cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Angellore on April 22, 2013, 11:41:01 am
-
Let's compare two best bows, which can be used on horseback:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Yumi has +2 damage, but -4 missile speed. To show how much difference 4 missile speed is, I can only say worst bow in game, Short Bow, has 37 missile speed (2 more than Yumi, and it already feels pretty bad to aim on long distances). Between Rus Bow and Long Bow there is just 1 missile speed difference, and it's also noticable for their users.
Therefore 4 missile speed is just huge difference in terms of bows.
The main problem with Yumi is, you need to make 6 PD build to use it. And I wonder is it really worth making 6 PD build just to use this bow?
Missile speed also affects damage, so 4 missile speed less than Horn Bow decreases it's damage, and it's not small difference. From tests I did, Yumi has just slightly more damage than Horn Bow for close range shooting. But for longer range shooting Yumi is just terrible, with even lower damage and so much worse accuracy than Horn Bow. Damage difference between those bows (2 damage) isn't that big, because 4 missile speed difference takes most of it anyway. And since you have to make 6 PD build to use Yumi, you loses tones of accuracy with this build.
For me it looks like person who balanced those bows, didn't tried them in game. On paper 4 missile speed more and 1 PD less required for 2 damage might look like good deal, but in reality it isn't. I see few possible solutions for this problem:
1) Decrease Yumi difficulty from 6 to 5. I think this is worst solution, because you could use same, lower PD build to use both these bows, and this takes variety away from the game.
2) Increase damage of Yumi by +1. This will mainly increase it's close range damage. It will still be much worse bow than Horn Bow for long range shooting, but at least it will do a noticable more close range damage than Horn Bow.
3) Increase Yumi missile speed to Short Bow value, so +2 (from 35 to 37). This way Yumi will mainly get better long range accuracy and damage, also a bit more close range damage.
I honestly think something should be done to justify 6 PD requirement by Yumi. Because right now you have to sacrify too many things going for Yumi build, and the advantage of it is questionable.
I just want a bit of justice, since Yumi is in most cases bad choice comparing to Horn Bow. You lose so many things by chosing Yumi build, it's just too big difference at the moment comparing to Horn Bow build. Make it proper choice, if you lose huge amount of accuracy by using 6 PD build, you should at least get noticable better damage. And right now it's just slight damage difference in favor of Yumi and only for close range shooting. Meantime, Yumi is completely useless bow for long range shooting.
-
The slow projectile speed gives you better speed bonus from the horse, increasing your damage quite a bit out of the horn bow's reach. If you don't abuse the speed bonus it's quite meh though!
-
I'm not sure, but aren't Horse Archers can quickly go near and distant to their enemies as they wish? Shouldn't this make long distance capabilities for bows a bit obsolete? HA is played differently from a Foot Archer, you do not need long range capabilities.
By the way Yumi also have 1 point better accuracy and same speed.
Comparing lvl 30 builds:
Hornbow: 15/24 (don't know how to increase further)
Yumi: 18/21 (becomes 18/24 in lvl 33 and gets 1 more HorseArchery)
-
Even with a horn bow I ride for shot gun shots as much as possible to increase accuracy. It's much more dangerous but also far more rewarding.
I'm not sure the distance shooting really matters unless you're one of those HA who stops to shoot.
-
Even with a horn bow I ride for shot gun shots as much as possible to increase accuracy. It's much more dangerous but also far more rewarding.
I'm not sure the distance shooting really matters unless you're one of those HA who stops to shoot.
It sure does when you don't want to get in close to those 1 hit kill throwers and it also is better to fight HX at range as most of them can only hit from close range and also 1 hit kill you.
BTW, missile speed is jacked when the fastest missile speed on a bow is slower than the slowest missile speed on xbow. If the entire line were corrected properly, the ultra-slow missile speed of the Yumi compared to other bows wouldn't be such a deal.
-
Since over a week, I'm playing my STF HA with two builds:
1) 15/24 Horn Bow +3 / Bodkins +3.
2) 18/21 Yumi +3 / Bodkins +3.
The first one gives me KDR about 2.0 everytime. The second one KDR about 1.5, so big difference here.
I reskill basically everyday, so everyday I play with one and another build.
When I'm doing great with 15/24 build, I reskill asap and try to match that performance with 18/21 Yumi build. The problem is, I can't. Accuracy is just too important, and with 18/21 build I lose just huge amount of accuracy. It doesn't matter with Yumi I can do like 10-15% damage more than with Horn Bow, if accuracy is twice the time worse. Especially Yumi and 6 PD don't change damage so much because of Yumi slow missile speed. If I need 3 hits to kill some target with Yumi, most of the time I will also need 3 with Horn Bow (rarely 4). And it's much easier to hit my target with Horn Bow, because of accuracy difference.
That's the reason why I see Yumi as worse bow than Horn Bow. Yumi don't give you enough damage to be equal with accuracy lose. The only levels can change this slightly is lvl 33-34, then you can get 15/27 build with Horn Bow or 18/24 with Yumi (4 HA for both). Then accuracy won't be that bad with Yumi (still better with Horn Bow of course), but missile speed make Yumi much less effective in precise shooting. And if we are talking about high levels, at lvl 35 you can have 15/30 build with Horn Bow, and 5 Horse Archery would give you briliant accuracy even while riding. You can't get that at all with Yumi build (highest level 36 is still not enough for 18/30 HA build).
So the thing is, by going Yumi build you need to sacrify a lot of accuracy, huge amount of it. If Yumi requires 1 PD more, and therefore makes your build much less accurate than it could be, damage difference should be clearly noticable using this bow, and it isn't now. Right now Yumi isn't even close as good as Horn Bow (it might get a bit closer with lvl 33-34 and 18/24 build, but it won't be obvious choice even then). With every other level (lower than 33 and higher than 34) it's much more reasonable to play with Horn Bow build, because it's simply much better choice.
BTW: I'm sure devs won't do anything about this anyway. Just saying, after more than a week of testing, I understand now why most HA uses Horn Bow, and why they are much more effective than Yumi orientated HA are.
-
Yumi is great for harassing melee cavalry. The accuracy is not that important there, shotgunning them when they get close every time. The slow missile speed won't drag your damage down either, the speed bonus addition will be great and make the damage quite awesome. I've never seen Chase go like 25-1 on eu1 as HX or horn bow HA, but he did it with Yumi by killing pretty much all their 1h cav and lancers every round. It was his 18/21 STF with loomed bods, arabian horse and yumi. Chase is unreal though. :P
-
So... when you compare two bows, you only count K/D ratio.
Isn't there something wrong with that ? You can kill 7 horses, one tincan then die. You can kill 4 peasants, then die. Such a very refined method, than comparing K/D ratio...
As said already by Gurnisson, the slow missile speed is a damage buff when the target moves toward you, and such. As an HA, you have to use this to your advantage.
And best target are horses. Only then can you focus on Xbows, then archers, and lastly throwers (if they haven't run out of ammo yet).
Stating that a short range bow should have more damage to make up for that, when HA don't really care about coming close to kill (when they're aware... suicide charging in a bunch of range us stupid indeed) is really low.
I still fear Yumi users more than Horn bow users.
Still way way way less than thoses silly HX two-hitting me...
-
It sure does when you don't want to get in close to those 1 hit kill throwers and it also is better to fight HX at range as most of them can only hit from close range and also 1 hit kill you.
BTW, missile speed is jacked when the fastest missile speed on a bow is slower than the slowest missile speed on xbow. If the entire line were corrected properly, the ultra-slow missile speed of the Yumi compared to other bows wouldn't be such a deal.
Decrease crossbow bolt speeds to match, tbh.
Arrow flight speeds are actually sensible.
-
I would also take a few more accuracy points as a solution, I enjoy using the Yumi and it does not take me long to adjust to the slower missile speed, unless the targets running at me then I have to get a new angle as its much easier to dodge.
Side Note: ( Can any of you tell a difference in arrow drop as far as the 6PD bows are concerned? ) I cannot even though missile speed would be the deciding factor there.
Anyway if the Yumi had 103 accuracy like the longbow it would become the bane of anyone standing still because you lose 1 accuracy for each point of damage, and the threshold for how many headshots one could take would only diverge enough to make it noticeable in heaviest of helmets.
Just a thought, the other suggestions are solid too.
-
Yumi is not supposed to be a horse archer weapon!
-
The slow projectile speed gives you better speed bonus
That makes negative sense to me.
I tried the Yumi both on foot and on horseback and whilst I'm no expert at horse archery whatsoever, the Yumi felt like a piece of crap. The gigantic size and sheath position is minor, but it does impede vision and reduces my ability to hide when necessary :(.
-
Yumi is not supposed to be a horse archer weapon!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
-
^mate it spends 50% of the time impaling your horse.
The yumi model was never intended for use on horses within Warband. Yumi bow is a general term for that type of bow they used it for almost everything.
-
^mate it spends 50% of the time impaling your horse.
The yumi model was never intended for use on horses within Warband. Yumi bow is a general term for that type of bow they used it for almost everything.
And swordsmen on horseback spend 50% of their time chopping off their horse's head. I don't see your point.
-
^mate it spends 50% of the time impaling your horse.
The yumi model was never intended for use on horses within Warband. Yumi bow is a general term for that type of bow they used it for almost everything.
There was no Yumi model in native Warband, it is added in cRPG.
-
In general the Yumi is used from the ground.
When I was doing student exchange in high school I trained at a Kyudo dojo. I was lucky enough to be able to train horse archery as well due to my ability to ride a horse. It was great fun, it's not the easiest thing to do but if a numpty like me can pull it off then it's certainly do able.
-
That makes negative sense to me.
Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not, that's just how Warband handles damage from speed bonuses for ranged weapons. The Yumi bow is the best HA bow thanks to the new speed bonus mechanics. Instead of specing for accuracy and rate of fire like most HAs did previously with the Horn Bow and lighter bows, now you can actually spec for damage and see legitimate returns. My 62 body armor characters consistently get hit for more than 50% hp from a certain Yumi bow using HA that plays on NA. If there were more people with his build and equipment, I'm sure this conversation would be a lot different. To put this into perspective, 62 body armor is more than enough to make several 1h swords with balanced builds bounce off your armor.
-
Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not, that's just how Warband handles damage from speed bonuses for ranged weapons. The Yumi bow is the best HA bow thanks to the new speed bonus mechanics. Instead of specing for accuracy and rate of fire like most HAs did previously with the Horn Bow and lighter bows, now you can actually spec for damage and see legitimate returns. My 62 body armor characters consistently get hit for more than 50% hp from a certain Yumi bow using HA that plays on NA. If there were more people with his build and equipment, I'm sure this conversation would be a lot different. To put this into perspective, 62 body armor is more than enough to make several 1h swords with balanced builds bounce off your armor.
that may sound like a helpful and legitimate response to the majority of the non-ranged players... but as an archer all a heard was, when people know how to make the right HA build with yumi, youre going to nerf it a month later and completely fuck up their build
-
that may sound like a helpful and legitimate response to the majority of the non-ranged players... but as an archer all a heard was, when people know how to make the right HA build with yumi, youre going to nerf it a month later and completely fuck up their build
That's a sound conclusion I guess, can't say I blame you for it. To be fair though, this is a new mechanic for HA, it's obvious some tweaks will be needed. At least at the moment, I can tell you that if there were an item patch tomorrow, the horn bow and the yumi would go untouched(unless of course, some ninjas got loose).
Personally, my issues with ranged damage stem from armor effectiveness and damage variance. If I had my way, minimum damage would be brought up greatly and maximum damage would be lowered. There isn't really an easy way of doing this though, so I doubt we'll be seeing changes like this soon.