cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Seawied on May 02, 2011, 08:47:58 am

Title: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Seawied on May 02, 2011, 08:47:58 am
Despite the removal of cavalry's 360 degree turret style pokes, cavalry will soon be the strongest builds in the game.

Its not that cavalry have any sort of item or horse which is instant win, its that their main counter was overnerfed.

In this patch, the pike received a number of changes, including significant damage reduction on heirloomed versions of the weapon.

The nerfs that cause problems with the overall balance of the game are as follows
#1 The pike now takes up 2 slots, instead of 1.
#2 The pike must be equipped at all times or it is dropped to the ground.


The purpose to these nerfs is to force players to specialize more and not be a swiss-army knife. While I support the idea of forcing players to choose what they need to rely on their teammates for, using both of these nerfs on the same item was a bad idea. Why?

Because either one of these nerfs by itself would have been sufficient to attain the goal of the patch.

If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon, or be an archer/crossbower who is nearly completely unable to fend for themselves if they are cornered.

If you must equip the pike at all times, you are unable to lure a skilled cavalry player to attack a seemingly helpless person in the field. Additionally, by having the pike out at all times, you are forcing the piker to be very vulnerable to anyone who can facehug effectively, as well as having the piker exposed to any number of missile attacks.

The end result of each of these: a player who uses the pike is most likely going to be effective at killing a horse, but notably ineffective in many other situations. However, when you use both of these together, you have a player whose only strength is killing a horse.

If the piker is pressured in melee under the current system, the player has to drop their pike and draw out their melee weapon to fight off the opponent. Because most battles involve kiting and footwork, the player will, in most cases, be separated from their 2 slot weapon. Once this occurs, they are now much less effective at fighting off cavalry.

Cavalry had a counter, and the aforementioned counter was not considered by the greater crpg community to be overpowered. By adding BOTH of these nerfs to the pike, you have made the pike significantly less effective at doing its singular job. I strongly urge you to remove one of the two mentioned nerfs in this post, or, if my predictions are correct, the sheer number of cavalry characters will overwhelm crpg.




tl;dr version-
By making the pike take up 2 slots, and forcing the player to drop the pike if they change weapons, pikers are now crippled against melee, archers, crossbowers, and throwers, thereby making pikers less common. This will in-turn make cavalry more powerful and more common.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: ThePoopy on May 02, 2011, 09:27:47 am
i have no idea what excessive means but i voted no couse its not overnerfed
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: NuberT on May 02, 2011, 10:20:03 am
I have a mw pike and I say its fine as it is.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 02, 2011, 10:42:06 am
If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon
Your post had the last nail put in it's coffin with this line.
I'm a pikeman and I am loving this patch so much. I have literally not had a KDR less than one since the patch while using a pike. I was topping the score boards all night.

Maybe you should try it before claiming that it is bad? It is amazing. If you are expecting pikemen to be catch-all kill everything by themselves solo men don't post again. nobody is that and nobody ever should be. Pikemen are amazing when used in teamwork. Ever heard of it?


On the notion of cavalry being OP by pike being nerfed [lol what??]
If there is a pikeman, EVERYBODY within 10 feet of him is completely and utterly safe from cav.

p.s. Long pike got added too. It can't even be used in 1v1 but man does it shine in formation play.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Magikarp on May 02, 2011, 11:49:52 am
Newsflash: Cav got nerfed by doing the exact same thing, on top of that got a speed nerf, damage nerf and heirloom nerf.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: MouthnHoof on May 02, 2011, 12:27:07 pm
Quote
If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon, or be an archer/crossbower who is nearly completely unable to fend for themselves if they are cornered.
How is that? He still has two free slots for a real footman's weapon. He has the option to jettison the pike and go melee, or keep the pike and repel cavs or do a support role stabbing around his melee friends. Even if he dropped the pike to pull out the 2H or 1H+shield, he can still pick it up later, can't he?

While the pocket pike trick to lure cavs close is fun, it is not really fair is it? and I say it as a cav hater.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: OoberNoob on May 02, 2011, 01:26:58 pm
I play as both cav and pikemen about the same amount and Ive noticed as calvary its real easy to just wait about a minute after the match starts before running in, by then all of the pikemen have usually dropped their pikes and engaged in melee with infantry, then its real easy just to go around and pick off whoever is on the edges and sometimes just charging headlong into a group without taking any damage due to the lack of long pointy sticks. 

But while playing as a pikeman I have only encountered 1 match where i didnt have my pike when i needed it.  When i carry a pike I leave the enemy infantry alone for the most part, and I dont drop the pike until im pretty sure that all enemy horses are dead.   Unfortunately, if you do need your pike and you have already dropped it, its a problem because usually the enemy cav wont get close enough to hit with your regular weapon so all you can do is down block and frantically search for your pike until you are bumped to death 5 FEET AWAY FROM IT!    :mad: 
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 02, 2011, 01:31:03 pm
Try using the pike in infantry fights. That is 90% of my pike kills. Helping teammates out. usually just an assist, but lots and lots of kills too.
Sure it is pretty bad if you are 1 v 1, but that means the rest of your team is dead. (Or you are doing it wrong.)

For the record, my pikemen have never carried a side arm, but if needed they can easily grab any sheathable 2 slot pole arm to use. Like a bec, a hafted blade, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Really there is no issue.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Kafein on May 02, 2011, 01:48:15 pm
A few things :

The nerf on heirlooms nerfed everybody. A big part of heavy lances are masterworked nowadays, so they were nerfed the same way as pike with the heirloom nerf.

On the 2 slot and drop thing, it is true but devs had to be coherent with the rest of the changes. Now pikers can have the long pike, with really is enormous. Staying in a shielder group will grant pikers a significant advantage, either with protecting against cav, either in group vs group melee, where the long pike can poke like mad.

There were pure pikers prepatch, now there still will be.

I think piker is such a subtle and niche build that people that like it aren't likely to change. The experience with a pike is invaluable for a group of allies, so you can really spend all your rounds with it. But these elite people are really rare, which is sad. An organised clan composed of pikers, shielders and archers is solid against cav (there is nothing harder to kill than protected archery for a cav guy, trust me), range and other melees.

So I like the nerf in a way, because it favors rolling pure piker versus simply having a pike in your pocket, because it makes this ridiculous trick of taking it at the last moment (which tends to favor maneuvrable horses even more than they already are) harder (you can still pick it on the ground).


I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 02, 2011, 01:58:19 pm
I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.
Long pikes won't be able to, regular pikes can.
I know from experience.
Long pikes can only thrust, and it is too slow and low damage for such a thing. Regular pikes do fine though because BROverheads.
long pikes are for phalanxes and formations involving shielders.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Spawny on May 02, 2011, 02:09:17 pm
I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.

We did that some time ago with regular pikes. 4-5 templars and 5 or so fallen in the same team, all armed with pikes.
If you stick together, you can mess people up badly. It's hard to block a stab and overhead at the same time.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 02, 2011, 02:15:26 pm
overnerfed ? its like the one of the few weapons that didnt had ANY nerf stat wise

Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: MouthnHoof on May 02, 2011, 05:16:29 pm
Try using the pike in infantry fights. That is 90% of my pike kills. Helping teammates out. usually just an assist, but lots and lots of kills too.
Sure it is pretty bad if you are 1 v 1, but that means the rest of your team is dead. (Or you are doing it wrong.)

For the record, my pikemen have never carried a side arm, but if needed they can easily grab any sheathable 2 slot pole arm to use. Like a bec, a hafted blade, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Really there is no issue.
That is the intended role of a pikeman.

btw, pikemen can make good use of 2H swords! use them with the alt mode and you have a reasonable sheathable polearm :)
OK, it is not as good as in 2H mode or as the better (un-sheathable) polearns, but it is more than decent for a SECONDARY weapon (a bit expensive though..). You do not really need to bring one from home. There are plenty of loomed ones lying around after a short time.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Punisher on May 02, 2011, 05:25:33 pm
Hybrids were nerfed, not the Pike. It's stats are the same, how can you call that nerfing? Following this reasoning, except 1H every weapon was nerfed.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Joxer on May 02, 2011, 05:53:19 pm

#2 The pike must be equipped at all times or it is dropped to the ground.[/b]

Ok so this explains why I cant have 2 and drop 1 at spawn. Damn you chadz. Also wtf is up with the long pike taking 3 slots? Just to make sure that you dont have room for another proper pole. Ridicilous.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: UrLukur on May 02, 2011, 08:22:29 pm
It's all people asked for. Pikes are fine.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Seawied on May 02, 2011, 09:27:02 pm
Your post had the last nail put in it's coffin with this line.
I'm a pikeman and I am loving this patch so much. I have literally not had a KDR less than one since the patch while using a pike. I was topping the score boards all night.

Maybe you should try it before claiming that it is bad? It is amazing. If you are expecting pikemen to be catch-all kill everything by themselves solo men don't post again. nobody is that and nobody ever should be. Pikemen are amazing when used in teamwork. Ever heard of it?


On the notion of cavalry being OP by pike being nerfed [lol what??]
If there is a pikeman, EVERYBODY within 10 feet of him is completely and utterly safe from cav.

p.s. Long pike got added too. It can't even be used in 1v1 but man does it shine in formation play.


Why don't you ever see the pike used in duels? Because it REQUIRES teamwork in order to work. If you get face-hugged, you are defenseless.

By making the pike less accessible, less pikemen across the board will become less common. You can kill horses easily with them, but once the rider is on foot, he is significantly stronger than you are.

Hybrids were nerfed, not the Pike. It's stats are the same, how can you call that nerfing? Following this reasoning, except 1H every weapon was nerfed.

Unlike the majority of the other weapons in the game, pike suffers from the slot nerf and forcing the player to have the pike equipped at all times. Because they can't be shielded up with their personal shield when going into position, this is a strong nerf. And for the record, yes, all weapons other than 1h were nerfed. A nerf in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as it contributes to overall balance.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Dexxtaa on May 02, 2011, 10:13:02 pm
It's barely nerfed.

Stop complaining. Lift things up and put them down.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 02, 2011, 10:15:29 pm
It's barely nerfed.

Stop complaining. Lift things up and put them down.

What this man said, and when he speaks you best listen!
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: WaltF4 on May 02, 2011, 10:53:49 pm
The pike is not a general purpose weapon. Not being able to put away a pike removes most of the utility for everyone but dedicated pikemen. I think that is a substantial nerf, but not an unjustifiable one. Items that are the best at something should not be good at everything.




I'm a pikeman and I am loving this patch so much. I have literally not had a KDR less than one since the patch while using a pike. I was topping the score boards all night.

Where are you playing? I've played about 100 rounds on the NA battle servers since the patch and have seen maybe a dozen pikes the whole time. All I've managed to do is rage about how bad the servers have been running and how slow leveling has been since I had to retire just to use my awlpike again. I just want to be in a pike square too  :(
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 03, 2011, 02:08:57 am
The pike is not a general purpose weapon. Not being able to put away a pike removes most of the utility for everyone but dedicated pikemen. I think that is a substantial nerf, but not an unjustifiable one. Items that are the best at something should not be good at everything.




Where are you playing? I've played about 100 rounds on the NA battle servers since the patch and have seen maybe a dozen pikes the whole time. All I've managed to do is rage about how bad the servers have been running and how slow leveling has been since I had to retire just to use my awlpike again. I just want to be in a pike square too  :(
Aha, hey walt. Me and the PGI guys were rolling as loose pikemen/hoplites in tunaTown and siege for a while. Didn't stop by the battles much sadly.
We secured easy x5 in the other servers :P
I'll message you our teamspeak if you ever want to play with people who try to use teamwork. Stop by any time.
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Malaclypse on May 03, 2011, 02:36:05 am
Was rolling as a pikeman earlier today in one of the NA servers, sticking with a group (Air and I were double piking it with awesome results the first round), and went 14 and 0 before my first death. Still an awesome weapon with tactical advantages galore, anyone who doesn't think so is a lone wolf ninja, I'd guess.

I'd love to roll around with you PGI guys sometime!
Title: Re: Pike Overnerfed
Post by: Dexxtaa on May 03, 2011, 05:04:23 am
Was rolling as a pikeman earlier today in one of the NA servers, sticking with a group (Air and I were double piking it with awesome results the first round), and went 14 and 0 before my first death. Still an awesome weapon with tactical advantages galore, anyone who doesn't think so is a lone wolf ninja, I'd guess.

I'd love to roll around with you PGI guys sometime!

Hang out with Chaos more. There are always at least 2 of us with pikes running around like nuts.

We also have overhead-backswing-tk games.