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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: OttomanSniper on May 25, 2013, 09:28:04 am

Title: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 25, 2013, 09:28:04 am
xbow & bolt damage need nerf and bow & arrow damage need buff, there is a big difference damage values.

My items: +3 Horn Bow, +3 Tatar Arrow
Char: 8PD 150WP 26STR

I can kill medium armored guy 2 shot to head or 6 shot to body.

But when i use +3 light xbow and +0 Steel bolts 1 shot enough for head or 2 shot enough for body.

If any one dont believe me, we can try on eu3 u can record and upload any video portal. I tried some guys this issue and they are believe me now.

Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Macropus on May 25, 2013, 09:29:21 am
There should be difference in damage.
Another problem might be that archery is weaker in general, considering its low missile speed and accuracy.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Algarn on May 25, 2013, 11:47:46 am
Damages are quite fine with looms ... Buff only unloomed stuff.

And I agree with ottomansniper , the gap between xbows and bows is quite vast ... and bow isn't so cheaper than xbows ... So , I would suggest to adapt price of bows, because you can become easily a good crossbowman without practice, but that's much harder to become accurate with bows ...

Archers don't need a "big" buff,  but a small buff , on prices for example ... Longbow = 11000 gold / Arbalest = 180000 gold

Arbalest 1 shot everything , with high accuracy , and time of reload can be improved by wpf in crossbow.
Longbow, for example, never 1 shot (only peasants) , and is highly inaccurate for his price.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Panos on May 25, 2013, 12:04:07 pm
Quote from: OttomanSniper on May 25, 2013, 09:28:04 am
xbow & bolt damage need nerf and bow & arrow damage need buff, there is a big difference damage values.

Oh, is this the make a wish thread??


Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 12:34:33 pm
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on May 25, 2013, 11:47:46 am
Arbalest 1 shot everything , with high accuracy , and time of reload can be improved by wpf in crossbow.
Longbow, for example, never 1 shot (only peasants) , and is highly inaccurate for his price.

Bullshit. You rarely ever one-shot with arbalest. The damage with mw arbalest is a bit higher than mw long bow, but not much. Also, dropping this in here:

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Stop whining about long bow accuracy please. "Highly inaccurate". Compare it to the others please :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Tomas on May 25, 2013, 12:35:31 pm
The high end stuff is balanced imo - its the low end xbows that are OP compared to the low end bows.

Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 01:05:49 pm
Forgot to add one:

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Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Algarn on May 25, 2013, 01:19:55 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 12:34:33 pm
Bullshit. You rarely ever one-shot with arbalest. The damage with mw arbalest is a bit higher than mw long bow, but not much. Also, dropping this in here:

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Stop whining about long bow accuracy please. "Highly inaccurate". Compare it to the others please :rolleyes:

Yeah , I know , but if you aren't a dedicated archer , your crosshair is big ... try with 160 + armor  :P

And yeah , I saw a lot of 1 shot with arbalst +3 and steel bolt +3
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Ronin on May 25, 2013, 01:24:31 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 12:34:33 pm
Bullshit. You rarely ever one-shot with arbalest. The damage with mw arbalest is a bit higher than mw long bow, but not much. Also, dropping this in here:

(click to show/hide)
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Stop whining about long bow accuracy please. "Highly inaccurate". Compare it to the others please :rolleyes:
Hmm, but you can have that accuracy for like 0.1 second with bows and you have a much worse projectile speed.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: PanPan on May 25, 2013, 02:09:40 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 25, 2013, 01:24:31 pm
Hmm, but you can have that accuracy for like 0.1 second with bows and you have a much worse projectile speed.

this.

Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 12:34:33 pm
Bullshit. You rarely ever one-shot with arbalest. The damage with mw arbalest is a bit higher than mw long bow, but not much. Also, dropping this in here:

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Stop whining about long bow accuracy please. "Highly inaccurate". Compare it to the others please :rolleyes:


And I think standing still with a Horn bow on a horse isn't changing alot with the accuracy, try going fullspeed.
Try going fullspeed with a crossbow on a horseback, then compare.
The accuracy of a Horse Archer with 4 HA is almost exact the same as a Horse Crossbower with like 1-2 Horse Archery skill.
As an unloomed hybrid-Horse Crossbower with some 1h wpf and some Powerstrike you're more viable than a fully loomed Horse Archer with no additional skills.

Show a bit love to Horse Archer's (by the way I'm neither an Archer nor a Horse Archer) or nerf Horse Crossbower.

(I know we aren't talking about Horse Archers or Horse Crossbowers but I wanted to drop that in  :rolleyes:)
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Rumblood on May 25, 2013, 05:19:23 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 25, 2013, 01:24:31 pm
Hmm, but you can have that accuracy for like 0.1 second with bows and you have a much worse projectile speed.

It took him 18 tries to get the screenshot for the long bow. Kept missing the accuracy window.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Tydeus on May 25, 2013, 07:10:26 pm
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on May 25, 2013, 01:19:55 pm
Yeah , I know , but if you aren't a dedicated archer , your crosshair is big ... try with 160 + armor  :P
So you're saying archers shouldn't suffer penalties for being good at both ranged and melee combat? Mmmmmm... What?








What?
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Belatu on May 25, 2013, 07:13:36 pm
It is not all about how small is the reticule.
there are other things on it. Probabilities etc etc
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Cup1d on May 25, 2013, 08:18:43 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 01:05:49 pm
Forgot to add one:

(click to show/hide)

Also you forgot to add +3 Arbalest with 189 wpf.
And please, can you mark how match time you can hold those reticules. For bows and crossbows.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 08:20:45 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on May 25, 2013, 08:18:43 pm
Also you forgot to add +3 Arbalest with 189 wpf.
And please, can you mark how match time you can hold those reticules. For bows and crossbows.

They're all level 30 builds, how am I supposed to make a pic of +3 arbalest with 189 wpf?

Of course you can hold your shot with xbows, that's what you pay for with your garbage RoF compared to bows. :)
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Cup1d on May 25, 2013, 08:54:44 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 08:20:45 pm
They're all level 30 builds, how am I supposed to make a pic of +3 arbalest with 189 wpf?

Of course you can hold your shot with xbows, that's what you pay for with your garbage RoF compared to bows. :)

And who tell you that 189 wpf is impossible for 30 level?
Wanna bet loompoint?

Also, if you are soooo strict with 30 level rule - explain me, please, your 10pd 140 wpf build at 30 level.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 09:38:39 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on May 25, 2013, 08:54:44 pm
And who tell you that 189 wpf is impossible for 30 level?
Wanna bet loompoint?

Also, if you are soooo strict with 30 level rule - explain me, please, your 10pd 140 wpf build at 30 level.

Well, it's possible, but not effective at all. Nothing but 10 wm with an arbalest is trash.

10 pd, 3 if/ps/ath, 4 wm. I've used this build and it's actually an effective build, unlike the arbalest one above. Hit like a truck with good accuracy. Only problem is that you're snail-like. I did the IF myself. The survivability with 30 strength and 3 IF was quite nice on top of the other pros. However, I still prefer 18/24 at 30 myself.

Edit: Arbalest build actually has 1 ath according to myself (:P) two years ago (http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/dedicated-crossbower-build/)
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 27, 2013, 07:01:21 pm
My items: +3 Horn Bow, +3 Tatar Arrow
Char: 8PD 150WP 26STR

I can kill medium armored guy 2 shot to head or 6 shot to body.

But when i use +3 light xbow and +0 Steel bolts 1 shot enough for head or 2 shot enough for body.

If any one dont believe me, we can try on eu3 u can record and upload any video portal. I tried some guys this issue and they are believe me now.

Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 27, 2013, 07:32:17 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 09:38:39 pm
10 pd, 3 if/ps/ath, 4 wm. I've used this build and it's actually an effective build, unlike the arbalest one above. Hit like a truck with good accuracy. Only problem is that you're snail-like. I did the IF myself. The survivability with 30 strength and 3 IF was quite nice on top of the other pros. However, I still prefer 18/24 at 30 myself.
Did they remove the rule then that you must have 14wpf per PD? It's been a while since I've made a new archer build or kept close attention to patch notes.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Ronin on May 27, 2013, 07:36:35 pm
140 wpf, 14 pd.

Fits right in, because you have 0 wpf (?)
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 27, 2013, 07:49:26 pm
Level 30 with 4 M is 138 wpf if all dedicated to one type. I'll fiddle with my STF later and see if the game does not yell about my proficiency being too low with 10PD and only 4WM.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Gurnisson on May 27, 2013, 07:51:21 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on May 27, 2013, 07:32:17 pm
Did they remove the rule then that you must have 14wpf per PD? It's been a while since I've made a new archer build or kept close attention to patch notes.

They buffed high PD a while back, reducing the amount of lost wpf produced by PD.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 27, 2013, 07:52:37 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 27, 2013, 07:51:21 pm
They buffed high PD a while back, reducing the amount of lost wpf produced by PD.
Oh right, that silly curve where the first version actually had 13PD negate only one wpf. I forgot about that change where it is a curve and not linear, nice.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Malaclypse on May 27, 2013, 07:53:36 pm
Yes, Strength archery is totally viable and hits very hard, you're just a bit slow, though are quite accurate. Perfect build for Strategus where moving isn't as much of an issue as battle would be 30/9 in light armor (this would be: 3 WM, 10 PD, 10 extra points to be spread between IF, PS, Ath as you please, all prof in Archery).
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Rumblood on May 27, 2013, 08:14:39 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on May 25, 2013, 08:20:45 pm
They're all level 30 builds, how am I supposed to make a pic of +3 arbalest with 189 wpf?

Of course you can hold your shot with xbows, that's what you pay for with your garbage RoF compared to bows. :)

Your screenshots had all the bows at 170wpf with the xbow at 160 wpf. Try apples and oranges.

Also compare apples and oranges on the RoF. Sure, an Arbalest RoF is garbage compared to a Tatar bow, but so is the RoF for a Long bow, yet you can hold a Tatar bow for much longer than a long bow. At any rate, there is a large difference between one getting even double the RoF and being able to hold their aim for a barely longer than the reaction time of a human being and half the RoF, but being able to hold a shot for literally an entire round without losing accuracy.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: MrShine on May 29, 2013, 08:42:53 pm
Quote from: OttomanSniper on May 25, 2013, 09:28:04 am
xbow & bolt damage need nerf and bow & arrow damage need buff, there is a big difference damage values.

My items: +3 Horn Bow, +3 Tatar Arrow
Char: 8PD 150WP 26STR

I can kill medium armored guy 2 shot to head or 6 shot to body.

But when i use +3 light xbow and +0 Steel bolts 1 shot enough for head or 2 shot enough for body.

If any one dont believe me, we can try on eu3 u can record and upload any video portal. I tried some guys this issue and they are believe me now.

And did you time how long it took for you to kill the guy as an archer vs reloading & shooting as an xbowman?  Archer still could end up taking longer, but there's more than 'shots to kill' that need to be taken into account if you're talking about balance between xbow and archer.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 29, 2013, 10:18:07 pm
i mean remove exaggerated damage difference between bow and xbow.

xbow players make cry 2 handers and we (bow archers) got nerf every cry. because they are say "nerf ranged" but i think only xbow annoyed other players.

2 days ago, my horse take one shot to kill my full hp horse (+3 rouncey) after i got a body shot and 'd be dead with full hp. xbow is OP.
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: Rumblood on May 30, 2013, 04:42:08 am
Quote from: OttomanSniper on May 29, 2013, 10:18:07 pm
xbow players make cry 2 handers and we (bow archers) got nerf every cry. because they are say "nerf ranged" but i think only xbow annoyed other players.

Pretty much true. I don't know how many threads were created that had a title of "Nerf archers" and in the first post is either a screenshot of a bolt, or a flat out statement of "this xbow one shotted me, nerf archers!"
Title: Re: Archery Damage Balance
Post by: OttomanSniper on June 03, 2013, 06:01:00 pm
I found a great idea for this, pls look:

Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on June 03, 2013, 10:11:24 am
Add PD to xbows so regular infantry cant pick up xbows