cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: En_Dotter on May 01, 2013, 12:27:58 am
Title: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 01, 2013, 12:27:58 am
Hello everyone. I have conduced an experiment with a clan mate to see how much athletics affects speed if you are an archer. We have concluded that low athletics archer and high athletics archer with the same gear have really small speed difference. Our experiment might not be statistically accurate because we did 10 measurements per experiment. This is how we did it.
SETUP
Experiment 1:
Same weight armor parts: 9.4kg (9.7kg of effective armor weight) Weapons: none (0kg) 30 meters run. 10m were used to gain maximum speed and time measurement takes place at the last 20m. Archer1 agility/athletics: 27/0 Archer2 agility/athletics: 24/8
Experiment 2:
Same weight armor parts: 9.4kg (9.7kg of effective armor weight) Weapon: sheeted Masterwork Horn Bow (2.7kg) and 3 sets of Masterwork Bodkin arrows (3*10kg). Total mass of 32.7 30 meters run. 10m were used to gain maximum speed and time measurement takes place at the last 20m. Archer1 agility/athletics: 27/0 Archer2 agility/athletics: 24/8
RESULTS
Experiment 1
Archer1 average speed: 3.78m/s Archer2 average speed: 4.36m/s
Experiment 2
Archer1 average speed: 3.46m/s Archer2 average speed: 3.87m/s
CONCLUSION
Archer (could be approximated to any other class) with no weapon has an advantage of having athletics skill. Difference between athletics 0 and athletics 8 with agility difference of 27 to 24 is notable. Archer with 24 agility and 8 athletics is ~13.3% faster than the other one. Or in plain numbers if they were running from the same starting position the archer with 24/8 (agi/ath) build would gain 1m advantage for every 7.52m they ran. On the other hand if they both have additional 32.7kg on their backs you can see that the difference in speed decreases. The average speed difference has dropped from ~13% to 11%. That means that the 24/8 archer must run 9.44 meters in order to gain 1m advantage of distance over 27/0 archer. That means he needs to run additional 1.92 meters to do the same effect. Is bonus 1 meters after running 9.5 meters a big advantage?
The question is, is it now even worth investing in athletics? The speed difference between those 2 builds doesnt seem quite obvious...
EDIT: I added some more info at the end. I forgot to thank Big_Shot for helping me do this experiment. And also i have to thank BlindGuy for reminding me that i need to go back to school and learn maths again. I posted false results when i opened the thread and thanks to him i corrected them.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: BlindGuy on May 01, 2013, 01:10:08 am
Well either u have posted results back to front or you got lost somewhere in school and forgot how to math. Also take the sheet off the bow it creates wind drag.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Tibe on May 01, 2013, 02:02:19 am
Frankly adding ath over 3 as an archer in my alt, seemed rather pointless to me. But thats due to the fact that I went melee/archer hybrid and I dont run from fights, if they are 1 vs me or even 2 vs me.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 01, 2013, 03:07:43 am
Well either u have posted results back to front or you got lost somewhere in school and forgot how to math. Also take the sheet off the bow it creates wind drag.
Tnx for this post. I had correct data but i dont know how i failed to calculate the correct stuff after i collected the data... I was talking on TS, talking with ppl in my room and doing calculations... I have corrected the results and i still didnt find out how i made such a retarded result last time...
Tnx again!
EDIT: I will do testing with bow in the hand and with other armor types and different weapon combinations.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Xscizorx on May 01, 2013, 03:31:55 am
This is pretty interesting. Thank you for taking your time and doing this, haven't seen it anywhere else.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Macropus on May 01, 2013, 10:03:35 am
Athletics is worth it, but it's not about maximum running speed. It's more about you being able to dodge that horseman or not, or jump over that fence, ect PS: but for archers though, with their 20kg arrows, it might really be not that useful...
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Teeth on May 01, 2013, 10:40:36 am
What this experiment completely misses is the effect of athlethics on acceleration, the most important aspect of movement speed, at least for melee. In my experience a full strength guy is not all that much slower top speed compared to a high agi build. But when you start taking turns, side stepping and moving forward and then backwards, then you will notice a huge difference caused by athlethics. As a full strength in plate you can't even stop immediately, your character will slide onwards a bit after you stopped pressing forward. Acceleration is so much more important than top speed.
Also, I can not quite agree that a 10% speed difference is insignificant. It means that you get a meter distance every 10 m from the other guy, which means you easily outrun him. Also that the guy without athlethics has 3 more agility reduces the accuracy of the experiments, as agility affects movement speed as well. To truly estimate the effect of athlethics you need to have characters with the same agility.
In any case, here is a thread with extensive testing on the subject by WaltF4 for those that are interested, he knows his shit. Sadly his testing does not look at acceleration either. http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 01, 2013, 11:49:28 am
We did different agi points cus of this assumption: If u dont have athletics you would convert it to attributes, and lets say its agi. This isnt about hybrid builds, but dedicated archer build. Good point you made about acceleration. We will do experiments about acceleration then. We will do 10m run to check the acceleration.
We will assume the following: Starting speed=0 Max speed is achieved after 10m run and will be equal to average speed of the previous experiment. Acceleration=(Max speed)/(time to reach 10m mark)
While this might not be 100% realistic we need to make some way of controlling the conditions. If you have a better idea of setting up the experiment please write down your idea.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Kafein on May 01, 2013, 12:25:10 pm
As Teeth said, this may be accurate but top speed isn't critical in this game. At least not as much as acceleration and inertia reduction.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Ronin on May 01, 2013, 12:39:10 pm
As Teeth said, this may be accurate but top speed isn't critical in this game. At least not as much as acceleration and inertia reduction.
For a melee character, acceleration is more important than running speed; because you'll need to change your movements within seconds in close quarters. Archer on the other hand needs the running speed more than acceleration as a pure archer will try to avoid melee as much as possible. Since archers can't kite anymore with those 10 kg arrow quivers, it is more about positioning (climbing up a hill, roof etc.).
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Kafein on May 01, 2013, 02:13:51 pm
For a melee character, acceleration is more important than running speed; because you'll need to change your movements within seconds in close quarters. Archer on the other hand needs the running speed more than acceleration as a pure archer will try to avoid melee as much as possible. Since archers can't kite anymore with those 10 kg arrow quivers, it is more about positioning (climbing up a hill, roof etc.).
Acceleration is important for archers too. Dodging cav, making turns while being chased... And besides if you want to stand your ground the melee argument is relevant
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Adamar on May 01, 2013, 02:46:29 pm
Movement speed and running speed are 2 diferente things. Archers lack both right now.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Haboe on May 01, 2013, 02:48:59 pm
Post results, i assume you made 10+ runs on each setting and compared them?
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Mala on May 01, 2013, 03:33:54 pm
Yes, athletics has a positive effect on your speed, but the result is not that huge.
Here a quick comparison ath 7 vs ath 0 and what would happen, if i would save the points in athletics and shift them into agility.
The distance was about 16 m and the 7 points in athletics have saved me one second.
And another try, this time 2* 2.4 m. With ath 7 i was a 1/4 second faster.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: NuberT on May 01, 2013, 04:02:41 pm
Wasn't athletics only affecting acceleration? So endspeed on flat terrain was the same with 0 or 10 athletics.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Haboe on May 01, 2013, 04:29:34 pm
Wasn't athletics only affecting acceleration? So endspeed on flat terrain was the same with 0 or 10 athletics.
I thought so as well, maybe changed at some point? I know i always walk in front and gain more distance from the ones behind me in stratbattles, though everyone has the same gear there.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Penitent on May 01, 2013, 04:36:20 pm
Good experiment...but it sounds like you used the 1st 10m to gain speed and then measured the last 20m?
Athletics increases acceleration...so the first 10m will show the biggest difference and the advantage of having athletics. It's more important than the last 20m, so you should do all tests from a dead stop.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 01, 2013, 06:50:53 pm
Post results, i assume you made 10+ runs on each setting and compared them?
We did exactly 10 runs for each setting and used arithmetic average to calculate average top speed. While 10 runs might be a bit low, it takes some time to do this and we are a bit lazy. We might repeat the experiment later on. We did the experiments on HRE_Fallen_Training server on a map with marked distances. Total distance marked is 90m with markers on every 10m including starting position. We did 30m runs but measured 20m. We just wanted to test the max speed difference.
We might do acceleration tests tonight. If not tonight then maybe tomorrow and if we dont do them then expect them after the weekend.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Penitent on May 01, 2013, 07:05:41 pm
as far as I know, athletics does NOT affect top speed. All characters have the same top speed regardless of weight. The weight means it takes you longer to get to top speed.
This is my understanding anyways!
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Phew on May 01, 2013, 07:17:39 pm
as far as I know, athletics does NOT affect top speed. All characters have the same top speed regardless of weight. The weight means it takes you longer to get to top speed.
This is my understanding anyways!
No, agility and athletics both increase top speed: http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/?PHPSESSID=7o0cbpbnlu3hb85lk0mjuio252
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Penitent on May 01, 2013, 07:30:37 pm
No, agility and athletics both increase top speed: http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/?PHPSESSID=7o0cbpbnlu3hb85lk0mjuio252
I stand corrected! God bless Waltf4.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Teeth on May 01, 2013, 11:19:11 pm
We did different agi points cus of this assumption: If u dont have athletics you would convert it to attributes, and lets say its agi. This isnt about hybrid builds, but dedicated archer build. Good point you made about acceleration. We will do experiments about acceleration then. We will do 10m run to check the acceleration.
We will assume the following: Starting speed=0 Max speed is achieved after 10m run and will be equal to average speed of the previous experiment. Acceleration=(Max speed)/(time to reach 10m mark)
While this might not be 100% realistic we need to make some way of controlling the conditions. If you have a better idea of setting up the experiment please write down your idea.
Why do you say max speed is achieved after 10m? I thought max speed happened after a set time interval since you last blocked, sidestepped, etc, about 3 seconds in my experience. Which means these 3 seconds can result in different distances. Thinking about it there is not really a proper way to test acceleration or other important effects of athlethics. Your current test will tell you something, but actual conclusions are hard to draw from it, but it is probably as good as it gets.
Another interesting part of movement which can be easily tested, would be the movement speed without actually reaching top speed. This is the type of movement which archers use to strafe and shoot and dodge cav. Maybe you could do the same test as before but without allowing the character to reach top speed by constantly drawing a bow or something. This way you can determine whether athlethics significantly improves the 'after action' run speed.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Alexander_TheGreat_ on May 01, 2013, 11:37:56 pm
how do you know that u ran 30 meters? :O
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 02, 2013, 12:43:48 am
Why do you say max speed is achieved after 10m? I thought max speed happened after a set time interval since you last blocked, sidestepped, etc, about 3 seconds in my experience. Which means these 3 seconds can result in different distances. Thinking about it there is not really a proper way to test acceleration or other important effects of athlethics. Your current test will tell you something, but actual conclusions are hard to draw from it, but it is probably as good as it gets.
Another interesting part of movement which can be easily tested, would be the movement speed without actually reaching top speed. This is the type of movement which archers use to strafe and shoot and dodge cav. Maybe you could do the same test as before but without allowing the character to reach top speed by constantly drawing a bow or something. This way you can determine whether athlethics significantly improves the 'after action' run speed.
We abandoned 10 meter run. We did a 5m run. So we shouldnt really reach the top speed (buuut). Only problem is we did the forward movement. We are going to do strafe movement tomorrow most probably. Here are the results and setups. Note that we didnt use error in the final result (i dont think its rly much needed) so u wont see y=f(x)±f(z), but only y=f(x)
SETUP Archer1 (agi/ath)=24/8 Archer2 (agi/ath)=27/0 Distance (s)= 5m Time measurement (t): stopwatch that measures minimum of 0.1s 10 runs per test Acceleration (a)= 2s/t² 1st test: Total weight (m)=9.7kg (armor effective weight) 2nd test: m=9.7kg+32.7kg (armor effective weight 9.7kg, mw hornbow 2.7kg, 3x mw bodkin arrows 10kg each), weapon sheeted 3rd test: m=9.7kg +32.7kg (same as above), weapon unsheeted
RESULTS TEST 1
t1=1.41s a1=5.03m/s² t2=1.63s a2=3.76m/s²
TEST 2
t1=1.52s a1=4.32m/s² t2=1.63s a2=3.09m/s²
TEST 3
t1=1.62s a1=3.81m/s² t2=1.87s a2=2.86m/s²
DISCUSSION Those results suggest that you actually reach max speed quite faster than 3s we have read on some other threads. Now we have 2 different results. It would be quite nice if someone could do those tests independently to confirm which results are valid. According to our results you reach max speed at around 1s run time. If our results are correct that means that high athletics characters can reach top speed before they reach 5m distance. That could make our results slightly off, because the acceleration might be slightly higher than we calculated. For the sake of this experiment we will assume our results are correct. If you look at acceleration comparison it seems quite large, but dont forget that archers dont run 5 meters to dodge cavalry. By looking comparing our experience fighting the cavalry we concluded that average dodging distance done by archers is approx 2.5m (we didnt do statistical tests but rather used observation and experience and measured it on the map). With given acceleration values and distance of 2.5m we got the following results that are not looking so well in favor of athletics skill (weight and weapon sheet/unsheet conditions are the same ones we used for measuring acceleration):
Time to dodge in case 1: t1=1.00s t2=1.15s Δt=0.15s=150ms
Time to doge in case 2: t1=1.08s t2=1.27s Δt=0.19s=190ms
Time to dodge in case 3: t1=1.15s t2=1.32s Δt=0.17s=170ms
CONCLUSION Acceleration is much greater than we assumed so far. Characters need ~1s to reach max speed. There is a great difference in acceleration values between those two builds but the time acceleration takes place is rather short which is shown in the theoretical forward run escape from cavalry. Most common gear archer would have in strategus is bow, 2 quivers and a melee weapon (or no melee), or bow and 3 quivers. Since we decided to go extreme we are not sure that 170ms would count much considering horse speed. Our theoretical escape mechanism isnt used much in the game since most archers either strafe or jump in order to doge, or both of those actions. This experiment is done only to show how this may or may not influence dodging capabilities if someone would just run in a straight line. The most notable benefit from high athletics build would belong to players with higher pings. If they already have 100 ping and need additional 170ms to move to a desired location it could be really helpful, but for players with so called good pings we doubt it would mean a lot. We still need to check at least 3 more situations (1. strafe movement; 2. forward run with jump; 3. strafe with jump) before we can be brave enough to say whether athletics is really useful for archers or something that can be neglected in favor of attributes or some other skill.
EDIT: For all those that still dont understand how we got exact distances here is the explanation. There are props in the editor that have actual dimensions in meters (for example: 10m chain, 5m chain, 2m chain, etc). Now a fun fact: Did you know that our characters are 2m high?
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Thomek on May 02, 2013, 12:51:23 am
May I suggest you use video in stead of stopwatch to measure all this? You will need a stable quick software I guess.. Zoom in max and go far away to film it.
Then you can just put the footage on a timeline with overlays to see the speed differences. You should be able to calculate acceleration quite accurately too.
Check also if strength has any effect..
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: BlindGuy on May 03, 2013, 01:36:37 pm
^^ what Thomek put: STR also affects your speed.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: cmp on May 03, 2013, 01:56:26 pm
STR doesn't affect your speed.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2013, 02:07:34 pm
But does it reduce the weight penalty to movement?
It doesn't.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: cmp on May 03, 2013, 05:48:50 pm
^
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: En_Dotter on May 04, 2013, 01:30:09 pm
Are you sure str doesnt affect movement in any way. I need this information 100% confirmed so we dont need to setup our experiments again.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Butan on May 04, 2013, 01:50:42 pm
This confirms what I though : its almost useless to have ATH when you wear really heavy items.
Still, it is mitigated by acceleration like Teeth said, which is very very important if you ever want to change the course of your character in a fight.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Rhekimos on May 04, 2013, 02:01:49 pm
Are you sure str doesnt affect movement in any way. I need this information 100% confirmed so we dont need to setup our experiments again.
If you want to test it, have two guys run in heavy plate. One with just enough strength to wear it and a second character with same equipment and every point in strength. Same 3 agi and 0 ath for both of course.
If they run at the same speed, str has no effect.
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Juhanius on May 04, 2013, 09:46:10 pm
I feel like derp spending 8 skillpoints for so inefficient skill.
I feel like derp spending 8 skillpoints for so inefficient skill.
While i agree with you (with no valid data, but my own experience), i am not willing to make such a bold conclusion before we finish experimenting. Stay tuned, cus new experiments are gonna happen in a day or 2 (as soon as i return to my own pc...)
Title: Re: Athletics and character speed comparison
Post by: Sniger on May 05, 2013, 11:45:50 pm
speed is everything; in the universe, on earth and in every single game you play now and in future.