. That is also reason why I usually stay back and fight against cavalry( controlling my enviroment). Shooting into melee is always risky business. When Tangoing with horses its mainly up to my skill to survive. Back in the old good days shooting was much accurate, then shootin in melee made sense. Now it so much weird random shit even with 174 skill.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Thomek on June 08, 2013, 02:58:05 am
Yes Thomek, you think. The reality is, you spend 2 minutes running on the edge of the map, while the two clusterfucks clash. By the time you actually get into a fight to contribute, the round is usually decided.

This happens sometimes, it depends on the map, enemy cav, archers, their position any many other factors. The best if ofc when you manage to encircle the enemy at the crucial moment just before the clash happens and create confusion. This is what you want to achieve when conditions allow. When I'm solo I usually just go for archers though :D I like the sneaking!

The point of Ninjaing however is to create your own challenges and goals, little missions often, inside cRPG and achieving them. Ofc there are better, more effective ways to play. I'm not saying Ninjas are made to win rounds :) Just that they are not entirely as useless as you think. I often top scoreboards, as does macropus and khorin much more often than me, although we have different tactics.

(Khorin - charge right in and kill everyone, Macro-small encirclements, me - large encirclements.. roughly :) )
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Rumblood on June 08, 2013, 03:51:15 am
This is funny, cause back when kiting was still extremely viable you argued that one archer should be able to kill eleven 2h heroes, hypocrite.

Quote or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on June 08, 2013, 04:09:05 am
I would kill them but, you know, somebody removed the rocket from my horse's asshole, took away it's bullet proof vest, replaced my lance with a 300 pound lead toothpick, and broke my spine, making twisting in the saddle quite impossible.

I'd try to run a few of them over, but they'd just get back up. Or two of them would decide to work together to stiff-arm my half-ton animal.

NERF ME MORE, IT HURTS GOOD!
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Joker86 on June 08, 2013, 04:20:50 am
I do agree with Paul that the constant nerf cries for archers are getting out of hand. Although I disagree with buffing them, as it would increase the problems again.

What many players don't seem to be aware of, is the fact that not the effectivity of one archer is the problem, it's rather their amount. In difference to infantry archers gain strength the more of them you have. Every additional infantryman increases the strength of a team by a single infantryman (surprise, surprise!). But every additional archer increases the effectivity of every other archer in his team. Which means the effectivity growth is exponential.

Now why do we have so many archers? I guess there is a multitude of reasons, but one reason we can exclude: it's not their effectivity. Archers went through so many nerfs, and still we have that old problem of growing numbers whenever some time after the last patch (including the newest archery nerf) passed.

I think reasons for the unexplainable popularity of that class are the average melee skill level of the community, some of the newly implemented melee mechanics and tweaks, and last but not least the pleasure the higher flexibility concerning the gameplay of archers brings. (And just to beat my favourite dead horse once again: this flexiblity origins from the Battle Mode objectives. I guess there's only a puddle of blood left from that horse...)

I don't know how to really fix this (apart from my dead horse solution), but I do know for sure that archers should stop the "get a shield"-crap (yes, 11 shielders could still have problems dealing with those 11 archers, and 22 shielder would have much bigger problems dealing with 22 archers, whereas 88 archers would be unreachable, even for 176 shielders), and melee players should stop the "nerf archers" crap. I agree a little bit could be done about the horse crossbowman, but that's already everything. You guys know I think only the implementation of conquest mode could help something, but to bridge the time until a working solution is found you could try to "hotfix" the problems by yourself and actually try to coordinate with your teammates. It's the best thing you can do. Archers can't do a lot more than standing next to each other to protect themselves, and that's what they do already, so basically they are at the peak of their possible performance.

But you could improve your performance by looking what your team is doing, and perhaps even coordinating yourself with the other classes, e.g. your archers and cavalry. They can help you dealing with the enemy ranged players, and then you can help them dealing with the rest. Trust me, you won't fight less (if anything, you'll survive longer and fight more!), and you will have fun actually playing in a team, instead of only playing "along" each other.

I know, I partially agree with CrazyCracka and Berserkadin on this matter, but in difference to them I think it's only a measure which helps, but in no way it's the final solution. Just remember the golden infantry rule of cRPG: run where your teammates are, not where the enemy is.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Kafein on June 08, 2013, 02:47:26 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.

I get your point, to be honest I know archers used to have a greater impact on victory, and more frequently than now.

Somehow though, dealing with them has become increasingly unfun. I don't think I play because I care much about victory (not anymore at least), the issue is in gameplay. Frankly I'm fine with losing to a group of cliffcamping archers, but I'm not fine with being set up as the ultimate archer counter and still having an easier and funnier experience dealing with the same number of 2h. Maybe it is related to the evolution of skill, as in melee becoming increasingly uneffective as people learn to block (add armor reduce to that). What I ask is less a nerf than introducing some defensive skill on the receiving end. Oftentimes, being killed by ranged is similar to being struck by lightning, that's what I don't like.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Rumblood on June 08, 2013, 06:08:51 pm
I What I ask is less a nerf than introducing some defensive skill on the receiving end. Oftentimes, being killed by ranged is similar to being struck by lightning, that's what I don't like.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Grumbs on June 08, 2013, 07:12:33 pm
I concur, nerf must be ranged
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: BrazZOR on June 08, 2013, 07:52:42 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Havoco on June 08, 2013, 08:14:00 pm
Looking at the picture I'd guess that there's about 60-80 ppl in the server. 11 ranged isn't that much compared. It seems like ppl keep forgetting that half the classes in the game are ranged classes.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Johammeth on June 08, 2013, 09:39:43 pm
I'm gonna go play my Arethebest whore now.

Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Necrorave on June 08, 2013, 11:53:59 pm
Somehow though, dealing with them has become increasingly unfun.

The main reason things have become more "Unfun" is because the new exp/gold system creates competition throughout the server rather then fun.  Archers will shoot the last guy because they want to win.  Rather then fight with honor because we all get the same thing in the end.  (For competetive people, this may be fun.  Although if they are losing then they end up upset.)  Competition will upset everyone in some way.  While the casual feel it had back then left everyone with a sense of "Who cares its fun".  Take exp barn for example.  People did it all the time because they knew it would be fun and reward EVERYONE.  While now its all about banner balance and trying to be the best so one side pevails over another

This is not the archers fault and you should not "Punish" them for it.
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Prpavi on June 09, 2013, 03:36:56 pm
After reading this I'm thinking about working towards an additional foot archery buff within the balance team. In respect of their current inefficiency the amount of retarded lobbying against archers - even from otherwise intelligent specimen like Kafein - is unbearable. Maybe it is time to show again what it is like when they really have an impact on the outcome of a round which is now mainly hogged by cav,  inf and (to a lessen extend) crossbowmen.

You are highly delusional, or just being a jerk intentionally, what ever the case may be you should have a bit more respect for the community... what you put out is what you get back  :wink:
Title: Re: Fear the Ranged death squad!
Post by: Kafein on June 09, 2013, 03:41:43 pm
The main reason things have become more "Unfun" is because the new exp/gold system creates competition throughout the server rather then fun.  Archers will shoot the last guy because they want to win.  Rather then fight with honor because we all get the same thing in the end.  (For competetive people, this may be fun.  Although if they are losing then they end up upset.)  Competition will upset everyone in some way.  While the casual feel it had back then left everyone with a sense of "Who cares its fun".  Take exp barn for example.  People did it all the time because they knew it would be fun and reward EVERYONE.  While now its all about banner balance and trying to be the best so one side pevails over another

This is not the archers fault and you should not "Punish" them for it.

Well the horrible post january 2011 mindset has contaminated everybody, not just archers.