cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Blueberry Muffin on May 30, 2013, 01:59:42 am
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Yeah I know its been a problem for a long time and imagine some people would say 'no shit sherlock', but I really think it needs to be restated.
Two directional polearms (With pehaps the exception of the awlpike) are utterly useless. I think I actually forgot how bad they really are... I just started using an english bill +3 and I have never been so pissed off by anything in cRPG to this extent. Every strike glances, or goes through the enemy, or misses them entirely due to the turn speed nerf. It is quite genuinely unusable; in battle and duel.
Just thought I should bring it to the attention of the game balancers.
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I have been staring at the +3 English Bill in our armoury wishing it wasn't such a piece of shit.
I think utterly useless is an understatement, the awlpike and ashwood pike are extremely good weapons, the long awlpike is a good weapon, the new frenchie 2D polearms are mostly a bit worse than the long awlpike but still definitely viable. I think the heavy overhead 2D polearms are the only real suckers, the Swiss Halberd and especially the English Bill and Long Voulge. The main issue is in my opinion that these weapons got hit disproportionally hard with the new turn rate values because of their high weight. I think the stats of these weapons are fine in comparison to the other 2D weapons, if it weren't for weight affecting turn rate. Turn rate is simply the most important attribute of a support polearm.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/english-bill-and-swiss-halberd-rebalance-suggestion/15/
That is the thread I made some time ago, but apparently some people find the ability to stun more important than the ability to turn, a notion which I find ridiculous. I think that the English Bill and the Long Awlpike are balanced with eachother stats wise, so they should have the same turnrate. Makes no sense to have it turn slower even though it doesn't have any advantages elsewhere.
I stand by my suggestions as an easy way to reintroduce overhead support polearms into the game. Otherwise 2 awesome weapons are not going to be seen much and that is a damn shame.
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It could use a bigger stun imo, but besides that the English bill is fine, Swiss Halberd is shit from what I recall of using it though.
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Two directional polearms (With pehaps the exception of the awlpike) are utterly useless.
Tell that to Bonsai. He's this NA dude.
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Yeah I know its been a problem for a long time and imagine some people would say 'no shit sherlock', but I really think it needs to be restated.
Two directional polearms (With pehaps the exception of the awlpike) are utterly useless. I think I actually forgot how bad they really are... I just started using an english bill +3 and I have never been so pissed off by anything in cRPG to this extent. Every strike glances, or goes through the enemy, or misses them entirely due to the turn speed nerf. It is quite genuinely unusable; in battle and duel.
Just thought I should bring it to the attention of the game balancers.
pretty much this, english bill and others were at least little usefull when you could kick and block at same time but now it is just too risky.
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ive used the spetum with 0wpf alot on other characters as 2h and on my main as 1h just for getting cav but in melee i found it very good even with 0 weapon points. When you use it with like 147 wpf though its madness very fast.
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Yeah I know its been a problem for a long time and imagine some people would say 'no shit sherlock', but I really think it needs to be restated.
Two directional polearms (With pehaps the exception of the awlpike) are utterly useless. I think I actually forgot how bad they really are... I just started using an english bill +3 and I have never been so pissed off by anything in cRPG to this extent. Every strike glances, or goes through the enemy, or misses them entirely due to the turn speed nerf. It is quite genuinely unusable; in battle and duel.
Just thought I should bring it to the attention of the game balancers.
allthough my sidesteps and swings were well timed and to the head, killing you muffin , i was indeed amazed at the sluggishness of the bill and it didnt feel satisying like it normally dous killing a champion, just mentioning this because i saw u quit after it and i knew exactly why. i think this weight problem is a general problem thow, i myself am using a heavy greatsword witch is 3.5 kg, experience that its the most sluggish gs, and it dousnt feel like there is a bonus for having a heavier weapon, not in damage, and not noticing eny stuns on other weaps from my overheads.. but ye bill needs buff for sure.
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Two-directional polearms are fine. A comfortable balance between the Long Spear/Pike and the shorter spears, with the ability to use overhead feints. Great damage, nice hitbox on the stab.
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They are not useless. It's the length mate.
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Two-directional polearms are fine. A comfortable balance between the Long Spear/Pike and the shorter spears, with the ability to use overhead feints. Great damage, nice hitbox on the stab.
lol i like how you have no clue who u are telling to l2p, muffin would tear you quite some new assholes playing eny melee based class.
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Can you give me that +3 Bill please? I'm using an unloomed one on my polearm char and it's super-effective.
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lol i like how you have no clue who u are telling to l2p, muffin would tear you quite some new assholes playing eny melee based class.
Just because somebody is a good dueller doesn't automatically make him a demigod of c-rpg. No offence to blueberry or anyone, just pointing out that duels are not all warband is about - too often people seem to forget that...
I've always seen 2d polearms as purely support weapons, and indeed, they perform very well in that role. They require a different approach than other meele weapons though.
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I have a +3 Ranseur, +3 Spetum, +3 English Bill and have previously played with a +3 Swiss Halberd and +3 Long Awlpike.
I wouldn't call any of the above completely useless, they're decent weapons, but they are too weak compared to other weapons. There's pretty much no reason taking any of the above instead of a long spear, ashwood pike (with shield) if you don't mind one less attacking direction or the glaive or german greatsword if you want 2 more. No stat on them justify what you lose either way, and especially after the two turn-rate nerfs, they really aren't up to scratch. It's quite sad really.
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Gurni , I can only +1 you because of your new signature :D
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Well Im not such an amazing player but I would say Im good. Good enough to be able to use weapons efficiently and I really struggle with these 2D polearms. (With a few exceptions) Ashwood pike is for hoplites really, awlpike is ok because it is short, but the rest range from below average to unusable.
Teeth was using an english bill on the server today and I think he GTX after 2 maps or so. :D
Gurny got it right, they really just arent worth using, which is a shame as they add a good diversity to the game.
PS: Paul if you have something to trade for it, I will happily do so.
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Teeth was using an english bill on the server today and I think he GTX after 2 maps or so. :D
Nownow, I only went on to try it out for a little while, because I really should be studying, I did even worse when I switched to pike so perhaps it had more to do with myself than the weapon. I was very pleasantly surprised at first, but then I failed to outrange a 2h stab 4 times in a row with my overhead because he could walk a full meter by the time my overhead landed. I'll give it another chance when I have more time.
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I was talking with gurni some time ago and we discussed the problem with bill/halberd.
The overheads are slow, pretty much anything can spam them, yet they still don't really do that much damage. I don't see why the halberd should have the same cut damage as a katana, or the 1 less than the glaive. Same with the english bills 31p. That's the same as a steel pick and a lot less than the morningstar.
Let the overheads be really slow, hard-to-turn attacks that deals massive damage when it hits. Kinda like the mauls, except instead of CT and backup sideswings, you get long reach.
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Give damage buff for 2 direction poles, maybe not for awlpoke
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Give damage buff for the overhead on 2 direction poles, maybe not for awlpoke
FTFY
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Bill and Halbard needs stab buff at least
The others are still just meh . No point in using most 2 directions when you can get either sideswings or longspear. They don't bring much to the table for the lack of 2 directions
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Zlisch_The_Maddiedownvoter how about a comment?
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k, here you go, a comment. Besides maybe some more overhead damage or weight (first once turnspeed isn't definded by weight, turnspeed should stay what it is).
I was able to duel somewhat competitively with my unloomed bill after a few tries and getting used to its turnspeed, it honestly is a decent weapon.
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first once turnspeed isn't definded by weight
A combination of length and weight. That's why the bill turn as slow as the great maul and pike.. :|
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k, here you go, a comment. Besides maybe some more overhead damage or weight (first once turnspeed isn't definded by weight, turnspeed should stay what it is).
I was able to duel somewhat competitively with my unloomed bill after a few tries and getting used to its turnspeed, it honestly is a decent weapon.
What is your idea of "duel competitively"? And how does that fit into balance in terms of battle?
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A combination of length and weight. That's why the bill turn as slow as the great maul and pike.. :|
It was worded poorly, but I think he might be talking about the proposed tailoring of turn-rates for each weapon individually some time in the future (instead of the current formula). Either way, I wonder if a dev could chime in and say whether such plans are still being pursued (probably not) :rolleyes:
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Thats like saying we should talk about balance like we have hilts doing blunt damage, as was also proposed. Or any other pie in the sky idea. Buff 2 handers cos stab will be nerfed
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Thats like saying we should talk about balance like we have hilts doing blunt damage, as was also proposed. Or any other pie in the sky idea. Buff 2 handers cos stab is too weak
Except that you're missing me saying ONCE turnspeed is no longer tied to weight, as in, ONCE THAT HAPPENS they could increase the weight, but for now they should just increase the swing damage a bit/do nothing.
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Tell me about your strong dueling then, and how that ties into current battle scenario
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Tell me about your strong dueling then, and how that ties into current battle scenario
You see Grumbs, in battle, for those scenarios where all your teammates die and it's just you vs some other guy, a dueling scenario would occur. And this weapon along with being decent enough for dueling is pretty good support for all other parts of battle.
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Its not. In a duel you want anything other than 2d poles. You want 2d or 1 d attacks for group combat. 2 d is a liability against someone who is competent and has side swings imo
Who did you duel consistently and beat with bills btw?
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I'm ok with buffing the long voulge, swiss halberd and english bill overhead damage (because that's what makes these three special really), but only if instant stabs get a fix.
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I think it's just the overhead ones. The long awlpike clone series deals insane damage with very quick stabs. The clones even have decent overheads. The bill needs a hardcoded turn buff.
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Used Swiss Halberd and it was nice.
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I'm ok with buffing the long voulge, swiss halberd and english bill overhead damage (because that's what makes these three special really), but only if instant stabs get a fix.
I remember using a pocket Long Voulge back in the days. It was my only defense against cav haha.
I really think they need to tweak it a bit rather then buff it. I understand why they took away its 4D abilities, although without them it is kind of pointless since the stab is so weak.