cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 11:18:31 am

Title: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 11:18:31 am
Hi there.

Me keeps text short. If don't wanna read, take penis -> knee -> fuck. Try read, looks like long text, is not. Many notes, little text.

If still too much, read from first red part to last red part. Not much. Not much.


Requirements for reward system:

- rewards good skills
- rewards teamplay
- rewards not completely dependent on the performance, to keep noobs and baddies motivated
- rewards need to be as little dependent on your team as possible
- rewards need to reflect the effort

Problem: contradicting requirements.
Solution: compromises.
Conclusion: will never be perfect.
Recommendation: lower your expectations.


First things first: this suggestion is assuming that the conquest mode is already implemented. That's why I will repeatedly refer to flags and flag areas.

Flag area: the area around a flag within you can capture it. Who would have thought it?


The system:

1. Class based.

The community will be divided into the following classes:

- 1hd/throwing + shield = Shield infantry
- throwing = Throwers (which means that throwers with shield always have two classes)
- 2hd/2hd-polearm = Heavy infantry
- Pikemen/hoplites, perhaps 2d-Polearms = Defensive Infantry
- Crushthrough infantry = Shock infantry
- archers/crossbowmen = Ranged infantry
- melee cavalry (lancers/1hd-cav/2hd-cav) = Cavalry
- ranged cavalry (Horsearchers/horsecrossbowmen/horsethrowers) = Skirmisher Cavalry


2. Area based

Some classes get kills only within a certain area around them. Which means we go back to the old system.

3. Kill based

Dead enemies grant rewards. This is again a step back to the old game. More about this later.

4. Multiplier based.

All the rewards you collect during a round are put in a "pot". At the end of the round you get a certain percentage of the pot (= multiplier), depending on manifold factors.


____________________________________________



Getting rewards:

Getting points for your pot:

All rewards are distributed by "points", and at the end of the round the points get transformed into gold and XP. As said, you collect a pot full of points during the round.

Deaths:

Whenever you get points for a killed player, your "value" (= level, generation & equipment value) is being compared with his value. The more the value of the enemy is bigger than yours, the more rewards you get. And vice versa, of course. 

Flags:

Conquering flags grants points, obviously. The less teammates and the more enemies are around that flag, the more points you receive.



Getting more out of your pot with the multiplier:

Your multiplier determines how many points you can actually get out of your pot. It is even possible to get more points than what you had in your pot.


Surviving teammates/enemies:

The more teammates and the less enemies survive the round, the bigger your multiplier. (Note that due to conquest mode you can survive the round and still lose)


Time passed:

The shorter the round lasted, the bigger the multiplier for the winner. The longer the round lasted, the bigger the multiplier for the loser. As soon as the amount of living players of the teams exceeds a certain relation, e.g. 2:1 or 3:1, the time calculation stops, to prevent useless prolonging/delaying of the round by the losers. As soon as the relation jumps back to a more challenging value, the "frozen" time gets added again, and runs on.

Flag areas:

Whenever you get points for a killed enemy or something like that and you and/or the enemy was within a flag area, the points you get for it get multiplied by a certain value.

Teamhits/teamkills:

Every teamhit lower your multiplier a bit. Every teamhit which is being reported lowers it quite a good bit. Every teamkill lowers it a lot. Note that these punishments are permanent for that map, so they are being kept from round to round!

Won rounds:

For every round you won in a row you get a higher multiplier. But unlike before, the value is much lower, it's rather something like x1.1, x1.2 and x1.3 instead of x2 x3 or x4. But the limit can be raised to something like x2 at the most.

Dying:

Once you die you still keep on getting points for killed players and other stuff, but only at a certain percentage (like 50% or the like). It's easily determined by the time you lived. ([time you lived]x1 + ([round time]-[time you lived])x0.5 for example). This multiplier can be different for the classes, depending on how likely it is to die. (So infantry will probably get a higher death multiplier than archers or cav for example)

Generation:

The generation does not directly affect your multiplier. It affects the rate at which points get transformed into gold and XP. The higher your generation, the more valuable your points are.


Motivating the classes to play "properly":

Problem with rewarding kills directly:

Now the biggest problem doing so is directly rewarding kills. It would lead to a lot of kill stealing, teamhitting and teamkilling, and would support a general attitude and behavior which is definitely not desirable.

Old class balance problems concerning infantry:

There were always a lot of complaints and lobbying in the community, concerning class balance. And usually it was either infantry complaining about ranged or infantry complaining about cavalry. This has a lot of reasons, some of those have to do with the game mode, others have to do with the general way infantry players tend to play, and others have to do with the special gameplay requirements of infantry compared to the others classes. Whatever it is, the reward system should do something about the "infantry problem".

The core point of my suggestion:


Infantry receives points for enemies which have been killed within a certain range around them. If this happened within a flag area, they get even more rewards. BUT:

Infantry does not get rewards for killing enemies themselves!

Next to this, infantry gets a higher multiplier for every other infantryman who survived the round, compared to other teammates:

Infantry should be interested in protecting their infantry colleagues.

And finally, the most interesting point of my suggestion:

Every infantry class gets a target class. You never get ANY rewards when your target class is killed, neither by you nor by your teammates!


Now what does this mean?

You are encouraged to actually protect your fellow infantry mates, instead of racking up kills. You want THEM to make the death blow, you don't want to do it yourself, because you would not get rewards for it. And you want them to survive, that's why you look after them and support them whenever you can. But as you want to kill something, too, you will focus on your target class, because you don't get rewards for it, anyway. The big advantage of this system is, that you don't get greedy for kills, because you don't lose anything if someone else kills your target class. The focus of the game is shifted from making kills to actually helping and protecting each other. I think the gameplay can only benefit from it.

Examples for target classes:

Defensive infantry targets cavalrymen and horses.
Shock infantry targets shield infantry.
Heavy infantry targets defensive infantry and eventually horses.
Throwers target shock and heavy infantry and cavalry + horses. (Probably need some multiplier assistance due to the amount of targets which grant no reward)

Shield infantry target throwers and ranged.
Shield infantry are a special case, as they also get additional rewards for surviving friendly archers and being around the flag. This is to represent the (much underestimated) importance of shields for infantry. You see it's rather meant to be a defensive class (by me).

Weak parts of my suggestion:

I don't see any other reasonable solution for archers and cavalry than to directly reward them with a higher multiplier for kills they score, and bonus rewards for their target classes, which means that ranged and skirmisher cav target melee cav, melee cav and sirmisher cav target archers and so on. In return to prevent them of going apeshit on their teammates, their punishment multipliers for teamkills and teamhits could be bigger than those for infantry.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 13, 2013, 11:28:38 am
still too much
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 11:29:32 am
still too much

Read everything from the first red part to the last red part.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: no_rules_just_play on May 13, 2013, 11:31:41 am
i dont think this is a good idea. People would not do their actual job and just try to get rewards. what if pikers didnt attack cav? what if cav didnt attack infantery?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 11:34:44 am
i dont think this is a good idea. People would not do their actual job and just try to get rewards. what if pikers didnt attack cav? what if cav didnt attack infantery?

They would. Because in the end people do want kills, and they will kill someone who is attacking them, anyway. I don't think people will give a big fuck about the rewards for those two or three enemies they kill per round. It's just a means to influence them a bit. It won't fix everything.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Vibe on May 13, 2013, 11:39:46 am
dumb 0/10

forcing pubs to teamwork via the score system

taking away freedom of gameplay

introducing a single metagame
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 11:49:30 am
dumb 0/10

forcing pubs to teamwork via the score system

taking away freedom of gameplay

introducing a single metagame

It's not forcing. It's... "motivating"... how many kills do you score per round? If you kill them yourself, without getting a reward for them, how much will this hurt you? Compared to all those enemies who die around you and actually give your rewards?

And yes, you have to force pubs for teamplay, otherwise the gameplay will always by as plain as it is now, and cavalry and archers will always have to stay as they are right now: gimped.

And what do you mean with introducing a single metagame?  :?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Vibe on May 13, 2013, 11:59:14 am
It's not forcing. It's... "motivating"... how many kills do you score per round? If you kill them yourself, without getting a reward for them, how much will this hurt you? Compared to all those enemies who die around you and actually give your rewards?

And yes, you have to force pubs for teamplay, otherwise the gameplay will always by as plain as it is now, and cavalry and archers will always have to stay as they are right now: gimped.

And what do you mean with introducing a single metagame?  :?

No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people. It's their loss already if they didn't protect their archers and shit like that with losing a round. But punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay.

You are introducing a single metagame because you're defining roles for each class - what each class should be doing to max their points. Anything done out of that job is penalized by not getting/getting less points.

Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2013, 12:01:15 pm
Kinda pointless suggestion since there is no conquest mode. Not to mention that this sounds like an idiotic amount of work for the devs which are kinda busy with other things, I figure.


I enjoy my battle server as it is. The score table is okay, I guess... maybe ranged is kinda screwed but then again I think it`s deserved considering it's... ranged.
Multi-system is kinda boring but it does its job and valour has always been garbage imho.

Let's just play.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Ronin on May 13, 2013, 12:12:35 pm
No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people.
Yes, at least half of the team chooses to go rambo.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 12:36:32 pm
No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people. It's their loss already if they didn't protect their archers and shit like that with losing a round. But punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay.

You are introducing a single metagame because you're defining roles for each class - what each class should be doing to max their points. Anything done out of that job is penalized by not getting/getting less points.

There are enough other games which are rewarding team play as well. You present it like you can't make a game where cooperation is rewarded, because it limits freedom. A game is always a set of rules players agree to stick to, nothing more and nothing less.

People are free to go the mindless hack and slay way, and they won't be punished too much for this (actually they don't get punished, they just don't get rewarded. Seems like hairsplitting, but is a huge difference in matters of gameplay and motivation). But if other players tend to also look for the team and use their brain, they should get rewarded for doing "more". Because I could turn your argument against you and say the current game limits the players on only playing on the "skill" level, and not even considering tactics. Why should a reward system punish(not reward) people who use tactics? Punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay to hack and slay.

See how this works?

Currently doing more than the brainless minimum is not being rewarded at all. With my suggestion, you would be (roughly) rewarded according to the effort you put into the game and the amount you help other players. It's not forcing certain playstyles, it's simply rewarding people if they maximize their efforts and do the right things. And yes, it's the loss of the autowalker-lemming-rambos if they don't protect their archers and so on, but it's also the loss of those people who try. And they suffer from those people as much as those people do themselves. This can't be!

And what the fuck are melee assassins who specialize in kills? Who does NOT specialize on kills these days? Those few support players with pikes, lurking around at the flanks? But that's it already, the entire rest of the player base sees themselves as melee assassins with the only purpose of racking up kills.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Vibe on May 13, 2013, 12:47:22 pm
There are enough other games which are rewarding team play as well. You present it like you can't make a game where cooperation is rewarded, because it limits freedom. A game is always a set of rules players agree to stick to, nothing more and nothing less.

Game can very well be made with cooperation/teamwork in mind, but your idea is punishing freedom for teamwork.


People are free to go the mindless hack and slay way, and they won't be punished too much for this (actually they don't get punished, they just don't get rewarded. Seems like hairsplitting, but is a huge difference in matters of gameplay and motivation). But if other players tend to also look for the team and use their brain, they should get rewarded for doing "more". Because I could turn your argument against you and say the current game limits the players on only playing on the "skill" level, and not even considering tactics. Why should a reward system punish(not reward) people who use tactics? Punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay to hack and slay.

See how this works?

The system does not punish people who use tactics, what kind of horse shit is this. Clans that use teamwork and tactics win rounds. Last I checked winning rounds gave you multi.


Currently doing more than the brainless minimum is not being rewarded at all. With my suggestion, you would be (roughly) rewarded according to the effort you put into the game and the amount you help other players. It's not forcing certain playstyles, it's simply rewarding people if they maximize their efforts and do the right things. And yes, it's the loss of the autowalker-lemming-rambos if they don't protect their archers and so on, but it's also the loss of those people who try. And they suffer from those people as much as those people do themselves. This can't be!

And what the fuck are melee assassins who specialize in kills? Who does NOT specialize on kills these days? Those few support players with pikes, lurking around at the flanks? But that's it already, the entire rest of the player base sees themselves as melee assassins with the only purpose of racking up kills.

I'm not against rewarding support, but like I said, you're also penalizing other playstyles with this.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 13, 2013, 12:56:02 pm
Fuck it all to shit bags!!!

I say all battles should operate on strat like xp!

TO THE XP BARN!

That way all those plate crutches would be loved by all.

NOW MAKE THE XP FLOW!
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 01:02:34 pm
Game can very well be made with cooperation/teamwork in mind, but your idea is punishing freedom for teamwork.

Either you reward cooperating (= do not reward missing cooperation) or you do not. There is no way to reward cooperation and NOT punish missing cooperation. I am not punishing freedom, because what you call freedom is actually only the freedom to not play the whole game and only focus on a certain aspect. That's nothing I'd call worth preserving.

Because actually we are not talking about two different playstyles, like style A and style B, we are talking about playing "more" or "less", because hack and slay is only a part of tactical gameplay. It's not like tactics removed the need to kill people. Currently the game is only rewarding like up to 60% effort. If people also want to apply teamwork, which would raise the effort over 60% (=60%+), they would not get rewarded more for it, compared to the 60%- people.

You want to kill people? Fine, here is the reward proportional to your effort. You want to kill people and do it the smart way? Well, then you deserve more rewards. Here you are.

I don't see anything wrong or limiting with it. It's like complaining that people who go to work earn more than people who are on welfare. Because it limits people's freedom to only be on welfare. (Let's assume in this example that they have the choice). Who does more gets more, who does less gets less.


The system does not punish people who use tactics, what kind of horse shit is this. Clans that use teamwork and tactics win rounds. Last I checked winning rounds gave you multi.

That is right. But those people who are in the team of that clan but did NOT participate in teamplay get those rewards, too, and this is unfair. Individual rewards are the way to go. Everyone should be rewarded according to his effort.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Moncho on May 13, 2013, 01:07:39 pm
One thing your idea would kill is flanking agi shielders. When I play one, all I do is get away from the big groups, dodge cav, and pray for somewhere to hide. Then, when the forces are engaged, I go up to the enemy archers' backs and kill 3-4 before they realise.

With your system, I would get a grand total of 0 points, even if my team defeats the enemies very fast, since a shielder killing archers would not get any points at all, which makes no sense whatsoever (same as a pikeman killing cav would not either)...

Other than that, there are a few good points in there, but I doubt anything will ever happen.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 01:20:46 pm
One thing your idea would kill is flanking agi shielders. When I play one, all I do is get away from the big groups, dodge cav, and pray for somewhere to hide. Then, when the forces are engaged, I go up to the enemy archers' backs and kill 3-4 before they realise.

With your system, I would get a grand total of 0 points, even if my team defeats the enemies very fast, since a shielder killing archers would not get any points at all, which makes no sense whatsoever (same as a pikeman killing cav would not either)...

Other than that, there are a few good points in there, but I doubt anything will ever happen.

This is a valid point I have to accept as a counter argument. Indeed you would get poor rewards.

I personally say that I do NOT recommend any single man flanking maneuvers, especially not if you are a shielder, because you are almost defenseless against cav, as they can play the "get bumped or get bumped and lanced" game with you. The maps in cRPG usually just don't allow any flanking. So if you die doing so, you contributed little, and thus it's okay if your rewards are little. But if you manage to pull this off you DO deserve a reward.

Your scenario is difficult to balance, because of the simple reason that it shows behaviour which is not (and should not/can not) be the average behaviour. You can't have all shielder sneak over the flanks up on a few archers and cut them down. Perhaps there could be some kind of "skirmisher mode" you can activate at the beginning of the round, which grants you different rewards? But this would require a few tweaks, to prevent people of activating the skirmisher mode and then going into full melee. Perhaps like the flag area or every teammate more than 5 around you lowering your rewards, something like that, you know?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: F i n on May 13, 2013, 01:24:58 pm
I generally like yoir suggestions. even if i have to sleep for like 2 hours after reading them so my eyess dont explode.


I think the greedy-killseeking gamestyle just atarted with the introduction of the multiplier. a more playerbased reward system would be much better. (than valour) ...

cus i think if a peasant stops a horse with his pitchfork so his teammates can do the job, hes done better than a plated greatmauler crushing though a peasants block.


+1 ed


(even if i think that crpg was better without a multiplier and upkeep)
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2013, 02:15:55 pm
so, before I read it: This is only a suggestion for a non-existent conquest mode while battle or siege or any other mode should stay as they are or are simply ignored, right?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 02:19:30 pm
so, before I read it: This is only a suggestion for a non-existent conquest mode while battle or siege or any other mode should stay as they are or are simply ignored, right?

Actually it is meant for the moment when battle mode is turned into conquest mode, but you can apply it on the current battle mode as well.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2013, 02:29:41 pm
Actually it is meant for the moment when battle mode is turned into conquest mode, but you can apply it on the current battle mode as well.

Battle mode turned into conquest, wtf? Did I miss something?  :shock:
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 02:40:58 pm
Battle mode turned into conquest, wtf? Did I miss something?  :shock:

No, you did not. But it's (one of the few) more or less accepted opinions in the forum that battle mode should turn into conquest mode. And as the devs already made something similar for siege...  :wink:
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2013, 02:44:29 pm
[...]
That is right. But those people who are in the team of that clan but did NOT participate in teamplay get those rewards, too, and this is unfair. Individual rewards are the way to go. Everyone should be rewarded according to his effort.
What a nonsense... do you even play battle once in a while? When there is a rather big team of one clan, there is always a bunch of "randomers" just tagging along and working instantly together with the clan group. Happens more or less every single round.
Besides, we barely have new bloods and maps are basicly all overplayed. Everyone knows what to do on this or that map to achieve the highest possibility for the team to win. There is no need to force people to anything...
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: F i n on May 13, 2013, 02:45:06 pm
No, you did not. But it's (one of the few) more or less accepted opinions in the forum that battle mode should turn into conquest mode. And as the devs already made something similar for siege...  :wink:


i think that would kinda break the game. i always liked the casual battle thingy where you could create own objectives (like punch xynox to death).  if there was a conquest mode it should replace one of the battle servers maybe but not battle itself.


but theres still a good reason for a new rewarding system - nevermind the gamemode
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 03:00:05 pm
What a nonsense... do you even play battle once in a while? When there is a rather big team of one clan, there is always a bunch of "randomers" just tagging along and working instantly together with the clan group. Happens more or less every single round.
Besides, we barely have new bloods and maps are basicly all overplayed. Everyone knows what to do on this or that map to achieve the highest possibility for the team to win. There is no need to force people to anything...

I haven't played battle for some time, but it was the only mode I played while I was active. And what I saw there was a display of ignorance and unwill to do anything else than to press [W] until the enemy is reached and then spam until you are hacked down. It was literally zombie-like. And whenever I saw a clan on the server, they usually stuck together, follow by not more than a hand full of random teammates who know how things are done, but the rest going for the autowalker-Rambo-lemming mode business as usual. And even those clan group usually tended to seperate from the team, to have a glorious last stand. Byzantinum did this on purpose for example, and admitted it. This is nothing I'd call teamplay.

Can be that your observations differ from mine. But my perception is all I got for judging things, and I described my perception above. Enemy team waiting in some ruins, having cavalry superiority, my team charging over the open field three or four times in a row, having 50% losses only due to cavalry, I write "wait for THEM to come, or their cav will always ride you down while you are moving" and all I get as answer is "no, just charge". How fucking braindead is this? It kills my fun on public servers, and makes me write those suggestions.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2013, 03:46:15 pm
No, you did not. But it's (one of the few) more or less accepted opinions in the forum that battle mode should turn into conquest mode.

where is that written? I seems more like you transfer your personal opinion onto others.

also how you interpret this info from the other secret thing?  "Not many changes planned there, don't fix it if it ain't broken. The classic battle will stay. "
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 03:53:56 pm
where is that written? I seems more like you transfer your personal opinion onto others.

Of course I'd like conquest mode. But whenever it is mentioned on the forum (not only by me) I usually see a few comments agreeing, and no comments declining it. Which on this forum already mean something.

But to be honest, I don't believe anything will be done about the game, either. I think it's dead. I just wanted to see how people like my idea. They do not, in general, bad luck for me, but doesn't change anything anyways. Even if everyone went crazy and I got like +200 for my suggestion, nothing would be done. The At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square., chadz didn't even bother to appoint his successors.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2013, 03:56:59 pm
I haven't played battle for some time, but it was the only mode I played while I was active. [...]
So, you don't play battle, maybe not even the game and still you feel fit to make suggestions? Am I really supposed to take anything coming from you concerning the mod serious?

If you're not playing, you're not in the position to make proper suggestions.

I get more and more the impression that you're actually just jumping around, shouting "LOOK AT ME! LOOOOOOK AT MEEEEE!"
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 03:59:22 pm
So, you don't play battle, maybe not even the game and still you feel fit to make suggestions? Am I really supposed to take anything coming from you concerning the mod serious?

If you're not playing, you're not in the position to make proper suggestions.

I think I was on the servers for the last time two or three months ago. I know there has been a lot of change and new fathers and patches and such lately, but still I hope the game is the same after all the time?  :?

Seriously, I have over 1500hours of WB, with a good part of it being cRPG.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Kafein on May 13, 2013, 04:01:41 pm
Battle mode never changed. What was true about it the day after the doom patch that ruined everything back in january 2011 is still true now.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2013, 04:16:54 pm
...says another guy rarely playing Battle.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2013, 04:19:49 pm
Of course I'd like conquest mode. But whenever it is mentioned on the forum (not only by me) I usually see a few comments agreeing, and no comments declining it. Which on this forum already mean something.

So, "I like conquest" = "Replace battle with conquest"?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 05:41:36 pm
So, "I like conquest" = "Replace battle with conquest"?

More like "battle mode has some real downsides, it needs to be reworked."
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2013, 05:49:37 pm
More like "battle mode has some real downsides, it needs to be reworked."
Says someone who isn't even playing it!

You don't like it? Fine. Don't play it. I like the simplicity that battle has. No stupid objectives, flags and whatnot. If you wanna change something then do it with Siege or DTV, I don't care.

I like battle how it is. Stay away from it.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Teeth on May 13, 2013, 06:11:19 pm
No, you do not just force pubs to teamplay. It's their choice whether they want to teamplay or go fuck around and be a rambo. Their choice - if they want to teamplay, they go find a clan that uses voice com and does teamplay. Why should you punish the way they want to play the game?  Why should you kill the melee assassins which specialize in kills for example? With this you're punishing certain gameplay styles to focus completely on teamwork. Newsflash - not everyone wants to teamwork. Some just want to get in and mindlessly hack and slash away at people. It's their loss already if they didn't protect their archers and shit like that with losing a round. But punishing certain playstyles is punishing fun and linearizing gameplay.

You are introducing a single metagame because you're defining roles for each class - what each class should be doing to max their points. Anything done out of that job is penalized by not getting/getting less points.
I don't get why people think that 'freedom to choose how you play' is somehow untouchable.  Changing mechanics, as Joker is proposing, does involve a change in what way people are forced to play. Mechanics do however always force you to play a certain way, it is what game mechanics do. I'd like the play as Batman, but I can't. That is not unfair, that is game design. How is being penalized for being a rambo retard so unjustified? Just because you could play a certain way before makes it a crime against humanity to take that away?

It's like saying you can't remove ladders because it forces archers to play on the ground, not every archer wants to do that, so you can't remove ladders. It's their choice if they want to to be on a roof or not, why should you punish the way they want to play the game?

This backwards argumentation will never allow improving a game ever, it simply enforces the status quo. This suggestion still allows everyone to be as much of a rambo retard as he wants, he just wouldn't get rewarded for it, which is fine by me. Being a rambo retard is a privilege, not a divine right. You couldn't be a rambo retard in old cRPG, was that hugely unfair and outrageous, because that is how you seem to describe this change.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 06:16:27 pm
Says someone who isn't even playing it!

Stop claiming that making 2 or 3 months of a break disqualify you from knowing how battle works, never mind how long you played it before. It just doesn't work.

You don't like it? Fine. Don't play it. I like the simplicity that battle has. No stupid objectives, flags and whatnot. If you wanna change something then do it with Siege or DTV, I don't care.

I like battle how it is. Stay away from it.

Well, tastes are different. Battle mode has the problem that archers and cavalry are actually more suited for it than infantry, as latter lack the level of flexibility of the first two classes, which has a massive negative impact on their gameplay and fun level (for many players, not for everyone, of course). That's why people constantly complain about archers or cavalry. You don't hear people from other game mode complain, do you? It's a matter of fact that infantry in battle mode is rather a passive class which has to react on all the attacks from the other classes for most of the time. And no balancing can change that. The fact that archers can shoot you from distance and that horses can backstab you are not fixed by lowering lance or bow damage. Infantry is the worst class in terms of picking their target, and everything is about picking your target when the goal is to kill the enemy team.

So at least from my side it's not only about the "flow of the battle" or whatever, it's also about class balance. Because in my eyes archers and cavalry are nerfed to shit compared to infantry, but still some people will claim the classes are OP. It's because the game mode favours them.

Now that left aside, I just like to mention that "replace battle mode with conquest mode" is only half of my opinion. It's actually "split battle mode into round based conquest and team deathmatch with respawns.". So those of the community who love hack and slay can go on the DM server, and those who prefer having real battles (instead of a lot of simultaneous duels like now) go on the conquest server. But if this was done (which won't happen, because nothing will be done any more, I guess), I bet most infantry players would sooner or later switch to the conquest server. The gameplay will be more rewarding for them.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2013, 06:36:34 pm
More like "battle mode has some real downsides, it needs to be reworked."

You are eluding the point. You said it is an accepted opinion on the forum that battle should be replaced with conquest. When I replied I believe it is rather your own opinion you answered that whenever conquest is mentioned no one is against it. Argument, wtf?

It's actually "split battle mode into round based conquest and team deathmatch with respawns.". So those of the community who love hack and slay can go on the DM server, and those who prefer having real battles (instead of a lot of simultaneous duels like now) go on the conquest server.

Battle has quite another appeal for many players that is not served with either TDM/DM or a conquest like mod. It has much to do with the simple and free goal "kill enemy team" combined with no respawning. Though it certainly wore down over the years it has an intensity no respawn or forced goal mode could hope to achieve, IMO.

For example I would like to see a siege mode which is more like current battle, without any respawning. For that we would need extremely perfect siege maps with real big advantage for defenders that would only work with a fix number of players (double attackers or so). So its unlikely but I think it would be much more intense than anything that works with "flags" or similar artificial goals.

Of course these modes have their advantages, too. I like to see a good conquest but it is no replacement for battle. If we have enough players for both kind of modes is another matter, though.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Konrax on May 13, 2013, 06:46:15 pm
I think it's difficult to come up with a reward system for this mod until we hear directly from some of the devs as far as what ways we can affect experience gain.

So far this is more a wishlist without some input.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 13, 2013, 08:46:32 pm
You are eluding the point. You said it is an accepted opinion on the forum that battle should be replaced with conquest. When I replied I believe it is rather your own opinion you answered that whenever conquest is mentioned no one is against it. Argument, wtf?

Well, when I only read things like "conquest would be nice" and "yes, it battle mode seems to cause some problems" I assumed it would be pretty accepted. Especially since there was no noticeable amount of "I don't like the conquest mode idea" posts I have stumbled upon. Which in this forums means something. Just go and write in any thread without connection to the topic that you think archers should do more damage or run faster. Or that lances/horses should do more damage, or that horses should have more hitpoints, and see what happens  :wink:


Battle has quite another appeal for many players that is not served with either TDM/DM or a conquest like mod. It has much to do with the simple and free goal "kill enemy team" combined with no respawning. Though it certainly wore down over the years it has an intensity no respawn or forced goal mode could hope to achieve, IMO.

For example I would like to see a siege mode which is more like current battle, without any respawning. For that we would need extremely perfect siege maps with real big advantage for defenders that would only work with a fix number of players (double attackers or so). So its unlikely but I think it would be much more intense than anything that works with "flags" or similar artificial goals.

Of course these modes have their advantages, too. I like to see a good conquest but it is no replacement for battle. If we have enough players for both kind of modes is another matter, though.

Bloody Nine, I think once again we can agree that we disagree. I guess we reached a point where it's a matter of taste and nothing else. I do like the one life you got in battle, too (just in case there was some misunderstanding: in difference to Smoothrich, who is also lobbying for conquest mode, I am against respawns. Players need to have only one life so that there is actually a thrill in the game with the possibility to die). I just don't like the missing focus of battle. Usually after the first quarter of the round most teams are scattered all over their half of the map. To me it often creates the feeling of many duellants looking for each other in a multi-duel-mode, and I guess it's the attitude of quite a lot players out there. But I think there is more in this game than that, and in addition I think there is no "decision" to be made. You don't have to choose between two different playstyles, you have to choose between going deeper into the game or not. And quite frankly, you don't even have to choose. Nobody can stop you from running away.

I can understand that people enjoy battle mode in its current shape. But I think there is so much more to this game than just hacking and stabbing. And I do have the (I can't deny you could call it "arrogant") opinion, that sometimes you have to force something good upon the people so they can like it. When the potatoe came from America, nobody in Germany liked it. Some people stole the (poisonous) fruits of the potatoe and even died of it, further cementing the bad reputation. The German Emperor found a funny trick and let his soldiers guard the potatoe fields all day long. The peasants became curious why he should have simple vegetables guarded that well and stole some potatoes at night to give them another chance. And they liked them. And now we Germans are sometimes even called "potatoes", for the amount of potatoes we eat.

This example is to show that such things don't only work with children, but also with full grown people. I bet if people gave it a shot, they would discover a lot of nice aspects, and they would see that there is no need to learn a different behaviour, there is only need to learn some new things. I mean, I spent some time thinking about battle mode, upkeep and multiplier system. Really sitting down and thinking about it. I don't think everybody who plays cRPG did that. So how can I know people who refuse my suggestions are at the same state of knowledge and awareness about different aspects of the game? How can I know it's not the old "Something new? Dun' like it!"-attitude people tend to have (me included, but mainly concerning other things. My brother's new PC with Windows 8 is driving me crazy. No start button? Really, Microsoft?)?

That's my point of view. I hope I didn't sound too arrogant, and I definitely don't want to limit somebody or destroy his fun. But it's like with a new dish: people often are sceptic. And perhaps they smell it, and they don't like it. Most dishes taste like they smell, but not all do. All I want people is to try my new dish, and in this case trying means thinking about it properly. And if I notice someone is making a good point like Moncho did (he found a flaw in my system) I do accept it. I am far from perfect or infallible. But if I see that I spend quite some time thinking about a matter, finding the best solution I could, and then people react like "I didn't read everything, but your suggestion is bullshit", how can I take that serious? Some matters ARE highly complicated, and they need some effort and training period, and if I receive such an answer I simply stay stubborn.

Sorry for the long post, but I know you as reasonable and smart guy, so apparently I felt the urge to explain myself to you.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Glyph on May 13, 2013, 10:24:14 pm
First of, Joker, you have the incredeble power to convince me every single time, not because I'm a fan or anything alike, but in all the posts and replies you make, I can see you've really put effort into making them and thinking about the game and how it could be improved. More people should acknowledge that.

Now on to the real business, I think your suggestion significantly reduces the amount of unfair and undeserved money and exp get when they're in a team that is very good(where for example a clan cooperating to win) and rewarding those who work together do what they can to help their team. Moncho has a very good point which is a flaw in this rewarding system for the mod, but there are WAY more flaws in the current system.

What I've noticed about the community is that almost everyone is afraid of change. That is very logical, it could drastically change the way you are currently playing(and hopefully enjoying the game), maybe it does only hurt your way of playing. but if it helps the mod to be more populair and serve the biggest amount of players you possibly can, it should happen.

A lot of people keep say that they want to rambo and kill on their own, but I don't see why, because every time there is a mayor coming together of the community, like on thursday, people make seperate posts with screenshots and whatnot and talk about how great it was to see the clans together and be with so many people doing one thing. Which is teamwork.

Another thing I'd like to ask to those who object to have a system like this implemented into the game, is: Why did you buy Warband? Because one of the mayor things I thought was awsome is the teamwork. The youtube clips showing how 50 people in a row hold their shields up so the archers can soften up the enemy team without dying. Then everyone charges in and the killing commences. another scenario is that 20 people are in a siege tower waiting for the hatch to open so they can all storm out while in the gap in the wall people are forming up because they know what's coming at them in a minute. I love this game not because I can duel with people on my own, but because a big group of a hundred people can charge into another group of a hundred people which has a certain thing to it, doing it all together is a big thing in this game and that's why I think it should be rewarded.

I too, like Joker am a person that thinks about the game for a long time, not how awsome my kills were today but how to improve the game, most of those times I've deeply thought about it, improving comes down to mayorly changing the mod. I know there is only a minute(bloody small) chance this will ever happen though, which is a shame IMO. Anyhow, I will keep thinking of solutions to make the mod near to perfect, because I love the mod and community.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Kafein on May 13, 2013, 11:05:17 pm
...says another guy rarely playing Battle.

Which implies battle mode actually changed during the last months ? I "rarely" played it enough to tell you it didn't. Except there's almost no cav now, which doesn't change my point.

Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Dooz on May 14, 2013, 09:45:12 am
guys this emperor is trying to give us peasants a potato so lets just pretend we're hungry and fire up those fryers ok
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Haboe on May 14, 2013, 10:06:40 am
Complicated, hard to programm, harder to balance.

I kinda like it.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Lannistark on May 14, 2013, 10:10:39 am
This certainly looks promising. I completely agree with effort and teamwork being highly rewarded instead of bear force and performance. The thing is the suggestion lies obnoxious to the easy counter-argument: How in Earth are you going to balance this?
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Molly on May 14, 2013, 10:33:38 am
Stop claiming that making 2 or 3 months of a break disqualify you from knowing how battle works, never mind how long you played it before. It just doesn't work.

Well, tastes are different. Battle mode has the problem that archers and cavalry are actually more suited for it than infantry, as latter lack the level of flexibility of the first two classes, which has a massive negative impact on their gameplay and fun level (for many players, not for everyone, of course). That's why people constantly complain about archers or cavalry. You don't hear people from other game mode complain, do you? It's a matter of fact that infantry in battle mode is rather a passive class which has to react on all the attacks from the other classes for most of the time. And no balancing can change that. The fact that archers can shoot you from distance and that horses can backstab you are not fixed by lowering lance or bow damage. Infantry is the worst class in terms of picking their target, and everything is about picking your target when the goal is to kill the enemy team.

So at least from my side it's not only about the "flow of the battle" or whatever, it's also about class balance. Because in my eyes archers and cavalry are nerfed to shit compared to infantry, but still some people will claim the classes are OP. It's because the game mode favours them.

Now that left aside, I just like to mention that "replace battle mode with conquest mode" is only half of my opinion. It's actually "split battle mode into round based conquest and team deathmatch with respawns.". So those of the community who love hack and slay can go on the DM server, and those who prefer having real battles (instead of a lot of simultaneous duels like now) go on the conquest server. But if this was done (which won't happen, because nothing will be done any more, I guess), I bet most infantry players would sooner or later switch to the conquest server. The gameplay will be more rewarding for them.
Just no. I don't want stupid respawning or I would play siege. I like my battle how it is.
It's still hilarious in my eyes that you just wanna change something that people like, obviously cuz otherwise EU1 would be empty all day.

You're not suggestion "some changes to battle", you wanna completely replace it with something you wanna play. That's pretty arrogant.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 14, 2013, 11:33:24 am
Just no. I don't want stupid respawning or I would play siege. I like my battle how it is.
It's still hilarious in my eyes that you just wanna change something that people like, obviously cuz otherwise EU1 would be empty all day.

You're not suggestion "some changes to battle", you wanna completely replace it with something you wanna play. That's pretty arrogant.

EU1 isn't full all day either, but it used to.

And pretty much most suggestions revolve around replacing one thing with something the author prefers.

I need the people actually "being into conquest mode", so that the change takes some effect. But I fear if conquest runs parallely to battle mode, we will first have the conquest server being full and the battle server being empty all day, just because conquest is the new thing. But once the thrill of the new is gone, all those people who still have not adjusted to the new game mode will switch back to battle. And I don't know what the percentage is. I expect them to not be that many, because the adjustment is not difficult or something like that. But on the other hand: we are talking about the cRPG community here. And yes, I want as many fellow players on the conquest server as possible. The more the merrier.

And the other reason for a replacement is very simple: conquest mode would leave some room for buffing archers and cav. And if you did that, battle would become unplayable for infantry again.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 14, 2013, 12:21:10 pm
tl;dr ?!  :lol:

You don't have to.  :wink:
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Thomek on May 14, 2013, 12:56:09 pm
Here is an audio file of the text for those not bothered to read:

http://192.20.225.36/tts/speech/ab76b7c0198ecd048ad76284f5421f1e.wav (http://192.20.225.36/tts/speech/ab76b7c0198ecd048ad76284f5421f1e.wav)

nvm.. doesn't work
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 14, 2013, 01:13:50 pm
Here is an audio file of the text for those not bothered to read:

http://192.20.225.36/tts/speech/ab76b7c0198ecd048ad76284f5421f1e.wav (http://192.20.225.36/tts/speech/ab76b7c0198ecd048ad76284f5421f1e.wav)

nvm.. doesn't work

Aww couldve used something like that.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 14, 2013, 01:34:10 pm
thx for the kind words.

I think the potato comparison limps heavily (:D), but it makes your point clear anyhow.

Leaving aside that there is no conquest mode in sight for crpg your suggestion would need to be tested and fleshed out of course, but that would require a lot of resources that would be better invested in M:BG, imo. Apart from that I have to say I am very skeptical, because

- i think it is way too complicated
- may leed to awkward situations, e.g.: "mh, I don't attack this guy because it's not in an area around a flag/ because he is my target-class etc." (yeah, yeah, testing and tweaking, but still)
- if everybody wants "them" to do the death blow (which I don't believe will happen in a game like this), who does the killing?
- similar to what vibe says, you force people to play a certain style. you say shield class is more defensive? fine, but others may want to play an aggressive shielder
- how to define classes? Is it determined by which weapon I grab? my build? If its the weapon I get more points while standing near Teammates killing heavy inf while carrying a bow than a 2h? So i switch accordingly even if doesn't make the team win? If it's the build I make an archer build and grab a 2h and kill cav to get more points?

In general I think everything else than rewarding the team for winning the game is not a good idea. Better rework how a team wins the round than this crazy complicated stuff.


and no, really just forget about replacing battle with conquest.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Glyph on May 14, 2013, 06:31:06 pm
I've been away for some time and apperetnly I've missed out on something. What exactly is M:BG? can't really find a thread about it.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: Joker86 on May 14, 2013, 07:08:45 pm
- i think it is way too complicated

I think that's not too much of a problem, since the players don't have to interact with the reward system. They can do the stuff they want, and just get the according rewards for it. It's only important to know for them that they should target certain classes more than others, but this often happens naturally by the different strengthes and weaknesses of the classes.

- may leed to awkward situations, e.g.: "mh, I don't attack this guy because it's not in an area around a flag/ because he is my target-class etc." (yeah, yeah, testing and tweaking, but still)

If someone decides to do so, it is okay. I don't think it will make such a big difference anyway. Let's say that one guy grants you something like 20 gold (he is about the same level like you). If you were in a flag area, you get let's say 10% more, which is 2 gold. If he is in the flag area as well, you get another 2 gold. Which means you are at 24. Your multiplier after the battle is 0.8 (it should usually by smaller than 1, even if you win), which means you will get 19 gold for him at the end of the round. If none of you was around the flag area, it would have been 16 gold for that one guy. But it doesn't matter anyway, because if you killed him by yourself, you would not get rewards.  :P


- if everybody wants "them" to do the death blow (which I don't believe will happen in a game like this), who does the killing?

"They" do. Ideally the class which doesn't get a reward for that enemy dying anyway, but if not that teammate of yours will kill him, who he went after, because in that moment you think "Shit! Stay away from me! Bugger off! Aaarrgghh" and kill him anyway, you don't care for rewards in that moment. Else it would mean you stay totally passive and only wait for being hit after missing a block.


- similar to what vibe says, you force people to play a certain style. you say shield class is more defensive? fine, but others may want to play an aggressive shielder

You are free to do so, and you will still get all rewards for killed enemies around you and all the other stuff. For example if you are aggressive you will charge the enemies, and those will be found around flags, and as you get more points for being around flags...

My point is, that instead of being aggressive, you could also place yourself at a point where you could protect other players, block enemies, defend archers and grant them cover, etc., and in my eyes this is "more" than just charging mindlessly. That's why I would grant more rewards for that.

Every class has a role in a game. The role of shielder would be best described as "tank" like in RPGs, the thing he is best in is blocking incoming damage. So if someone plays the class after its strength, it's only natural to reward him. Somehow I got the impression people think my system is unfair to people. And I think, the current system is unfair to people.


- how to define classes? Is it determined by which weapon I grab? my build? If its the weapon I get more points while standing near Teammates killing heavy inf while carrying a bow than a 2h? So i switch accordingly even if doesn't make the team win? If it's the build I make an archer build and grab a 2h and kill cav to get more points?

It is the skills you have + the equipment you use. I don't think it's difficult to check. Most things can already be checed on the webside, and the data can be prepared for the log in on the server. Then the game only needs to check your equipment whenever you spawn, and there you go.

And you can make an archer build and try to kill cav with 2hd, but you would most likely fail due to the archer build, and yes, you would get additional points for illing that cav, but you'd have to go in melee, and as you are an archer you would not get any points for the kills around you. So I don't know if that's worth the small differences in your income...  :?

In general I think everything else than rewarding the team for winning the game is not a good idea. Better rework how a team wins the round than this crazy complicated stuff.

Rewarding people independantly from their performance supports douchebaggery. Yes, every player contributes to the outcome of the round, but in such a small extend (in most cases) that it actually doesn't matter for him how he performs. He can do like shit, teamhit five times, get killed by a peasant and still get rewards for winning the round, whereas someone else can kill eight experienced players in a row and still lose the round, with the corresponding tiny rewards. This is highly unfair, and should be changed.

Effort = rewards. I don't get why people dislike that system.

I've been away for some time and apperetnly I've missed out on something. What exactly is M:BG? can't really find a thread about it.

It's the new crowdfunding project of the devs which killed cRPG-development completely. There was a period where you could donate something, and in return you got access to a development subforum which is invisible for the rest of us.

M:BG stands for Melee: Battlegrounds. It's basically meant to be a cRPG standalone.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 14, 2013, 09:15:28 pm
M:BG is under NDA. So don't tell around outside crpg community for now.
Title: Re: Possible solution for reward system - kill multiplier finally!!!
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 14, 2013, 09:56:43 pm
Change game mode to strategus battle mode.

I think vibe's signature sums up my response adequately:

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